jonebone

For you crypto folks, where do hold it and how do you claim it on taxes? I'm thinking about adding a little to the portfolio in tax year 22 and figured I'd ask.

Just fasten to wall, that's how mine is hung.

Don't waste your money.

As a Mario 64 owner it's funny watching people pile over themselves to get rid of them. No way they hold that massive hype price now. It will always be valuable but not 7 figure valuable.

The VGA scale used to have no plus signs and then the 85+ evolved out of the necessity to have a grade between 85 and 90 as the graded population increased. It's nothing for or against Wata as a company, it is just inevitable the 9.9 will evolve as the 9.8 graded copies become numerous. I could also see a "A+++" (probably called something else) evolving that will consitute a perfect or near perfect seal. The current A++ seal rating is more like 9.4-10 type seals and the 10 type seals should command significant premium over 9.4 sealed barely making A++.

I have high confidence saying there aren't 50 perfect SMB64s out there. Rarebucky's case was from 2007 / 2008. I suspect someone else may have subbed a case and not used the "U" designation for perceived rarity, but the collecting pool has been looking for case fresh copies since then. Even when it was only a $2k game the return was worth it to try and find the mint ones. Now the collecting pool is infinitely larger and they just aren't going to pop up like that. One thing that people haven't mentioned yet, is that I like knowing I'm done with a game at Wata 9.8 A++. You don't have that same feeling on VGA scale. I hated upgrading from 90 to 90+, maybe would go 90 to 95 if opportunity presented itself, but even a game like Mario 64 has a 95+ out there. Knowing that you're done upgrading a game has some intrinsic value that is hard to quantify. Though in all honesty, the Wata 9.9 has to come out in the next 5 years. It'll piss off a lot of 9.8 owners but it will invigorate the market again and cause a ton of resubs (more money). That's kind of inevitable IMO.

Well Nintendoage was a forum, that's the main reason people went there. However, through the forum participation, databases were created. Forum members scanned in manuals and boxes. A rarity guide was there but more or less a swag and not something updated continually. There was an eZine that was popular but not enough participation to keep going more than quarterly by the end. And to be fair, Nintendo age was mostly a centralized location of stuff. Checklists of "sets" for collecting, scans of items, etc. Most of that information could be found elsewhere, so it's not like Jeff bought NA and instantly has executive power to delete all info from the internet. People were also given enough warning that they could backup whatever they deemed was important to them.

Majora's Mask is extremely prevalant, $6k on 9.4 A++ Is a strong sale there. