General Current Events/Political Discussion

[kuriatsu | 65]

33 minutes ago, cartman said:

Both are based on specific people getting to moralise for others. Disadvantaged groups should be protected from violence and actual racial hatred not satire, jokes, fictional characters.

How about asking those disadvantaged groups how they feel about satire, jokes fictional characters and how said satire, jokes, and fictional characters impact their lives.

Being a trans woman I can tell you that satire, jokes and most fictional characters often incite others to violence against us, such as noone knowing the difference between drunk people cross dressing, drag and trans people that are law abiding citizens that are trying to live their lives without abuse and harassment because of an arbitrary trait that is beyond our control.

There ARE some respectful fictional characters, and there are some TV shows that actually are respectful, but even now, most of them are downright disrespectful and are not acceptable because they often make others believe things that are flat wrong about us. Its the same way for other disadvantaged groups as well.

edit: to clarify, theres nothing wrong with cross dressing or drag either, but they represent different things than trans people and few in the entertainment industry EVER portrays that difference respectfully or accurately, or better yet both.

Edited February 21, 2020 by kuriatsu

[cartman | 195]

Just now, kuriatsu said:

How about asking those disadvantaged groups how they feel about satire, jokes fictional characters and how said satire, jokes, and fictional characters impact their lives.

Being a trans woman I can tell you that satire, jokes and most fictional characters often incite others to violence against us, such as noone knowing the difference between drunk people cross dressing, drag and trans people that are law abiding citizens that are trying to live their lives without abuse and harassment because of an arbitrary trait that is beyond their control.

There ARE some respectful fictional characters, and there are some TV shows that actually are respectful, but even now, most of them are downright disrespectful and are not acceptable because they often make others believe things that are flat wrong about us. Its the same way for other disadvantaged groups as well.

 

A lot of them feel as i do. There are people who like different things in any group and this is no exception but the ones getting offended get to take up the most space. South Park has always been pretty popular i don't think Jewish watchers raise an issue over Cartmans antisemitism, that's part of the fun.

That's the thing with dark comedy things are laughed at because they shouldn't be done. Someone has to be at the recieving end it's literally the heart of the joke, without it it something is permanently gone. But like i said it doesn't automatically have to translate into real life any less than violent games do.

If people are badly educated i think that's another issue that doesn't fall on the joke itself. I mean Dave Chapelle isn't an educator if you go to his show you won't expand your knowledge, it's not his purpose. But it doesn't mean you couldn't or shouldn't learn elsewhere. 

[Tulpa | 3,492]

Just now, cartman said:

South Park has always been pretty popular i don't think Jewish watchers raise an issue over Cartmans antisemitism, that's part of the fun.

 

That's because he's the butt of the jokes and ends up getting his ass kicked. You never see his anti-semitism go unanswered.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

3 minutes ago, cartman said:

That's the thing with dark comedy things are laughed at because they shouldn't be done. Someone has to be at the recieving end it's literally the heart of the joke, without it it something is permanently gone.

 

But the key to comedy is that you should always punch up, hitting those who deserve it, not target someone who can't help who they are.

Otherwise, you're a bigot.

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Tulpa

[kuriatsu | 65]

8 minutes ago, cartman said:

A lot of them feel as i do. There are people who like different things in any group and this is no exception but the ones getting offended get to take up the most space. South Park has always been pretty popular i don't think Jewish watchers raise an issue over Cartmans antisemitism, that's part of the fun.

That's the thing with dark comedy things are laughed at because they shouldn't be done. Someone has to be at the recieving end it's literally the heart of the joke, without it it something is permanently gone. But like i said it doesn't automatically have to translate into real life any less than violent games do.

If people are badly educated i think that's another issue that doesn't fall on the joke itself. I mean Dave Chapelle isn't an educator if you go to his show you won't expand your knowledge, it's not his purpose. But it doesn't mean you couldn't or shouldn't learn elsewhere. 

