NES Completion Thread Requirement Discussion

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

So lately there's been some discussion in the yearly NES Completion thread about what the requirements should be for various games.  While the Pastebin file has been helpful, it has some major gaps in it, and has some out of date information.  Due to the need for a revamp, the continuing discussion, and the fact that @scaryice has enough to do without having to add more to it, I've started compiling a list of requirements, based on the Pastebin, AdamL's endings FAQ, and some feedback from members.  I have compiled up to the letter B, and felt it was probably time to open it up to the rest of the users.  NOTE: It's too late for these to apply for 2024, so in the rare instances where something changes, it will only apply at Scary's discretion.  The general rules I've been using are the same as what have applied in prior years: codes only count if they're revealed in game or with something that came packaged with the game (typically applies to continue codes), "bad" endings are acceptable if the full game is experienced, "good" endings are only necessary if the "bad" ending doesn't allow the full gameplay experience, infinite loops require all unique levels to be beaten and the default high score to be achieved (aka one full loop), and multiple quests/loops are only required if multiple loops provide a "definitive" ending (Taxan games would require one loop, as the ending is the same save for a bonus message, but something like Gun.Smoke definitively ends after two three loops, thus all three loops would be needed).  The goal is to have clear requirements for every game and avoid situations like what happened with Kung Fu Heroes this year.

Anyway, I've set it up in an Excel file and have hosted it on Google Drive.  Here's the link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dPMfuLLwaHzBIXm1ZvwuLHZvXXXs8pzl/edit?usp=sharing&ouid=102257403836446438292&rtpof=true&sd=true

I've opened it up to comments as well, so feedback can be posted here or commented on the file itself, whatever you prefer.  I'll periodically update with another letter or two as I get to it.

Oh, and I posted in the Gauntlet instead of the Contests section because I felt that even though it was about a thread in that section, it still fit better here due to essentially being about the gameplay and not the contest thread itself.  If I was mistaken, I apologize.

EDIT: Corrected a mistake in the Gun.Smoke example.  It ends after three loops, not two.

Edited February 10 by the_wizard_666

[PII | 1,886]

I played Gun.Smoke twice in row just recently and the ending was exactly the same the second time.  Is there some additional qualification to get a different ending, like beating it twice without dying?........

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

3 hours ago, PII said:

I played Gun.Smoke twice in row just recently and the ending was exactly the same the second time.  Is there some additional qualification to get a different ending, like beating it twice without dying?........

It's not that it's a different ending, it's that the game definitively ends.  Also, that was a mistake on my part...it's actually three loops, not two.  And apparently I was one of the ones who notified AdamL of that for the update on his Endings FAQ, so I really should've remembered that   But yeah, after the third loop, instead of saying "Press Start," it just says "The End" and you can no longer continue the game.

EDIT: This came to light for a lot of us during the 2022 weekly contest, when we played the game.  I think most normal people assumed it was an endless looper prior to this.

Edited February 10 by the_wizard_666

[Sisor | 14]

I really glad you made this thread. I think there is sill a lot that can be fleshed out in deciding what constitutes beating many of the NES games. I really looking forward to the discussion about some of these. Two games that I think should be discussed are:

Spelunker - Conceivably 4 loops can be required because they are slightly different (1st Loop - Orange: Normal Keys; 2nd Loop - Green: Invisible Keys; 3rd Loop - Grey: Jump to get Invisible Keys; 4th Loop - Gold: Fire Flair to get Invisible Keys).

Here is my Longplay on YouTube showing these different loops:

Sqoon - Loops after 8 phases but there is a second loop that has a different background. Here is my Longplay on YouTube:

 

 

 

[bronzeshield | 293]

I had no idea that AdamL had put out a new version of his document! Great to see it's still being updated. There are some errors -- Action 52, for instance, has games like The Ooze that behave differently depending on the ROM variant you use -- but it's still a very handy reference.

Quick summary of the tennis games on the system (North American licensed library), since that's an area of expertise for me:

Tennis - win two matches on any difficulty to trigger the ending. Whatever starting difficulty you choose, as AdamL notes, the only thing that really changes in the ending is the dollar amount you win.

Racket Attack - pretty straightforward, just win 7 matches and you're declared champion. There's no real reason to bother with different court surfaces or players. Playing in women's mode means you have to win just 2 sets instead of 3, but it's not as if it's easier or anything, just shorter.

