Are the Puzzles in Monkey Island 2 Unfair? (Playthrough Complete - Spoil Away!)

[Sumez | 2,954]

19 hours ago, DoctorEncore said:

Still, I don't plan to give up on the genre. Perhaps I'll move to something a bit newer such as Machinarium and find my groove again.

In this case I think you should try Thimbleweed Park. It's similar in structure to the Monkey Island games, and of course designed by the same guy. I'd be curious what you think of its puzzles, because in my experience there was not a single one of them that I didn't feel the game subconsciously cluing me in on, it's really expertly designed, and definitely a lot easier than MI2.

And if your impressions of that game are the same as they were coming out of Monkey Island 2 (otherwise often heralded as the epitome of the genre), it'd at least confirm that you just don't enjoy this school of thought.

19 hours ago, DoctorEncore said:

Adjusting the question and providing subtle hints allows the teacher to guide the student towards the solution. It is more a process than a simple right or wrong answer and this is where MI2 fails its players.

I don't need to go into detail about it again, but this is definitely where our experiences differ, because I think MI2 is excellent at exactly that.  

[DefaultGen | 5,405]

The Monkey Wrench puzzle is the main thing that sticks out about MI2 to me in my memory, like many people only think the Turbo Tunnel when they think Battletoads. The puzzle design is probably the reason I never continued the series. I don't remember as many specifics, just that the world was huge, there were many useless items, and the "logic" of the monkey wrench puzzle. I remember being frustrated with the logic of The Dig too but the music and atmosphere was so good it was easier to pixel hunt and avoid getting frustrated.

I haven't played all the old adventure games, but MI2 is the hardest I remember that wasn't just because I got stuck on one crazy puzzle. Try Loom if you haven't. It's unique and easy  

Edited July 12, 2021 by DefaultGen

[Sumez | 2,954]

The Dig is definitely one of the easiest of LucasArts adventures games. Loom takes the cake of course, but that game barely has puzzles, so I'm not sure it even counts.  Aside from it, I'd say Day of the Tentacle and The Dig are the two most "approachable" LucasArts games in terms of how clear the puzzles get.

While DotT still relies on moon logic, there's usually a pretty clear train of thought to the solution of every puzzle, and the time travel/character switching mechanic is really, really ingenious for a game o fthis type. Absolutely 100% recommended. When I first played this game as a kid I got through it in a day or two, and I don't remember getting stuck in it (as in, the kind where you're dumbfounded for days and not making progress), with the exception of one place in the game, where it relies on knowledge of pointless trivia about american history. Probably something to keep in the back of your head.

The Dig, on the other hand, is one of the rare games of its sort where most of the puzzles are far more "realistically" logical, which kinda ties into the game having a more dramatic tone, as opposed to overtly comical. And the lack of a verb system makes it much easier to brute force puzzles. The story is pretty captivating honestly, and though the game really sticks out among its LucasArts peers, I think it's another solid recommentation.

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

12 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

The Monkey Wrench puzzle is the main thing that sticks out about MI2 to me in my memory, like many people only think the Turbo Tunnel when they think Battletoads. The puzzle design is probably the reason I never continued the series. I don't remember as many specifics, just that the world was huge, there were many useless items, and the "logic" of the monkey wrench puzzle. I remember being frustrated with the logic of The Dig too but the music and atmosphere was so good it was easier to pixel hunt and avoid getting frustrated.

I haven't played all the old adventure games, but MI2 is the hardest I remember that wasn't just because I got stuck on one crazy puzzle. Try Loom if you haven't. It's unique and easy  

 

10 hours ago, Sumez said:

The Dig is definitely one of the easiest of LucasArts adventures games. Loom takes the cake of course, but that game barely has puzzles, so I'm not sure it even counts.  Aside from it, I'd say Day of the Tentacle and The Dig are the two most "approachable" LucasArts games in terms of how clear the puzzles get.

While DotT still relies on moon logic, there's usually a pretty clear train of thought to the solution of every puzzle, and the time travel/character switching mechanic is really, really ingenious for a game o fthis type. Absolutely 100% recommended. When I first played this game as a kid I got through it in a day or two, and I don't remember getting stuck in it (as in, the kind where you're dumbfounded for days and not making progress), with the exception of one place in the game, where it relies on knowledge of pointless trivia about american history. Probably something to keep in the back of your head.