Dark humor is one thing. Making people believe that they can harm others is another.

You have no idea how many times people have been harassed for being trans,being called names and slurs and attack helicopter jokes that are made by monsters, . 

You have no idea, and I imagine you don't care as you're justifying people getting attacked and murdered for comedy and media.

Poor education is another matter entirely, but a terrible monstrous joke does nothing to remedy the situation and advocating for the joke itself does nothing to rectify poor education and only shows that you want the joke, not the education.

I advise that you learn some awareness that can teach you humility and empathy for others instead of advocating for racism and cruelty.

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by kuriatsu

[cartman | 195]

7 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

But the key to comedy is that you should always punch up, hitting those who deserve it, not target someone who can't help who they are.

Otherwise, you're a bigot.

 

No way that's not the key. The key is that something is funny when it shouldn't be if dark comedy is the purpose and by that it comes naturally that it's often aimed at those disadvantaged. 

You're not a bigot unless it's your stance. A joke's purpose is to be funny not to inform or educate you about anything come on man this is obvious. 

[Tulpa | 3,492]

6 minutes ago, cartman said:

No way that's not the key. The key is that something is funny when it shouldn't be if dark comedy is the purpose and by that it comes naturally that it's often aimed at those disadvantaged.

No, then it just becomes a racist/bigoted/whatever joke. You might tell those in back rooms or something, where you're safe. Tell it in public and watch what happens to you.

 

6 minutes ago, cartman said:

You're not a bigot unless it's your stance. A joke's purpose is to be funny not to inform or educate you about anything come on man this is obvious. 

Making fun of disadvantaged groups when they can't help who they are is the definition of bigotry.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Tulpa

[kuriatsu | 65]

7 minutes ago, cartman said:

You're not a bigot unless it's your stance. A joke's purpose is to be funny not to inform or educate you about anything come on man this is obvious. 

It doesn't matter in any way what the jokes purpose is. What does matter is the people the joke harms.

This is an age old trope of back peddling, "OMG YOU PEOPLE HAVE NO SENSE OF HUMOR! GOSH!!! ITS JUST A JOKE!!" A joke is a joke yes, but if it is about a disadvantaged group of people, that still makes you a bigot, a jerkface, and so much worse.

[cartman | 195]

3 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

No, then it just becomes a racist/bigoted/whatever joke. You might tell those in back rooms or something, where you're safe. Tell it in public and watch what happens to you.

 

Making fun of disadvantaged groups when they can't help who they are is the definition of bigotry.

Ofcourse it does. A racist joke is racist nobody denies that. But it doesn't mean the person is or that he's abusing someone it's the intention that counts. As for the public they are not the ingroup so yeah you're right, it's not a smart thing to do. I mean they too should be able to read the intention for what it is based on tone and mannerism but it doesn't work.

Making fun of someone is bigotry if they are being abused. Again it's the context that decides what's what. You refuse to take things into account.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

4 minutes ago, cartman said:

But it doesn't mean the person is or that he's abusing someone it's the intention that counts.

 

He's making a conscious decision to make a joke. That's intent. Either he's bigoted or exceedingly dense. Either way doesn't excuse it.

4 minutes ago, cartman said:

Making fun of someone is bigotry if they are being abused. Again it's the context that decides what's what. You refuse to take things into account.

Jokes have been used to abuse people throughout history. Maybe you have a thick skin, or maybe someone just hasn't found your trigger yet, but plenty of disadvantaged people have endured years and years of being the butt of jokes. It's not a onetime thing for many of them, it's that they can't go out without hearing it in some form. That wears on people, and you can't just tell them to suck it up, especially if you've rarely  or never encountered it.

Put yourself in their shoes for a minute. I mean, really put yourself in their position.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Tulpa

[cartman | 195]

6 minutes ago, kuriatsu said:

It doesn't matter in any way what the jokes purpose is. What does matter is the people the joke harms.