Jimmy Connors Tennis - AdamL sums this up well: difficulty doesn't affect the pathetic ending you get after 16 tournaments won. Each tournament is only 1 round against the exact same opponent who uses the exact same tactics. I didn't find this game especially difficult, BTW -- there's an initial learning curve, but once you learn the basic pattern it's trivial -- and I don't even remember noticing much any effect on the gameplay from the difficulty setting.

Evert & Lendl in Top Players' Tennis - the stupidest and weirdest one. You have to win all 4 Grand Slams to beat the game -- Australian Open, French Open, Wimbledon, US Open -- but in your first year, you can't earn enough ranking points in time to qualify for the Australian Open, so you can only win in your second year. Consequently the entire first year of gameplay is pointless, as its only purpose is to get your ranking up enough to qualify for the Australian Open.

If there's a way to win the game in the first year, I don't know about it; otherwise, you can speed up the process a bit by skipping tournaments and only reaching the bare minimum ranking to qualify for the Australian.

------

Some outliers that come to mind:

3-D World Runner - offers a hard mode accessible by code after beating the main game. I don't see any reason to require it, though; you've already gotten the credits and full ending sequence.

Mendel Palace - has a second quest but as far as I know it's only accessible with a secret code that's not revealed in the game, so obviously that can't be required.

Ring King - I'll have to check this out based on AdamL's recent update. Seems counterintuitive that a short tournament is considered "done" based on the garbled CONGRATULATIONS message -- but becoming world #1 doesn't trigger any ending, so maybe that one should indeed change to Tournament mode.

Urban Champion - what on earth to do with this one? It seems to be an infinite looper but you actually build toward being certified as a "CHAMPION" in Round 139, after which that status indicator stops updating.

Also, I'm not so sure about Gun.Smoke needing multiple loops. It gives you a pretty definitive good ending after the first one, and doesn't say anything about "not the real ending", "try the next loop", etc. While I can see wanting to get all three loops for someone's personal list, I don't see the need for the yearly completions thread.

------

Two other quick notes: in case of any arguments, I generally beat games on Hard or Very Hard before counting them as beaten on my own personal list, so no one @ me, please. (Yes, that includes Chessmaster, which I beat on Infinite [sic]!)

And second, I've always thought -- and this is totally independent of any consideration of the work this would put on @scaryice's shoulders! -- that the defaults should be pretty basic, but that after a game is beaten on those basic settings, someone else can come along and claim more points by beating it on the hardest settings or getting the definitive ending.

In other words, if someone beats Chessmaster on Newcomer/1, I could then beat it on Infinite and get extra points; if someone beats Simon's Quest with the bad ending, or even only does one loop on Gun.Smoke, someone else can claim extra points if they get the good ending or "THE END" (respectively). Just food for thought, I guess.

Edited February 10 by bronzeshield

[mbd39 | 2,024]

Isolated Warrior has end credits if you beat the slightly harder second loop. Another game that could have a stricter completion requirement.

 

[rdrunner | 422]

Spelunker I would think could count as beaten after one loop.  Additional loops have the exact same maps, with the only difference being invisible keys and how they're collected.

Also something you may not know:  Loop 6 is the final unique loop (not 4).  On loops 4 and 5, you collect the invisible keys by shooting flares, but on loop 6 you also have to jump AS you shoot the flare (had to figure this out myself without a guide).

[bronzeshield | 293]

Also, since we're using AdamL's list as one of our references, I think this is a complete list of the (licensed) games he hasn't gotten to yet:

DESTINY OF AN EMPEROR (Capcom)
DR. MARIO (Nintendo)
DRAGON WARRIOR II (Enix)
DUCK TALES 2 (Capcom)
FINAL FANTASY (Nintendo)
FLINTSTONES, THE (Taito)
FLYING DRAGON (Culture Brain)
GARGOYLE'S QUEST II (Capcom)
GOAL! (Jaleco)
GYROMITE (Nintendo)
ICE HOCKEY (Nintendo)
JETSONS (Taito)
KICKLE CUBICLE (Irem)
KING'S QUEST V (Konami)
KINGS OF THE BEACH (Nintendo)
KIRBY'S ADVENTURE (Nintendo)
KIWI KRAZE (Taito)
LAST NINJA, THE (Jaleco)
LEGENDS OF THE DIAMOND (Bandai)
LITTLE NINJA BROTHERS (Culture Brain)
LITTLE SAMSON (Taito)
LOOPZ (Mindscape)
LUNAR POOL (FCI)
MAGIC DARTS (Romstar)
MAGIC OF SCHEHERAZADE (Culture Brain)
MARIO'S TIME MACHINE (Mindscape)
METROID (Nintendo)
MONOPOLY (Parker Brothers)
MONSTER IN MY POCKET (Konami)
NES PLAY ACTION FOOTBALL (Nintendo)
NOBUNAGA'S AMBITION (Koei)
PINBALL QUEST (Jaleco)
POWER BLADE (Taito)
POWER BLADE 2 (Taito)
REMOTE CONTROL (Hi-Tech Expressions)
SILENT SERVICE (Ultra)
SKATE OR DIE (Ultra)
SMASH TV (Acclaim)
SNAKES'S REVENGE (Ultra)
SNOW BROTHERS (Capcom)
SOLOMON'S KEY (Tecmo)
SPOT (Arcadia)
SPY VS SPY (Kemco)
STAR TROPICS (Nintendo)
STAR TROPICS 2: ZODA'S REVENGE (Nintendo)
STRIDER (Capcom)
SUPER DODGE BALL (Sony Imagesoft)
SWORDS & SERPENTS (Acclaim)
T&C SURF DESIGN (LJN)
T&C SURF DESIGN 2 - THRILLA'S SURFARI (LJN)
TECMO BOWL (Tecmo)
TECMO SUPER BOWL (Tecmo)
TECMO WORLD WRESTLING (Tecmo)
TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES 3 (Konami)
TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES: TOURNAMENT FIGHTERS (Konami)
TETRIS 2 (Nintendo)
TIMES OF LORE (Toho)
TINY TOON ADVENTURES (Konami)
TINY TOON ADVENTURES 2 (Konami)
TOP PLAYERS' TENNIS - FEATURING CHRIS EVERT & IVAN LENDL (Asmik)
TOTALLY RAD (Jaleco)
TRACK & FIELD 2 (Konami)
ULTIMA: EXODUS (FCI)
UNCHARTED WATERS (Koei)
WALL STREET KID (Sofel)
WHOMP 'EM (Jaleco)
WIDGET (Atlus)
WIZARDS & WARRIORS 2: IRONSWORD (Acclaim)
WIZARDS & WARRIORS 3 (Acclaim)
WORLD CHAMP (Romstar)
WRATH OF THE BLACK MANTA (Taito)

A lot of these have very straightforward endings as far as I know, like Strider, Whomp 'em, Destiny of an Emperor, Ultima: Exodus -- I don't remember any curveballs in those. Others are trickier, though.

[Sisor | 14]

2 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

It's not that it's a different ending, it's that the game definitively ends.  Also, that was a mistake on my part...it's actually three loops, not two.  And apparently I was one of the ones who notified AdamL of that for the update on his Endings FAQ, so I really should've remembered that   But yeah, after the third loop, instead of saying "Press Start," it just says "The End" and you can no longer continue the game.

EDIT: This came to light for a lot of us during the 2022 weekly contest, when we played the game.  I think most normal people assumed it was an endless looper prior to this.

This in interesting. Did you discover this? I did not know about this. I think I may have to go back and revisit this game for my personal Longplay project. So even if it doesn't change the contest, this is useful information for me!

[Sisor | 14]

42 minutes ago, rdrunner said:

Spelunker I would think could count as beaten after one loop.  Additional loops have the exact same maps, with the only difference being invisible keys and how they're collected.

Also something you may not know:  Loop 6 is the final unique loop (not 4).  On loops 4 and 5, you collect the invisible keys by shooting flares, but on loop 6 you also have to jump AS you shoot the flare (had to figure this out myself without a guide).

I think I learned this when I was doing research for the game but since for the 5th loop there was no change and 6th loop was basically a combination of the criteria for the other loops, I decided to just stick with doing four loops. I may revisit this at some point as I like to try and always show games as complete as possible but I'll enviably miss some things and there will also always be new discoveries about these games being made.

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

41 minutes ago, Sisor said:

This in interesting. Did you discover this? I did not know about this. I think I may have to go back and revisit this game for my personal Longplay project. So even if it doesn't change the contest, this is useful information for me!

I can't take credit for discovering it, just for notifying AdamL.  As I mentioned, it was collectively discovered during the 2022 weekly contest, though I feel like a few people may have known about it before that.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,089]

I think the more information provided in the document/list, the better, so that people will be able to use it for personal use outside of the annual completions thread as well.  For example, in Kung-Fu Heroes, the game immediately goes to 9-1 after the short ending sequence, which is the same as 1-1 but with harder enemies, so the entry for Kung-Fu Heroes should include a line that says something like: "the game continues to loop the same 8 worlds, but always gives the same ending."  Now, if someone were ever bold enough to play long enough to find out if the difficulty stops ramping up at some point or whether it ramps up forever, that would be useful information as well.