The Dig, on the other hand, is one of the rare games of its sort where most of the puzzles are far more "realistically" logical, which kinda ties into the game having a more dramatic tone, as opposed to overtly comical. And the lack of a verb system makes it much easier to brute force puzzles. The story is pretty captivating honestly, and though the game really sticks out among its LucasArts peers, I think it's another solid recommentation.

I've never played The Dig, but I did mess around with Loom about 20 years ago. I can't say I got very far, although I also didn't really make any serious attempts at progressing. I actually have Day of the Tentacle downloaded and ready to go, but I don't have any desire to jump into another old school adventure game right now. I'd kind of like to give Maniac Mansion a try, although it seems somewhat insane.

I'll probably look at Machinarium or Thimbleweed Park based on what I've read here. For now I've gone in a completely different direction playing Nier Replicant and Doom Eternal. Haha.

[Sumez | 2,954]

If you are on the edge about adventure game moon logic, Maniac Mansion would be sure to push you over it  Don't play with fire.

It's a very interesting game, but the good stuff was yet to come.

[Tanooki | 4,934]

If you want to try Maniac Mansion out, about 15-20+ years ago someone re-did it as MM Deluxe for windows and released it free, lucasarts oddly never cared to pursue it.  Maybe if it still works in windows, it might be worth a poke and see.

 

Personally for fair well thought out mechanics in those earlier SCUMM days I'd throw it to Fate of Atlantis, not so much Sam & Max as it was way off the reservation with screwball stuff to keep in line with the humor.

[guitarzombie | 924]

49 minutes ago, Sumez said:

If you are on the edge about adventure game moon logic, Maniac Mansion would be sure to push you over it  Don't play with fire.

It's a very interesting game, but the good stuff was yet to come.

No way haha.  I disagree.  Aside from the real way of knowing that inner door code, I figured out every single thing in that game.  Every item except the chainsaw has a logical use.  Now some things might SEEM illogical to find, but item wise, everything can be used.  As aside from something like Uninvited where IIRC a lot of the items don't have a purpose.  I hate shit like this.  I could be a little wrong but in Shadowgate I could figure out I had to cut open something, and I used the knife, logically.  Didn't work.  Couldn't figure out what to do.  You needed to use the AXE instead.  Thats stupid, because you should be able to get the same result using both.

The only way of really locking yourself out of MM accidentally (and not purposefully) is using the paint remover on anything other than the blotch, and wasting the dimes.  The paint blotch you wont even need if you can get to the inner door before Dr Fred plays the arcade game anyway.  You can intentionally mess up the game a couple of ways (like mailing something that obviously shouldn't have been mailed) or die.  The only ways you can die accidentally is drowning in the pool, although thats easily avoidable, using the radioactive water in the microwave and getting the recording contract and showing it to the green tentacle, instead of showing him your demo first.

I still think the NES version is the best because the graphics look great and I LOOOOOVE the music.

[Sumez | 2,954]

Don't get me wrong, MM is cool, and definitely really unique. But if DoctorEncore is already bothered by the nature of the puzzles in MI2, the Maniac Mansion ones are sure to cause a fit  The game is super cryptic, and like you said there are certain timed events that reward a thorough knowledge of the game that you won't just pick up on while playing it casually.

[MagusSmurf | 577]

Can confirm. I enjoy a lot of 2000’s Japanese adventure games, figured I’d try a western one a few years back, went with Maniac Mansion since it’s a “classic” with a good reputation and was on NES so it was easily playable. Largely scared me off the genre.

[Tanooki | 4,934]

Maniac Mansion put me off it too way way back in those days, if it wasn't for the fact it was just Indiana Jones I never would have bought and kept Fate of Atlantis all these years.  It proved the engine was good for something other than cryptic hair pulling garbage gaming.  Great story, great atmosphere, and well though out indy-like situations with solutions that actually made sense if you stopped and thought for a time.  Sam & Max I have, I tolerate it using the book it came with because even they knew it was MM bad, because I love the comic/cartoon series Purcell made up.

[Sumer | 221]

I chose the last option, as I seriously don't remember the puzzles in the game.  I probably have not played Monkey Island 2 since 1996 or so.  I have MI 1 many times since then, but I have not played 2 in a LONG while.  I seem to remember using walkthroughs though...but that is not unusual, as I probably used the walkthrough on 1 as well.

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

All this talk is just making me want to play more adventure games! That endorphin hit when you solve a puzzle is real. Until the next unsolvable puzzle has you running circles for four hours, that is.

