ExplodedHamster

This is a holy grail for me. I have been looking for a sealed one for a decade or so. Seal has some tears, but box is great and I’ll take what I can, trust me.

38 minutes ago, WalterWhiteJr. said:

Dude. Stop it. 6-7 within 5 years? We’ve seen another 9.8 A++, 95 and 9.6 A++ pop up in 8 weeks. Try 60-70. 

Who’d have thought a mere 1.5 million dollar sale would have brought out some of the highest graded items!? 

This reminds me of when people said there were thousands of matte Mario CIBs because a handful came out after the 25k or whatever sale (which was crazy insane at the time). Then they basically disappeared. Without a massive warehouse find, which is I suppose possible, it’ll be nowhere near 60-70 in 9.8/95. VGA got a handful in 15ish years, and I think 4 of the 5 were from the same single casepack they got in that time? It’s very tough to get 9.8 or 95 N64 that are not from casepacks. Possible, but real hard. And most casepack games have that notorious N64 side corner indent anyway, which would prevent a 9.8 from WATA. 
 

But where video games and collectibles in general are in 5 years is anyone’s guess. The past two years have been beyond insane across collectibles. There’s no way it can just keep going. 

12 hours ago, jonebone said:

What you're describing is softness in the scale and not necessarily platform specific. 

There are definitely a lot of weak 85+ out there. But on the Wata scale there's a lot of weak A++ and I've even seen some weak 9.6. Those grades are absolutely infuriating if you pay up expecting a nice copy reflecting the grade and then you see it is clearly soft in hand.

No, what I’m saying is WATA is more harsh on N64 than VGA is (because VGA is lenient in box damage and weighs seal heavily), though I agree it’s generally the other way around. I think VGA in general was too harsh for a long time and scared people away because of it. 

8 hours ago, OptOut said:

Congratulations to @ExplodedHamster for selling the highest priced Super Mario 64 that will ever sell! 

Hit it RIGHT at the peak there on that one, good work! As for the BUYER of that one, well... 

My guess is the buyer is probably doing ok for himself or herself one way or another, so none of us should lose sleep lol. I figured mine would hit 500k or so, so I’d still be quite happy as a seller at the 780k. 
 

The big question on these are how will they shake out long term? I think there are three 9.8/A++ now, let’s say within 5 years you get up to 6-7. What’s that worth? Who knows. 

14 hours ago, obnoxious said:

Wata can't even get their own labels right

 

Look up the serial number this was graded 9.8 A++ but was labeled a 9.6 A++. Take that for what it's worth as WATA won't respond to us. I don't see anything wrong with this game and in our opinion should be a 9.8 A++.

Under their old system, there were rare cases where grades changed after being initially put into the system. I forget why. It’s why they changed their entire system so grades don’t show until the game has shipped. It forces them to put in the final grade. I’m guessing this was one that was changed before shipping under the older system.

Good luck @Jared_Goldinauctions! Some really nice results already and we all know the insanity that is extended bidding on Goldin. Definitely should be fun to watch!

On 9/16/2021 at 2:57 AM, FenrirZero said:

I have two points why I cannot agree with what you said.

Point #1: In regards to "conditional" rarity, @jonebone's review on the VGA-to-Wata scale, while using the Carolina Collection as a means of mapping this out, has shown that a VGA 85 is (at best) a 9.6 A. And that a VGA 85+ is (also at best) a 9.8 A++. With a VGA 90, at better odds, being a 9.8 A++. Which translates to them saying that their 9.8 A++ graded SMB 64s are more around a 85+ to 90, which VGA says are NM+ and NM+/Mint. Where as Wata says that an 85+ or higher is mint. Which means that a 9.6 A++ is as "time machine" mint as a 9.8 A++.

Point #2: The difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 always depends on the graders. As an example, a number of CGC 9.8 graded comics would regrade as CBCS 9.6s. Because graders there were expected to grade softly when they have a large enough quota to meet. But even then, Wata themselves have admitted that VGA 90 is anything between a 9.4 A to a 9.8 A++. So in terms of grading, those 9.6 A++s and 9.8 A++s more than likely translate to either a VGA 90 or 90+. Because to get a 95 it has to look like it was it was in a shipping box's sweet spot prior to being graded.

So yeah... If you only collect 9.8 A++s, more power to ya. All I know is that I am willing to go for an 80+ if it looks 85. Just because there are just as many 'low grades' as there are high ones.