Arcade-style games in the annual completion project always require that you complete every level, meaning every physically different level layout, which is fine, but in the arcade world the first girder level of Donkey Kong is a hell of a lot different than the fifth or eighth or tenth girder level in terms of how the levels are actually played, never mind the fact that they are still individually numbered, so stating in an arcade game's entry on what "loop" the difficulty is maxed out would be beneficial for anyone using the document for their own personal use, whenever this is actually known.

Then there's nitty gritty stuff like Sky Kid, where the pastebin says "loops after mission 26" which gives the impression that you must beat mission 26 to call the game beaten, but that is not really accurate; you must successfully destroy the UFO on mission 26 to trigger the ending sequence, as just completing the level without destroying the UFO will not trigger the ending at all.  This should definitely be mentioned, and triggering the ending by destroying the UFO should be required to call the game beaten in all cases.

There are a bunch of other examples in the pastebin file like that, and I'll go through it more thoroughly when I have time, but I think the more info provided, the better for most of these games.  For example, when listing the Koei games, it should be noted that while all scenarios trigger the same ending (for most games) that some are more or less difficult than others.  Playing world conquest mode in Genghis Kahn triggers the same ending, but you're skipping half the game.  Scenario 6 on ROTK II triggers the same ending as all of the other five scenarios but it is much easier since you are gifted a third of the map right off the bat, etc, etc...

[bronzeshield | 293]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Then there's nitty gritty stuff like Sky Kid, where the pastebin says "loops after mission 26" which gives the impression that you must beat mission 26 to call the game beaten, but that is not really accurate; you must successfully destroy the UFO on mission 26 to trigger the ending sequence, as just completing the level without destroying the UFO will not trigger the ending at all.  This should definitely be mentioned, and triggering the ending by destroying the UFO should be required to call the game beaten in all cases.

I thought that if you don't destroy the UFO in Mission 26, the game just autocrashes your plane in an open area at the end of the level? I haven't done it myself (came so close to beating Sky Kid a year or two ago...) but that's what arnpoly says:

https://takeontheneslibrary.com/finished/99-sky-kid/

[Dr. Morbis | 2,089]

7 minutes ago, bronzeshield said:

I thought that if you don't destroy the UFO in Mission 26, the game just autocrashes your plane in an open area at the end of the level? I haven't done it myself (came so close to beating Sky Kid a year or two ago...) but that's what arnpoly says:

https://takeontheneslibrary.com/finished/99-sky-kid/

There's no autocrash; it's exactly the same as when you don't destroy the UFO on mission 11 (since you can't yet because you don't have bombs).

[bronzeshield | 293]

24 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

There's no autocrash; it's exactly the same as when you don't destroy the UFO on mission 11 (since you can't yet because you don't have bombs).

I think I see what I may have misunderstood. Here's arnpoly's exact text:

"I saw the Mission 26 spaceship for the first time on my last life of a run. I picked up the bomb I needed, but I got shot soon after which causes you to drop the bomb. I watched the spaceship go by hoping the stage would repeat somehow. It turns out the final mission has no runway, just the final expanse of water. Watching my plane crash into the sea was devastating."

Since Mission 26 has no runway, it can't be completed normally -- but are you saying that if you get to the UFO in Mission 26 with multiple lives, fail to destroy it (on either opportunity) and crash into the sea, you're then sent to Mission 27 but with no ending sequence?

 

[PII | 1,886]

8 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

EDIT: This came to light for a lot of us during the 2022 weekly contest, when we played the game.  I think most normal people assumed it was an endless looper prior to this.

Yeah, I do remember that.  I was going to mention in my previous post that a third loop started.  I just remember the talk being that it was 2 loops rather than 3, but I guess now I know..

[Dr. Morbis | 2,089]

7 hours ago, bronzeshield said:

Since Mission 26 has no runway, it can't be completed normally -- but are you saying that if you get to the UFO in Mission 26 with multiple lives, fail to destroy it (on either opportunity) and crash into the sea, you're then sent to Mission 27 but with no ending sequence?

It's been so long since I played Sky Kid that I honestly don't remember the particulars.  I do remember that if you crash after the landing pad on any level, it still takes you to the next level, providing the crash wasn't your last life, in which case it would go back to the title screen.  I just watched a youtube video and saw that there is indeed no landing pad on Level 26, but the guy who was playing crashed into the sea on his last life, so it went to the title screen.  I couldn't find a video of anyone crashing into the ending water with lives left in reserve.  It's also worth noting that there is a standard ground target that one could choose to bomb, so it's not readily apparent (especially in the pre-internet era) that the UFO is the target you want to be using your bomb on, so what happens when you bomb the ground target like you have in so many other levels?  I guess in the final analysis, someone would need to play through Mission 26 and purposely not bomb the UFO to know for sure...