[Sumez | 2,954]

17 hours ago, MagusSmurf said:

went with Maniac Mansion since it’s a “classic” with a good reputation and was on NES so it was easily playable. Largely scared me off the genre.

Maniac Mansion is considered the progenitor of the point'n'click interface for adventure games, but aside from that I'm surprised you felt it has a reputation like that.
While I don't think LucasArts made any bad adventure games, both Maniac Mansion and Zak McCracken are the two early "prototypes" that really stand out from the much more streamlined and user friendly design of all their later games. 
And I guess Loom, also, was doing its own thing.

Sam & Max has been brought up, and I agree it has some much more sloppy puzzles than the overall standard, but the rest of the LucasArts lineup really is immaculate.

One game that, weirdly, did not click well with me when it came out was Grim Fandango. I thought the controls were clumsy, and the 3D just didn't run well on my computer. But every time I've replayed it I loved it. It transcends basic comedy, and has an amazing sense of storytelling that's just unlike anything else in video games, told over four years, with plenty of noir style romance, intrigue and murder.
It's also one of the few games that lack a verb selection entirely, which like The Dig makes puzzles less abstract, and easier to brute force.

Overall I think my LucasArts top list reads something like:

1. Day of the Tentacle
2. Monkey Island 2
3. Grim Fandango
4. Monkey Island 1
5. Curse of Monkey Island
6. Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis
7. The Dig
8. Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
9. Full Throttle
10. Sam & Max
11. Zak McCracken
12. Maniac Mansion
13. Loom

Meanwhile, Sierra adventure games just went the completely opposite direction, probably not intentionally though, and just punishes the player for not thinking of weird abstract things at the right moment, and will kill you just to mess with you (save often, save always!), while several of the older ones can straight up put you in a scenario where there's nothing you can do to make it through long before you even realise it. It mellowed out a bit with some of their later games (outside of one notoriously bad trap in King's Quest 7), but it's a thing for most of their games, compared to LucasArts who got out of that after their first two.

Nevertheless, for fans of the genre there's still fun to be had. One thing I do miss a bit is the text parser system, which was completely abandoned by everyone after point n click was "invented". There's something uniquely satisfying about thinking up the solution entirely by yourself and typing it out, as opposed to just trying to combine verbs with objects. Of course, it also comes with some frustation in the situation where you might know the solution but have no idea how to tell it to the game in a way it understands.

Sierra's games are way too many to list, but some of my fondest memories come from these games:

1. Gabriel Knight 1
2. Larry 7
3. Larry 6
4. Freddy Pharkas
5. King's Quest 6
6. Larry 2
7. Phantasmagoria
8. King's Quest 5
9. Space Quest 6
10. Space Quest 4
11. King's Quest 3
12. Gabriel Knight 2
13. King's Quest 4

Edited July 14, 2021 by Sumez

[guitarzombie | 924]

@Sumez as a musician I thought Loom was pretty easy.  I played on hard too but certainly its for musicians.  Most of the annoying stuff was built around knowing and recreating the melodies.  Although I will say I thought it was BS they give you a thing to learn all the commands, and it turns out, out of the lets say 20, you only learn 11.  Can't go wrong with DoTT.  I loved it too but id probably switch places for MI 1 and MI 2.  Id put Zak McCraken last because it really requires multiple play thrus to know where to go so you don't run out of money.  Of course that was a different era.  Still need to play Dig, Sam/Max, Full Throttle and Grim.

Ive played quite a few on the switch and all I think were very good in their own right.  I can't think of one off the top of my head that I totally loved though.

Edited July 15, 2021 by guitarzombie

[Sumez | 2,954]

Oh man, don't wait on Grim Fandango, get playing right now  

[MagusSmurf | 577]

On 7/14/2021 at 12:41 AM, Sumez said:

Maniac Mansion is considered the progenitor of the point'n'click interface for adventure games, but aside from that I'm surprised you felt it has a reputation like that.

it's on gamefaqs' top 50 highest rated NES games with 50+ ratings, got 5 stars in Pat the NES Punk's book, and is just a well-known game in general that people seemed to have a lot of fond memories of.

to be fair while I didn't like Maniac Mansion much I didn't hate it either. More than I can say for Shadowgate! I learned where the Gaming in the Clinton Years theme came from and that's about all the positives I got from my experience with the latter.

Edited July 19, 2021 by MagusSmurf