Wata & VGA Grading Fails

[Startyde | 180]

Inspired by the CC 85+ and fake Wata proto threads, I figure this would be a great place to post our dubious questions regarding Wata and VGA's analysis.

First up:

This new Wata GoW1 auction caught my eye because this game was originally released as a holostrip title in the early PS2 game era (see VGA) pic. No where on the Wata copy does it indicate this is a second or even later reprinting, which will only serve to confuse the ignorant. Either Wata didn't know or didn't care, both of which are ominous for a company obsessed with first print nom rev oval seal etc etc nonsense.

[K.Thrower | 6]

Wata does not list first, second, etc prints on any games and only describes the variant as it is.  Including print info would be guesswork at best and only become outdated as new variants are discovered.  This game was released the year Sony stopped including security stickers on its cases, hence the reason why more than one seal type exists.  The seal type is described on the back of the label, separate from the box variant.

[a3quit4s | 4,528]

Hey @K.Thrower good to see you

[austin532 | 470]

Well, let's just say I'm not impressed with WATA graded games and the people who inspect them...

[Startyde | 180]

17 hours ago, K.Thrower said:

Wata does not list first, second, etc prints on any games and only describes the variant as it is.  Including print info would be guesswork at best and only become outdated as new variants are discovered.  This game was released the year Sony stopped including security stickers on its cases, hence the reason why more than one seal type exists.  The seal type is described on the back of the label, separate from the box variant.

Thank you for replying Keith and for your confirmation. While this makes sense I think the distintion between original print vs non for PS2 games that had holostrips is important.

For example, reprints for certain games like ZoE2 and the Yakuza games were made years after original release, having been requested by third parties to meet a demand, and they look identical sans the original official Sony holostrip.  This also applies to boxset games like DMC. It's my personal opinion these should be noted as they are much later and can almost be considered third party. Perhaps as you say though, the answer is to simply list the original first print holostrip as first and that handles itself.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Startyde
Additional Examples

[Startyde | 180]

6 hours ago, austin532 said:

Well, let's just say I'm not impressed with WATA graded games and the people who inspect them...

Not the purpose of this thread bud. It's for perceived grading snafus and the discussion thereof.

[jonebone | 1,335]

16 hours ago, K.Thrower said:

Wata does not list first, second, etc prints on any games and only describes the variant as it is.  Including print info would be guesswork at best and only become outdated as new variants are discovered.  This game was released the year Sony stopped including security stickers on its cases, hence the reason why more than one seal type exists.  The seal type is described on the back of the label, separate from the box variant.

@K.Thrower

Agree you don't list prints on the game and you don't want to be in that business.

But, this issue that @Startyde mentions is as significant as Majesco on SNES, which is basically equivalent to Player's Choice in terms of being undesirable and commanding values that are only a fraction of what a true 1st print Made-in-Japan would command.  And that is something that you guys do note on the front of the case.

Made in Japan is noted on front.

 

And Majesco is noted on the front:

 

In the case of PS2, the holosticker not being present is just as significant.  @Startyde would know more about price variation between the two, but I would expect at least 5-10x price variation if someone really knew what they were buying on this title.  A price going up 500-1000% is probably worth a minor text callout somewhere.

[Rman | 23]

Lol Kenneth comes through!!!  
 

I agree.  Vga doesn’t say first print, Vs second either.    Like a left bros you can’t tell which print unless you open it, or something like a Capcom Ht could have 2 or 3 no made in Japan prints before the change to made in Japan.  

They can’t just guess on print runs.  
 

 

However this is A fun one. (Sorry Kenneth)

 

 
 

 

[Nintendopower4ever | 88]

All 3 of these Latin American Made in Mexico versions of The Death and Return of Superman are wrong and listed as USA versions

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Death-and-Return-of-Superman-Super-Nintendo-SNES-New-Sealed-Mint-WATA-9-0-A/264662058993

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Death-and-Return-of-Superman-Super-Nintendo-SNES-New-Sealed-Mint-WATA-8-5-A-raRe/264582705765

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Death-and-Return-of-Superman-Super-Nintendo-SNES-New-Sealed-WATA-8-5-C-rArE/264559012623

 

[Startyde | 180]

22 minutes ago, Nintendopower4ever said:

All 3 of these Latin American Made in Mexico versions of The Death and Return of Superman are wrong and listed as USA versions

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Death-and-Return-of-Superman-Super-Nintendo-SNES-New-Sealed-Mint-WATA-9-0-A/264662058993

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Death-and-Return-of-Superman-Super-Nintendo-SNES-New-Sealed-Mint-WATA-8-5-A-raRe/264582705765

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Death-and-Return-of-Superman-Super-Nintendo-SNES-New-Sealed-WATA-8-5-C-rArE/264559012623

 

These all say Made in Mexico, where do you see USA?

[K.Thrower | 6]

2 hours ago, jonebone said:

@K.Thrower

Agree you don't list prints on the game and you don't want to be in that business.

But, this issue that @Startyde mentions is as significant as Majesco on SNES, which is basically equivalent to Player's Choice in terms of being undesirable and commanding values that are only a fraction of what a true 1st print Made-in-Japan would command.  And that is something that you guys do note on the front of the case.

Made in Japan is noted on front.

 

And Majesco is noted on the front:

 

In the case of PS2, the holosticker not being present is just as significant.  @Startyde would know more about price variation between the two, but I would expect at least 5-10x price variation if someone really knew what they were buying on this title.  A price going up 500-1000% is probably worth a minor text callout somewhere.

Both are important, but one is a box variant and one is a seal variant.  Since we don't just grade sealed, we have to take into account that these can also exist as open, so it would make the same item have multiple variants if the seal type was listed in the box variant field of a sealed game, and would change if the same game was opened. 

For this reason, stickers placed on a box before sealing are listed in the box variant field and stickers placed over the seal (or something like xbox "disc made in mexico" that is printed on the seal) are listed as part of the seal rating.  They are kept separate so they are fluid on either state (sealed or CIB).

[Nintendopower4ever | 88]

3 minutes ago, Startyde said:

These all say Made in Mexico, where do you see USA?

On the front of the Wata case. All of the USA versions were Made in Japan

[Startyde | 180]

1 minute ago, Nintendopower4ever said:

On the front of the Wata case. All of the USA versions were Made in Japan

The Front and Back both Say Mexico. 

[K.Thrower | 6]

25 minutes ago, Nintendopower4ever said:

All 3 of these Latin American Made in Mexico versions of The Death and Return of Superman are wrong and listed as USA versions

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Death-and-Return-of-Superman-Super-Nintendo-SNES-New-Sealed-Mint-WATA-9-0-A/264662058993

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Death-and-Return-of-Superman-Super-Nintendo-SNES-New-Sealed-Mint-WATA-8-5-A-raRe/264582705765

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Death-and-Return-of-Superman-Super-Nintendo-SNES-New-Sealed-WATA-8-5-C-rArE/264559012623

 

Mexico is North America.  If you open the flap and look at the code on this game it will have a -USA code.  The USA (mostly denoting all of North America for Nintendo releases, except for some Canada specific releases) on our label is the region the game was primarily marketed to, and can also include other compatible countries the game was sold in.  The country of origin is a separate thing that just specifies where the parts were made or assembled.

[K.Thrower | 6]

11 minutes ago, Nintendopower4ever said:

On the front of the Wata case. All of the USA versions were Made in Japan

Are you saying Made in Japan=USA release and Made in Mexico=Mexico release?  This is definitely not true, please provide some info on what you are saying.  Would this mean all Madden 97s were only available in Puerto Rico for sale?  USA releases are made all across the globe.

[Nintendopower4ever | 88]

31 minutes ago, K.Thrower said:

Mexico is North America.  If you open the flap and look at the code on this game it will have a -USA code.  The USA (mostly denoting all of North America for Nintendo releases, except for some Canada specific releases) on our label is the region the game was primarily marketed to, and can also include other compatible countries the game was sold in.  The country of origin is a separate thing that just specifies where the parts were made or assembled.

That isn't true. The Latin American games are all -LTN code on the box flap, manual, and cartridge, not USA including these Death and Return of Supermans.

Of course I'm not saying not all Made in Mexico games are all Latin releases. lol

Without even needing to open it and verify, here's what makes it different than any normal Made in Mexico USA version of a SNES game

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Nintendopower4ever

[austin532 | 470]

8 hours ago, Startyde said:

Not the purpose of this thread bud. It's for perceived grading snafus and the discussion thereof.

Ah, I thought it was about grading fails. As in the condition doesn't match the grading.

[oops | 85]

5 hours ago, Nintendopower4ever said:

That isn't true. The Latin American games are all -LTN code on the box flap, manual, and cartridge, not USA including these Death and Return of Supermans.

Of course I'm not saying not all Made in Mexico games are all Latin releases. lol

Without even needing to open it and verify, here's what makes it different than any normal Made in Mexico USA version of a SNES game

 

 

 

your second photo would be considere “Made in Japan”, the labelling is correct.

 

Made in Mexico VS Made in Japan.

[Nintendopower4ever | 88]

1 hour ago, oops said:

 

 

your second photo would be considere “Made in Japan”, the labelling is correct.

 

Made in Mexico VS Made in Japan.

 

It isn't the Made in Mexico part that is incorrect. Wata graded all 3 copies as USA versions and they are -LTN versions made for other countries and were NOT released for the USA.

http://

 

[oops | 85]

1 hour ago, Nintendopower4ever said:

 

It isn't the Made in Mexico part that is incorrect. Wata graded all 3 copies as USA versions and they are -LTN versions made for other countries and were NOT released for the USA.

http://

 

Oh yeah, fair point. Your original post was a little confusing.

[fcgamer | 5,126]

If I were wata , I'd personally bring lessen the scope of what they're doing, otherwise we will just see more and more of this. Can't be an expert at everything.

[Startyde | 180]

Halo experts, what say you on this auction? Did VGA fail hard or was this tampered with? The seller believes it's resealed.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174242848277

[Chuckbiii | 2]

I’m going to chime in here.  This came up because of me.  This seller and myself bought 3 black label halo copies from another particular seller on eBay.  I sent mine to WATA and they will not grade these as they cannot confirm authenticity. The security seal on these did not exist in 2001.  They are only on the “greatest hits” variants of combat evolved.  I checked with the seller selling the VGA copies and confirmed he did indeed buy these from the same person I did.  We both believe VGA messed up and he does not want his seller rep tarnished for selling non-authentic items (even though VGA graded otherwise).

Now the more maddening part.  I paid for 10 day speed run on the copy I sent to WATA.  It took them almost 5 weeks to tell me this was not authentic and only after I emailed them a bunch asking where it was!! It took so long that I am outside of the ebay money back guarantee window of 30 days......the person we bought these from says he has no money to refund us.....

Edited April 6, 2020 by Chuckbiii
Grammar

[Startyde | 180]

45 minutes ago, Chuckbiii said:

I’m going to chime in here.  This came up because of me.  This seller and myself bought 3 black label halo copies from another particular seller on eBay.  I sent mine to WATA and they will not grade these as they cannot confirm authenticity. The security seal on these did not exist in 2001.  They are only on the “greatest hits” variants of combat evolved.  I checked with the seller selling the VGA copies and confirmed he did indeed buy these from the same person I did.  We both believe VGA messed up and he does not want his seller rep tarnished for selling non-authentic items (even though VGA graded otherwise).

Now the more maddening part.  I paid for 10 day speed run on the copy I sent to WATA.  It took them almost 5 weeks to tell me this was not authentic and only after I emailed them a bunch asking where it was!! It took so long that I am outside of the ebay money back guarantee window of 30 days......the person we bought these from says he has no money to refund us.....

Wata has the most inept time tables in grading. My 5 day turnaround was twice as slow as my 10 day turnaround, and that one was almost 4 weeks late. One day they'll probably stablaize but yeesh.

Back on topic, are you sure halos don't have the strip? I'm almost sure I've seen them. Also Orta is from 2002 and clearly has them.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Startyde

[Chuckbiii | 2]

Yeah I have had horrible wata response times.  Yes hopefully that gets straightened out.  I think all the garbage CIB grading is bottlenecking the process.  But anyway.....

Here is a pic I received from the guy selling the VGA copies.  Hopefully he doesn’t mind.  The top 2 games are the combat evolved (with the later security seal).  The bottom 2 games have the correct seal.  The game you pictured has the earlier security seal.  The top 2 games with the later security seals were never present in 2001.   They didn’t show up until 2004 at the earliest to my knowledge and are present on everything Xbox 360 and newer.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Chuckbiii