[Crabmaster2000 | 501]

One that I think should be re-examined is the Galaga win condition. I feel like it should be Beat Stage 31, not Stage 3. There are new bonus stages introduced up until Stage 31 and if our goal for arcade style games is to beat each Stage I feel like that should include the bonuses since they keep introducing new enemy types even if they can't attack you. 

[Crabmaster2000 | 501]

Some more ending requirement thoughts:

I'm also unclear as to why we accept loops for some games, but not others. Like Ghosts 'n Goblins and Air Fortress require the loops, but none of the Taxan games or Isolated Warrior, Magician, Kick Master, etc? I feel like the game telling you during the ending that there is a harder mode and that harder mode giving a definitive ending is similar enough to a game telling you that the ending is coming after another playthrough that they should be treated the same way. It makes more sense to me than 2 loops of a game like Rally Bike that doesn't offer either of those things. 

 

Alpha Mission is a weird one too. There is actually a Area 13 if you defeat the final boss with 3 hits from the Thunder Special. Then you play Area 13 which is a boss rush mode, and since you used up your energy on those Thunders it is pretty challenging. BUT if you actually beat Area 13 the game doesn't loop you to Area 1, instead it sends you back to redo Area 12. It's kind of like you get punished for being cheap on the final boss by using the Thunder Specials to make it easy. If you beat the final boss in any other way though Area 13 only flashes on screen for a second before you get looped to Area 1 again. Not sure which way is "legit", but it's just a unique situation I think. 

Black Bass is a weird one too. You don't actually get anything for clearing the season so if you win a Class A tournament prior to the season ending I feel like that is sufficient. 

If we don't require best endings then Caesar's Palace or Pirates! shouldn't require the the best car or title, respectively. You could just play a game and then leave in the bus or taxi and that should count. 

High Speed I feel like should be you have to to "Beat the System" twice to get the "You've Beaten the System This Time" message rather than a high score which doesn't actually signify anything in game . It feels like a table goal for the game. 

If something like Overlord requires the hardest difficulty to get the ending screen than I also think TMNT Tournament Fighters, Rampart and Gun*Nac should require the same condition as well. 

Urban Champion and Pac-Man I also think should be to reach their best rewards of Champion Rank by beating Round 138 and the Blue Key by beating Level 12 on each game. 

 

 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

3 hours ago, Crabmaster2000 said:

One that I think should be re-examined is the Galaga win condition. I feel like it should be Beat Stage 31, not Stage 3. There are new bonus stages introduced up until Stage 31 and if our goal for arcade style games is to beat each Stage I feel like that should include the bonuses since they keep introducing new enemy types even if they can't attack you. 

 

3 hours ago, Crabmaster2000 said:

Some more ending requirement thoughts:

I'm also unclear as to why we accept loops for some games, but not others. Like Ghosts 'n Goblins and Air Fortress require the loops, but none of the Taxan games or Isolated Warrior, Magician, Kick Master, etc? I feel like the game telling you during the ending that there is a harder mode and that harder mode giving a definitive ending is similar enough to a game telling you that the ending is coming after another playthrough that they should be treated the same way. It makes more sense to me than 2 loops of a game like Rally Bike that doesn't offer either of those things. 

 

Alpha Mission is a weird one too. There is actually a Area 13 if you defeat the final boss with 3 hits from the Thunder Special. Then you play Area 13 which is a boss rush mode, and since you used up your energy on those Thunders it is pretty challenging. BUT if you actually beat Area 13 the game doesn't loop you to Area 1, instead it sends you back to redo Area 12. It's kind of like you get punished for being cheap on the final boss by using the Thunder Specials to make it easy. If you beat the final boss in any other way though Area 13 only flashes on screen for a second before you get looped to Area 1 again. Not sure which way is "legit", but it's just a unique situation I think. 

Black Bass is a weird one too. You don't actually get anything for clearing the season so if you win a Class A tournament prior to the season ending I feel like that is sufficient. 

If we don't require best endings then Caesar's Palace or Pirates! shouldn't require the the best car or title, respectively. You could just play a game and then leave in the bus or taxi and that should count. 

High Speed I feel like should be you have to to "Beat the System" twice to get the "You've Beaten the System This Time" message rather than a high score which doesn't actually signify anything in game . It feels like a table goal for the game. 

If something like Overlord requires the hardest difficulty to get the ending screen than I also think TMNT Tournament Fighters, Rampart and Gun*Nac should require the same condition as well. 

Urban Champion and Pac-Man I also think should be to reach their best rewards of Champion Rank by beating Round 138 and the Blue Key by beating Level 12 on each game.

Re: Galaga - Yeah, I feel the same, though I'll likely never be able to pull it off myself The main levels are more or less unchanging, but the different bonus levels should definitely be a goal to achieve.  That was likely one I was going to modify when I get to G

Re: Looping - The difference, at least to me, is in the ending itself.  Ghosts and Goblins and Air Fortress explicitly state within the ending itself that it's not the actual ending.  The Taxan games, Kick Master, etc, give the same ending regardless of which loop you're on, but tack on a message stating that there's harder challenge modes available.  It's a small distinction, but IMO an important one.

Re: Alpha Mission - Yeah, that does sound like a tough call.  The way I understand from AdamL, level 13 is identical to level 1, but then after beating it you go to level 2.  There's no mention of the boss rush mode on level 13.  Based on the information given, I would be inclined to say that the boss rush wouldn't be necessary.  I'm also rethinking whether level 13 is necessary at all.  I'd say beating the boss of 12 should suffice, and beyond that is entirely optional.  I'd love to hear more feedback on this one though.

Re: Black Bass - Winning the Class A tournament is required for sure.  I do think that finishing the season should also matter, even if you don't really get a reward for it, as the game basically ends at that point.  To me, although it doesn't go on forever, it's similar to the endless loop games.  That is, finishing the season would equate to the loop point, but the Class A tournament would function as the default high score.  But that's my opinion, I'd be curious if anyone else has any feedback on this one.

Re: best endings - I fully agree.  I was actually thinking the same thing for Caesar's Palace, as I just got the top ending on the Game Boy version and was thinking how utterly pointless it is to push that far.  That said, I don't think getting the ending for literally quitting without playing would be a fair one to count either.  I would say any ending that requires playing the game to achieve would be enough.  With Caesar's Palace, that would require reaching $20k instead of $140k for the best ending.  Now, with Pirates I'm not sure what that would require offhand, but it shouldn't be too tough to figure out a bare minimum that should be achieved to consider it done.

Re: High Speed - I didn't realize it gave an actual ending message.  IMO, that would take precedence over the high score in that case.  That said, since it's pinball, the argument could be made that triggering that message AND getting the high score would be required, in a similar fashion to the endless loop games (loop point + default score).  I suppose that's another that needs a discussion.

Re: Hardest difficulties - The general rule is that if the ending is the same, difficulty doesn't matter, but if there's a major difference (beyond just stating there's a harder second quest available or a slight cosmetic change), then the difficulty does matter.  I'm not familiar enough with those specific games to weigh in on them though.

Re: Urban Champion/Pac-Man - I'm not sure how I feel about that to be honest.  Especially with Urban Champion...138 levels sounds like major overkill, not to mention tedious. Pac-Man to a lesser extent as well.  Both are basically just the same repetitive level over and over, with only a small cosmetic reward given for further advancement.  Those two should probably also be discussed more in depth, as there are valid arguments both for and against it.  Ultimately we need to reach a consensus for games like that so we can apply it more consistently throughout the library.

[rdrunner | 422]

10 hours ago, Crabmaster2000 said:

Some more ending requirement thoughts:

I'm also unclear as to why we accept loops for some games, but not others. Like Ghosts 'n Goblins and Air Fortress require the loops, but none of the Taxan games or Isolated Warrior, Magician, Kick Master, etc? I feel like the game telling you during the ending that there is a harder mode and that harder mode giving a definitive ending is similar enough to a game telling you that the ending is coming after another playthrough that they should be treated the same way. It makes more sense to me than 2 loops of a game like Rally Bike that doesn't offer either of those things. 

 

Alpha Mission is a weird one too. There is actually a Area 13 if you defeat the final boss with 3 hits from the Thunder Special. Then you play Area 13 which is a boss rush mode, and since you used up your energy on those Thunders it is pretty challenging. BUT if you actually beat Area 13 the game doesn't loop you to Area 1, instead it sends you back to redo Area 12. It's kind of like you get punished for being cheap on the final boss by using the Thunder Specials to make it easy. If you beat the final boss in any other way though Area 13 only flashes on screen for a second before you get looped to Area 1 again. Not sure which way is "legit", but it's just a unique situation I think. 

Black Bass is a weird one too. You don't actually get anything for clearing the season so if you win a Class A tournament prior to the season ending I feel like that is sufficient. 

If we don't require best endings then Caesar's Palace or Pirates! shouldn't require the the best car or title, respectively. You could just play a game and then leave in the bus or taxi and that should count. 

High Speed I feel like should be you have to to "Beat the System" twice to get the "You've Beaten the System This Time" message rather than a high score which doesn't actually signify anything in game . It feels like a table goal for the game. 

If something like Overlord requires the hardest difficulty to get the ending screen than I also think TMNT Tournament Fighters, Rampart and Gun*Nac should require the same condition as well. 

Urban Champion and Pac-Man I also think should be to reach their best rewards of Champion Rank by beating Round 138 and the Blue Key by beating Level 12 on each game. 

Good points on these (at least the games I've played).

I've always thought that the win criteria across the board is a bit inconsistent.  At the same time though, the NES library is complex enough that there is some wiggle room for case-by-case basis.

Take arcade games.  Yes, Donkey Kong deserves more than clearing the three stages once to beat level 1.  The question is how far should we go?  Max difficulty (level 6) sounds decent, but does that mean all arcade games should be played to the same point?  Some games might be too hard for that (anyone try to beat 6 loops of Kung Fu lately?).  Whatever happens, yes please do make Galaga at least a little more interesting!

Then there's the ol' "Ghosts 'n Goblins" rule.  Does every game really need to be looped as many times as it takes to reach the "final" ending if it has one?  For example:

• Bubble Bobble?  Happy ending is one thing, but I've always found Super mode to be excessive.
• Gun.Smoke?  Doesn't increase in difficulty, so very little reason to keep playing past one loop, making the final ending more of an easter egg.
• 8 Eyes?  Loop 3 IS an easter egg (password only available in magazines and later internet).
• Arkista's Ring?  4 loops?  Seriously?  Raise your hand if you knew this one from playing the game without hearing about it first.  Anyone...?

I didn't know about the Alpha Mission thing.  I always used shields when I played and ignored all the other weapons.  That final boss takes forever to kill with just your normal weapons, but it's doable if you get closer, where your shots do more damage.  Need to play hit-and-run a lot though.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,089]

On 2/12/2024 at 10:55 AM, the_wizard_666 said:

The Taxan games, Kick Master, etc, give the same ending regardless of which loop you're on, but tack on a message stating that there's harder challenge modes available.  It's a small distinction, but IMO an important one.

I still don't understand how you can say that an ending with a different message doesn't count as a different ending.  Are you saying that graphics takes precedence over text?  To me, the fact that they added different text, even before considering the fact that the text tells you there's more to accomplish, means it is literally a different ending - that's the very definition of the word "different."

You and I were talking about Snoopy's Silly Sports Spectacular the other day, and you were of the mindset that Bronze is good enough because the ending is "the same" except for the medal awarded.  I, on the other hand, feel that being awarded a different medal is a different ending, and especially when you throw in the concept of winning and losing in sports, where getting bronze is not a win - it's THIRD PLACE!  So to actually beat Snoopy, you should technically need to win the Gold, but that brings up the next problem: difficulty.

I think in the final analysis the question is: exactly how difficult do we want to make it on ourselves versus how much fun this is supposed to be, and should we be erring on the side of more casual play for the completions thread?  It's kind of like the Stadium Events debate in full set collecting where you have to wonder how many people don't count it moreso because of how expensive it is to obtain rather than for any other reason.  We wouldn't want to require Gold in Snoopy for the completions thread because it is incredibly difficult, even though that's the true win condition of the game, meanwhile getting bronze takes not much more than an hour to gain a general competency with most of the events on tap.

So that's the question really: should we be focusing on the undisputed victory or focusing on just playing through each game to get some sort of ending and doing it more for fun?

Edited February 14 by Dr. Morbis

[nerdynebraskan | 356]

On 2/12/2024 at 8:37 AM, Crabmaster2000 said:

If we don't require best endings then Caesar's Palace or Pirates! shouldn't require the the best car or title, respectively. You could just play a game and then leave in the bus or taxi and that should count.

The issue with those two games is that you get an ending every time you play. You can lose all of your money in the casino (CP) or get yourself killed in two minutes with nothing to show for it (P!), and you simply get the worst ending. In that way, both games are somewhat analogous to an adventure game like King's Quest V or Shadowgate, which has a whole bunch of bad endings triggered by dying on one of the many traps.

