Modern or Retro: Homebrew Debate

[JamesRobot | 5,839]

I can see the argument for both sides of the coin.  

1. If it's a new game, it's automatically modern despite the platform.
2. If it's released for a vintage console, it's automatically in the retro "style."

 

Additionally, what about new titles of vintage IP?  Metroid Dread feels retro because it sticks to the established formula and is primarily 2D (or 2.5D, whatevs).  But Mario Odyssey very much feels modern because it reinvents the core mechanics and gameplay.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

I guess it depends on whether you classify games primarily based on their release date, or primarily based on the console they were released for.   I chose Retro because calling a game like Garbage Pail Kids for the NES "modern" just doesn't seem right to me...

[Sumez | 2,995]

This seems pretty definitive.

Edited June 5, 2023 by Sumez

[Gloves | 11,843]

3 hours ago, Sumez said:

This seems pretty difinitive.

And so does this, what of it? 

 

[Sumez | 2,995]

2 minutes ago, Gloves said:

And so does this, what of it? 

It pretty much answers what is being asked, leaving very little nuance to go over?

[Gloves | 11,843]

Just now, Sumez said:

It pretty much answers what is being asked, leaving very little nuance to go over?

No it doesn't, if you don't ignore the definition of the other word in the question. 

Technically, you can 100% have a modern retro game. The question is a fun little debate on terms that aren't opposite ends of a line. 

[Sumez | 2,995]

Just now, Gloves said:

Technically, you can 100% have a modern retro game.

Do you feel that making a homebrew game for an old system is a particularly modern thing to do, and "advocates a departure from tradition"?

Sure, the same game can have elements that are modern, and some that are "retro", but I'm not exactly sure how you'd imagine one can be both.

[Gloves | 11,843]

1 minute ago, Sumez said:

Do you feel that making a homebrew game for an old system is a particularly modern thing to do, and "advocates a departure from tradition"?

Sure, the same game can have elements that are modern, and some that are "retro", but I'm not exactly sure how you'd imagine one can be both.

I feel that jumping to the noun usage defining a person and ignoring the adjective which we're comparing to argue against that use of the term is weak. 

A homebrew game made today is a modern creation of a retro article. Modern, made today; retro, in the style of the past. 

Homebrew games are modern. 

[Sumez | 2,995]

19 minutes ago, Gloves said:

A homebrew game made today is a modern creation of a retro article. Modern, made today; retro, in the style of the past. 

You're just describing exactly what the word retro means there?

"Retro" and "modern" are both terms describing a style in relation to their contemporary place in time, neither describe when they were actually made. That's what "old" and "new" is for.

[Gloves | 11,843]

12 minutes ago, Sumez said:

You're just describing exactly what the word retro means there?

"Retro" and "modern" are both terms describing a style in relation to their contemporary place in time, neither describe when they were actually made. That's what "old" and "new" is for.

Many of the homebrew games of today don't "feel" like most of the older games because they benefit from the learnings of game devs across all the games since. They have modern elements and styles, in a retro package. 

Shovel Knight is a game I might use as an example of a modern retro game. 

Also I think we're kinda saying the same thing but one of us just woke up and is having a hard time communicating. 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,592]

10 hours ago, JamesRobot said:

I can see the argument for both sides of the coin.  

1. If it's a new game, it's automatically modern despite the platform.
2. If it's released for a vintage console, it's automatically in the retro "style."

 

Additionally, what about new titles of vintage IP?  Metroid Dread feels retro because it sticks to the established formula and is primarily 2D (or 2.5D, whatevs).  But Mario Odyssey very much feels modern because it reinvents the core mechanics and gameplay.

Wasn't Mario Odyssey celebrated for being a return to the gameplay of the past though?

[Reed Rothchild | 9,592]

I think we need a third thread: how old is retro?

Keep in mind the GameCube and NES were Nintendo's consoles only 11 years apart.  So for most kids (and young people), 2012 will feel equally long ago.

[JamesRobot | 5,839]

12 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Wasn't Mario Odyssey celebrated for being a return to the gameplay of the past though?

Was it?  The New SMB line feels more like traditional hop n bop Mario platforming with some graphical polish and a couple updated power ups while Odyssey is more of a GTA style Mario which I would argue is in the modern style.

[Reed Rothchild | 9,592]

1 minute ago, JamesRobot said:

Was it?  The New SMB line feels more like traditional hop n bop Mario platforming with some graphical polish and a couple updated power ups while Odyssey is more of a GTA style Mario which I would argue is in the modern style.

That sandbox style of play was popular from like 1996-2003.  Positively ancient, kinda like us  

[DefaultGen | 5,436]

The word retro is a mess. But I consider homebrew more in the camp of modern games. Part of the delight of NES games is how different game design conventions in the 80s were. Even a single hobbyist programming nerd 35 years later has a better handle on what makes a fun, responsive, enjoyable game than many developers in the 80s. I always notice things like screen shake implementations, better use of little animations (e.g. a dust cloud after a block sliding on the floor), or friendlier checkpoints that feel very modern in homebrew.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,092]

10 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

Part of the delight of NES games is how different game design conventions in the 80s were.

As much as I love seeing all the new NES homebrews out there, to date, Lizard is the only one that has ever felt like an actual NES-style game to me.  All the rest strive to fit neatly into whatever cookie-cutter genre they're aiming for, with all of the conventions of the last thirty years tacked on to make their game as user friendly as possible.  Playing Lizard was liking renting a game in the 80's: I didn't know what to expect every time the screen changed or where or how it was all going to end.  I really miss that in video games and it would be nice if more homebrewers just threw the whole "genre" concept out the window and actually made a NES-style game.

TLDR: If retro technically means "in the style of" then modern NES homebrewers are mostly doing it wrong...

Edited June 6, 2023 by Dr. Morbis

[FireHazard51 | 2,053]

22 hours ago, JamesRobot said:

I can see the argument for both sides of the coin.  

1. If it's a new game, it's automatically modern despite the platform.
2. If it's released for a vintage console, it's automatically in the retro "style."

 

Additionally, what about new titles of vintage IP?  Metroid Dread feels retro because it sticks to the established formula and is primarily 2D (or 2.5D, whatevs).  But Mario Odyssey very much feels modern because it reinvents the core mechanics and gameplay.

I'm going with logic #2.  What console do you play it on.  Or more specifically, what's the oldest console that can run it.  If Star Keeper was ported to PC or Nintendo Switch, I'd still call it a retro game since you CAN play it on NES.

 

[FireHazard51 | 2,053]

11 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I think we need a third thread: how old is retro?

Keep in mind the GameCube and NES were Nintendo's consoles only 11 years apart.  So for most kids (and young people), 2012 will feel equally long ago.

Retro is a measure of time, and time is relative.  You'll never tie "retro" to a specific age as we never gave a new term for different eras of gaming.  And honestly I can't even tell you what generation of consoles we are on because Nintendo refuses to use numbers like PlayStation.  I'm still having a hard time swallowing the idea of N64 is "retro" given there was a massive change from 8bit and 16bit games yet most would say N64 is retro for sure.  There is no way in hell you can say PS3 games are on the same level as like PS5 games.  Yet they are only 2 generations separating them like NES and N64 have and maybe group them together with "retro".