This is an age old trope of back peddling, "OMG YOU PEOPLE HAVE NO SENSE OF HUMOR! GOSH!!! ITS JUST A JOKE!!" A joke is a joke yes, but if it is about a disadvantaged group of people, that still makes you a bigot, a jerkface, and so much worse.

Ofcourse it matters. If it didn't matter jokes wouldn't even exist at all. The joke doesn't have to harm anyone.

But you're right that you can abuse someone and hide it by saying "it was just a joke". That's an old bullying trick. But in that case the bully hadn't read the context wich again is an integral part for what a joke is and isn't.

[Hammerfestus | 3,837]

Is there a low group on the totem pole that gets to tell jokes about everyone?   

[Tulpa | 3,492]

2 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

Is there a low group on the totem pole that gets to tell jokes about everyone?   

Pretty sure the great gray slugs can. I mean, have you seen their lives?

[cartman | 195]

Just now, Tulpa said:

He's making a conscious decision to make a joke. That's intent. Either he's bigoted or exceedingly dense. Either way doesn't excuse it.

Jokes have been used to abuse people throughout history. Maybe you have a thick skin, or maybe someone just hasn't found your trigger yet, but plenty of disadvantaged people have endured years and years of being the butt of jokes. It's not a onetime thing for many of them, it's that they can't go out without hearing it in some form. That wears on people, and you can't just tell them to suck it up, especially if you've rarely  or ever encountered it.

Intent to make a joke. Nothing else. 

If you're being abused then it's abuse and the joke is off. But the springing point remains abuse. You can swap the joke with insults or beatings because the purpose is not the humor.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

Just now, cartman said:

Intent to make a joke. Nothing else. 

 

Then they're dense, and they need to be educated on what makes a joke okay and not okay.

If they continue to do it, even just to be funny, they've crossed over to bigot territory.

[Hammerfestus | 3,837]

Just now, Tulpa said:

Pretty sure the great gray slugs can. I mean, have you seen their lives?

Pssshhh supporting the slugiarchy I see.  Lesser gray slug power!

[kuriatsu | 65]

1 minute ago, cartman said:

Ofcourse it matters. If it didn't matter jokes wouldn't even exist at all. The joke doesn't have to harm anyone.

But you're right that you can abuse someone and hide it by saying "it was just a joke". That's an old bullying trick. But in that case the bully hadn't read the context wich again is an integral part for what a joke is and isn't.

No, it doesn't matter. The joke does harm people, just because the jokes not about you, doesn't mean that it doesn't harm people.

Jokes have been constantly used to harass and abuse people. as the geek in highschool, ask the loner kid in elementary school, ask the people who are unpopular, ask the people who are victimized, ask anyone who the joke harms and they will tell you exactly how some jokes are very harmful.

Again, you have no idea, and you've proven that you don't care.

 

[cartman | 195]

2 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Then they're dense, and they need to be educated on what makes a joke okay and not okay.

If they continue to do it, even just to be funny, they've crossed over to bigot territory.

What makes it ok is that nobody is being abused. If they continue to do it when the person isn't oboard then it is abuse.

You know what jargon is? It's kind of a similar thing. You talk in a way that you wouldn't otherwise because that circle of people is in on the behavior.

 

[cartman | 195]

4 minutes ago, kuriatsu said:

No, it doesn't matter. The joke does harm people, just because the jokes not about you, doesn't mean that it doesn't harm people.

Jokes have been constantly used to harass and abuse people. as the geek in highschool, ask the loner kid in elementary school, ask the people who are unpopular, ask the people who are victimized, ask anyone who the joke harms and they will tell you exactly how some jokes are very harmful.

Again, you have no idea, and you've proven that you don't care.

 

Those jokes you mention are harmful because the person is being victimized so your comparsion isn't valid. You can victimize someone without jokes by plain insults or by violence.

It still doesn't prove that the joke itself is harmful.

[kuriatsu | 65]

3 minutes ago, cartman said:

What makes it ok is that nobody is being abused. If they continue to do it when the person isn't oboard then it is abuse.

You know what jargon is? It's kind of a similar thing. You talk in a way that you wouldn't otherwise because that circle of people is in on the behavior.

 

I recommend you do some research into what jargon is....because I do not think it means what you think it means...:/

bigotry is bigotry. it doesn't matter how many times its told, no matter if its intent is different, no matter if its "just a joke" no matter if its abusive, no matter if the person or group is being abused.

Abused can mean a lot of things to a lot of people.

bigotry is bigotry, not that you'd care.

[cartman | 195]

1 minute ago, kuriatsu said:

I recommend you do some research into what jargon is....because I do not think it means what you think it means...:/

bigotry is bigotry. it doesn't matter how many times its told, no matter if its intent is different, no matter if its "just a joke" no matter if its abusive, no matter if the person or group is being abused.

Abused can mean a lot of things to a lot of people.

bigotry is bigotry, not that you'd care.

Jargon is ingroup behaviour wich relates to jokes aswell. Because jokes are inside a context too.

Yes it does matter wich is why comedy is this distinct phenomenon acknowledged by every society in the world. It might not matter to you personally but it is a reality.

[kuriatsu | 65]

12 minutes ago, cartman said:

Jargon is ingroup behaviour wich relates to jokes aswell. Because jokes are inside a context too.

Yes it does matter wich is why comedy is this distinct phenomenon acknowledged by every society in the world. It might not matter to you personally but it is a reality.

no, it doesn't. comedy is comedy, bigotry is bigotry.

It might not matter to you, but thats what reality is. Reality does not care what you think.

If you offend someone, you offend someone, you do not get to decide who gets offended by what.

I'd appreciate it if you not talk to me about what reality is, when you are clearly not living in reality.

Jargon, is a series of terms used in order to ensure that people are able to relate to some small extent in reference to what you're explaining to them.

example: I need to take the hyper thermic phase inducers and connect them over to the telescopic vision enhancer.

translation: I need to take the RCA cables and plug them into the CRT TV.

jargon has nothing to do with bigotry.

Bigotry is bigotry, point blank.

You yourself have proven my point.

Edited February 22, 2020 by kuriatsu

[Link | 2,709]

3 hours ago, Tulpa said:

Sure you can. Look at what the offense is that is actually being targeted and see why. It's not a case of shutting down every thing that may be offensive to one person, it's almost always something that targets a disadvantaged group that until recently had no way of fighting back.

This is the nuance that Tabonga chooses to ignore, equating all banned books as victims of censorship, the end. The books banned in the mid 20th century posed a threat to the power structure. Books getting banned now promote further disenfranchising lower classes.

[cartman | 195]

3 minutes ago, kuriatsu said:

no, it doesn't. comedy is comedy, bigotry is bigotry.

It might not matter to you, but thats what reality is. Reality does not care what you think.

If you offend someone, you offend someone, you do not get to decide who gets offended by what.

I'd appreciate it if you not talk to me about what reality is, when you are clearly not living in reality.

Jargon, is a series of terms used in order to ensure that people are able to relate to some small extent in reference to what you're explaining to them.

example: I need to take the hyper thermic phase inducers and connect them over to the telescopic vision enhancer.

translation: I need to take the RCA cables and put them into the tv.

jargon has nothing to do with bigotry.

Bigotry is bigotry, point blank.

You yourself have proven my point.

You can get offended but you can't decide what is and isn't a joke on a general level. But you can decide it is abusive on a personal level, if someone aims it directly at YOU.

Jargon is how people talk and behave within a group. I didn't say it has to do with bigotry i said it relates to jokes because they both happen in a context. And that context excludes or includes bigotry depending on what it is.

 

[Link | 2,709]

2 hours ago, MrWunderful said:

 Quest could’ve just posted the link and instantly disproved the original comment,

I’ll reiterate that I was not referring to events (or, rather, non-events) of this year or the current campaign season, which is what his link was about.