[Crabmaster2000 | 501]

1 hour ago, nerdynebraskan said:

The issue with those two games is that you get an ending every time you play. You can lose all of your money in the casino (CP) or get yourself killed in two minutes with nothing to show for it (P!), and you simply get the worst ending. In that way, both games are somewhat analogous to an adventure game like King's Quest V or Shadowgate, which has a whole bunch of bad endings triggered by dying on one of the many traps.

I wouldn't equate them to an adventure game. Those just tend to get creative with their game over screens and still have a very defined ending. With Caesar's Palace and Pirates! it's really up to the player's discretion for how thorough they want to finish. 

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

13 hours ago, Crabmaster2000 said:

I wouldn't equate them to an adventure game. Those just tend to get creative with their game over screens and still have a very defined ending. With Caesar's Palace and Pirates! it's really up to the player's discretion for how thorough they want to finish. 

I think for CP and Pirates, playing the game should be required.  With CP, I would say the taxi ending isn't good enough because you can get it without playing, but the best ending shouldn't be required either, as that defeats the "get an ending" mindset.  I think the $20K ending should be enough by that criteria.  Pirates is a bit trickier based on the range of rankings available.  Maybe what should happen is to have a few people play a single voyage (end game after dividing plunder) and figure out what the average rank would be.  Or arbitrarily decide on something in the middle.  Obviously some of us will strive for more, but it may incentivize people to play it if they don't feel they have to master it.

On 2/12/2024 at 11:24 PM, Dr. Morbis said:

I still don't understand how you can say that an ending with a different message doesn't count as a different ending.  Are you saying that graphics takes precedence over text?  To me, the fact that they added different text, even before considering the fact that the text tells you there's more to accomplish, means it is literally a different ending - that's the very definition of the word "different."

You and I were talking about Snoopy's Silly Sports Spectacular the other day, and you were of the mindset that Bronze is good enough because the ending is "the same" except for the medal awarded.  I, on the other hand, feel that being awarded a different medal is a different ending, and especially when you throw in the concept of winning and losing in sports, where getting bronze is not a win - it's THIRD PLACE!  So to actually beat Snoopy, you should technically need to win the Gold, but that brings up the next problem: difficulty.

I think in the final analysis the question is: exactly how difficult do we want to make it on ourselves versus how much fun this is supposed to be, and should we be erring on the side of more casual play for the completions thread?  It's kind of like the Stadium Events debate in full set collecting where you have to wonder how many people don't count it moreso because of how expensive it is to obtain rather than for any other reason.  We wouldn't want to require Gold in Snoopy for the completions thread because it is incredibly difficult, even though that's the true win condition of the game, meanwhile getting bronze takes not much more than an hour to gain a general competency with most of the events on tap.

So that's the question really: should we be focusing on the undisputed victory or focusing on just playing through each game to get some sort of ending and doing it more for fun?

There are certainly great points here.  Snoopy is easy.  It falls into the "any ending vs best ending" argument.  Anything less than bronze and you don't get an ending, so bronze is the minimum to get an ending.  The problem is with looping games and multi-quest games.  Some, like Mystery Quest or Arkista's Ring, give an ending after multiple loops that you don't get.  Those are easy - the goal is to see the end.  I think with games like Gun.Smoke, where there's a finite number of loops but an ending is triggered after the first, those should be fine with one loop.  Then there's stuff like Ghosts and Goblins and the Taxan multi quest games.  I think with G&G, the "ending" of the first loop is more like an in game cutscene that tells you why you need to play the second loop, rather than an actual ending.  With most of the Taxan games, after beating a quest, the story is completed.  The story wraps up the same in each one, and the further quests are just challenges for the player rather than a true closing of the story.  With those, any ending would work for the thread, as all of them are a completion of the story.  That said, if someone wanted to do the third quest of GI Joe instead of the first, there's no reason they couldn't use the password for the start of the third quest, as long as they start from the beginning of whichever quest they want to play.

I'm also thinking of softening my stance on something like Burai Fighter,  as even though it hints at a better end as a reward for beating it on Ace difficulty, the story does still wrap up on lower difficulties.  I think the difficulty shouldn't matter at all, save for instances like Double Dragon Ii where everything less than the highest difficulty would prevent the story from wrapping up, or cases like Little Samson, where it gives an ending, but locks off the back half of the game. So the criteria would be "playing the entire story" rather than getting the best possible ending.

Ultimately, I think the focus should be to err on the side of fun.  Ultimate mastery has never been the goal, and could potentially push some people away rather than enticing them to play.