Which is not cheap, nor easy, thanks to my variation of Asperger's. 

I have crossed dozens of N64 games, and I can assure you that crossover article does not translate. VGA is quite lenient on box damage for N64 and weighs heavily the seal. I have had a number of 85+ hit from 8.0 to 9.0 with A++ seals. You likely are not getting a WATA 9.8 below a 90+, and quite often 90+ and above (including 95s) do not translate to a 9.8. 

11 hours ago, BriGuy82 said:

When your entire business is based on your ability to be objective and impartial, my opinion is that no employee/advisor should be partaking in the service. The optics are terrible. The fact that the people at the top of the company haven't recused themselves from getting games graded tells me they care more about making a quick buck then being taken seriously by those in the hobby that aren't just speculators or investors.

Well, I certainly think part of this is fair, particularly in terms of the optics. I don’t think there was really any particular need to showcase certain people the way they did or to use titles that left any room for the imagination. 

In terms of making money, they are first and foremost a business. With collectibles going bananas and video games riding the wave, business models were going to shift more towards catering to where the money is. It’s funny, you’ve seen new grading companies in cards start up now advertising to the “affordable for true collectors” crowd, and then once they get more business they jack prices too lol. 

6 hours ago, inasuma said:

it probably doesn't help that some folks in here have made explosive gains (cough explodedhamster cough) so i just can't imagine why they'd be giving the benefit of the doubt /s

speaking from experience, it's been crazy to witness the (raw) sealed market basically get sucked dry due to the hype (at least for the games that are remotely desirable e.g. flag ship / first party). collecting is now a nightmare, but at the same token, the games i bought last year and early this year are worth 3-4x what i paid. so yeah, i've benefited from an "investment" perspective. i still think the whole scene is a shitshow though. there's just two games i'm after at this point and i probably won't get them at even remotely affordable prices now.

My stance on these issues has been consistent for years, prior to any money I made on these games. As has been stated, none of this is new info and it has been discussed ad nauseam here and on NA. I think you have a harder time defending people who get up in arms about the most basic business transactions (like HA and WATA partnering), which makes it clear for many people it’s really been about the lame and played out “true collectors” and “games are for playing” garbage that has infested the community for long before WATA became a thing. The problem is it’s basically impossible to get past the noise and focus on the real issues, because people say something like “oh he’s made money, he’s a WATA shill” and I have to waste energy on that. Tbh it’s reaching the point where it’s probably a waste of time, it’s like arguing politics lol.

I also have no problem whatsoever saying I believe in video games as collectible assets, and it was something destined to occur at some point with the younger generation shifting gears on investments. I believe in capitalism (isn’t the so-called American Dream based on it?), and I’m not going to shy away from any of that. I am also an avid gamer and collector, and have been for far longer than I started buying graded WATA or VGA games. There is, and always has been, room for both.
 

12 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Agreed re: definition of an employee. As we've also agreed upon - its vague. 

Simply put:

• They made a promise - employees can't use our service
• They then plastered some faces on a "who we are" page

That's all the info the public has. We shouldn't NEED the people on that page to come out and "clarify their role" (or lack of one). 

It's no wonder AT ALL why people would be up in arms. When you say "we won't do X!" and then say "this is we!" and then people see a "we" doing "X"... 

This is basic communication! 

See, I disagree. 99.99% of the people pissed off never read that NYT article. So, to me, it’s more about the issue itself and not what Deniz did or didn’t say. Personally, I would not consider an advisor or investor an employee, for reasons stated above (namely, ability to influence at ground level on a daily basis). If I was a member of the general public, I would probably think Mark was an employee, however. Put another way, the large majority of stuff I see from Joe Public is “Mark Haspel was grading his own games.” I think that sentiment is both fair to believe (based on what’s out there), but also inaccurate, if that makes sense. I 100% agree WATA employees should not grade their own games. So while some may see arguing what is an “employee” as semantics, I think it’s key.

There’s a second divide, though, which is whether it’s appropriate for investors to participate in grading companies at all. I think that’s far more interesting and important for future in collectibles. How much separation is needed to participate? Lots of gray lines in the space. 

25 minutes ago, 16BitBricks said:

This whole ordeal is gonna make a sick movie! Wolf of Wall Street meets The Big Short meets Narcos. It just needs more hookers and blow!

Deniz - Antonio Banderas
Kenneth- Brad Pitt
Mark Haspel - Steve Carrell
Jim Halperin - John Lithgow
Karl Jobst - Aaron Carter
Seth Abramson - Himself

Wait, Jobst is Australian. Let’s go with Iggy Azaelia.

11 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Ethics aside, the company *claims* that employees can't use the service. This is SURELY to dissuade preferential treatment allegations. 

Mark having his photo right alongside and described as being within the same group as the rest of the executives in the company flies in the face of that whole idea. 

Can Deniz get Wata to grade his games? Can Kenneth? I'd argue that there's an implication by the promise they make to not do so, that anyone in that group should be considered equally responsible in not using the service for their own gain. 

Mark getting his games graded by Wata for the purpose of selling them on ebay or wherever else to me contradicts the promise they made as a company. 

BECAUSE they put him in that lineup. I don't have their ledgers. I don't know their HR person. I have no clue what constitutes an "employee" with these people; seemingly they are vague on this with potentially some purpose. Who IS an employee at Wata? 

Pretty sure it’s simply defined as anyone paid a salary, which I think is basically anyone working in the office. But I 100% agree with you that WATA left far too much to the imagination here. That, in and of itself, is probably the biggest reason they got caught in this mess. People are saying a million things that are untrue at this point, but that’s because stuff was presented and not clearly defined. If I read Mayer was a director and the things about Haspel, and I didn’t personally know better because I was around from early on, I’d have assumed the same.

Personally, however, as someone participating in the market, my bigger concern would be whether preferential treatment was actually given. I’m certainly not going to argue with or begrudge anyone who sees what’s on the website and raises an eyebrow.

26 minutes ago, AdamW said:

I would disagree, given Deniz's statement and the purpose and scale of the company. I also disagree with your characterization of what it "comes down to". In this instance I think Seth happens to be right on the money: policies like this are about avoiding not only actual conflicts of interest but the appearance of them. Credibility should be a pretty vital thing for a company like WATA. It doesn't wash for them to state a policy like that, then try to backpedal against what's clearly a violation of the spirit of it (if not the letter) by saying "oh but we totes graded the games fairly so it's fine". For a start, nobody can realistically trust such an assurance (again a point Seth made), which is exactly why you have the policy in the first place, to avoid the issue coming up.

On the topic of being a shareholder - remember, WATA was initially a tiny garage band operation. It didn't have minor shareholders like IBM or Microsoft has minor shareholders. They weren't offering 0.00001% stakes on some public exchange. To be a shareholder you clearly had to be fairly involved in the actual work of getting the company off the ground. He didn't just see the symbol come up in Robinhood and think it looked interesting or something.

A shareholder of Microsoft owning a copy of Windows has significant differences in both nature and scale from a shareholder of WATA selling WATA-graded games. WATA sells an allegedly 'objective' and 'impartial' grading service. That's not the same thing as software products or boxes of cornflakes or something.

Appearances of potential conflict, I agree it’s an issue. But that’s where grading companies are generally in a tough spot. As we sit here today, [i]the same company owns PSA, WATA, and Goldin[/i]. Doesn’t that potentially create the appearance of a million conflicts? Not only do people gloss over that, but some have suggested now that WATA has sold, CU will save them. It’s just a massive contradiction to me. Where are we drawing a line in collectibles and subjective grading companies? 

Seems the video game community views a lot of this differently than, for example, sports cards collectors. I think it’s because there’s always been a schism between “real collectors” and “investors,” and this has set the microscope times 10,000.

3 hours ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Why not?

Clearly it is not! Like... why pose the question? How in any world could that be ethical? It's NOT ETHICAL!!! lol jesus

I do not see why it’s unethical for investors to use WATA. It would be highly unethical (and quite possibly more) for WATA to treat them differently than other customers, however. Or, of course, for graders to grade their own games.  

If the government ever came in and regulated collectibles, I highly doubt they’d precent minority share investors from using the services.

2 hours ago, AdamW said:

Um, except his statement goes to great lengths to minimize his association with WATA, which is a tough look to pull off when there's that screenshot lying around.

Let's be clear about what the accusation is here. It's not that he hid something, so "he didn't hide anything" is not a defence. The accusation is that he had games graded by WATA and traded in games graded by WATA, as a significant shareholder, promoter, and - as you point out - "chief advisor" of WATA, after WATA's CEO told the New York Times that employees could not have games graded or trade in graded games. And he did not deny any of those things.

In a court of law you could pick nits about whether he was an "employee", but I would say that any reasonable person reading what the NYT reported Deniz as saying would expect it to cover a guy with his name in lights on the WATA website. Would you disagree?

I’ll be honest, I would absolutely distinguish between employee/on the ground worker and  shareholder/advisor. One is down on the ground overseeing everything and could easily have direct influence in their daily activities, [i]most notably grading[/i], while the other is not. So, literally, he denied exactly that. 

What this really boils down to is whether Mark received preferential treatment or grading. I personally do not care if the investors/advisors use the service, provided they are treated as any other customer. Would you agree or disagree that investors should be able to use the service? I can see both arguments. I think that is what is really of issue in the ethics debate.
 

2 hours ago, Gloves said:

Come on lol.

 

"I have put money into the company, and am an equity stakeholder. I am featured as an Executive Team member on their site (to this day!). I've never had any oversight role (CHIEF ADVISOR!?!?). I DON'T WORK FOR WATA!!!!"

Mark Haspel did not know the first thing about sealed games when WATA started up. I can assure you he was not capable of overseeing WATA even if he wanted to lol. He was brought on as a liaison to the collectibles community. 

As for a “nondenial,” he’s been public about this for years and has never hidden it. There was never going to be a denial, and in fact he literally states right there he’s been buying, submitting, and selling. I’m not saying if it’s wrong or not, but clearly HE has been under the impression it is not because he’s been 100% open. WATA should have been more clear about his role. 

Ultimately, I think this all boils down to whether it is or is not ethical for investors in a grading company to use the service. 

No mention of the 300k Halo yet?

It’s almost like some people here got tired and decided to sleep .

2 hours ago, tidaldreams said:

Yeah, that's what I was saying. This is super sketchy IMO. other auction houses besides heritage don't even have a BP so the price you see is the price you pay and they only tack on a nominal fee (~3%) if you pay by CC.

I think ComicLink does? And also doesn’t show it until checkout. I could be wrong, but that is my recollection. It’s on the smaller side, though.

@ShmupAdded! 
 

Oh, just saw your new post now lemme know if you wanna delete it

3 hours ago, AdamW said:

The things that I think are new are Karl's establishing of the dates when Jeff was a director of WATA (and definitely establishing that he was one when the Carolina Collection was graded), and Seth's establishing that Mark has been selling graded games while being listed as part of WATA's "Executive Team" with a watagames.com email address. I don't recall those facts being established previously.

The Jeff thing was in an old NA thread and Mark Haspel has not exactly been secret about anything he’s been doing, as he’s been buying and selling under his name in public in person and on Ebay. I don’t want to speak for anyone, but I believe neither had anything to do with day to day operations or were traditional employees in that sense. However, I am not sure if they were paid for other roles. Jeff seems to indicate the latter, Mark not sure. 

Not trying to make judgments about these things one way or another, btw, just addressing what’s new. Though I suppose that is relative. 

 

16 minutes ago, Mijael said:

I am not even getting those atomated messages. Can't wait to send my games to CGC 

People will soon realize this is a collectibles-wide issue. CGC’s comics are wayyyy behind, too.

1 hour ago, Crystalis88 said:

Different time. We’re in the Information Age. Harder to get away with stuff hence why all of this is coming to light so quickly.

Quickly? It’s all been public for like 3 years lol. There was a thread on NA in early 2019. I don’t think anything being “reported” has been hidden.

Edit - Prob better info for another thread

26 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

In all seriousness, do we know that, though?  He could have quietly amassed a collection and we'd likely never know about it, simply because most people, and the media, didn't much care about anything that he had in his house(s) when everything was auctioned, save the truly bizarre stuff.  I wonder if there's a formal listing of everything that was at the estate when it was all sold off, and if so, what things we might find that are relevant to our interests.  I know that he was famous for having a huge, elaborate arcade set up in a basement, so it wouldn't surprise me at all to hear about stacks upon stacks of console games kept somewhere as well.

There is a Moonwalker prototype that was discovered years ago at a flea market near his home that had all sorts of cool differences, including sound track and a completely different final level, that is rumored to have come from there.

This person sold it to someone else, and that other person made a video, but has since removed it. My guess is he might have sold it himself and the new owner asked for removal or something? Just a guess on that, though.

There are websites like 130 point that can nail down final price, but given like 25% of sales on Ebay end up not being paid or a nightmare, people generally avoid them for large sales. Happens on other forums as well, just nowhere near the level of Ebay. And there are better guarantees and safety measures elsewhere.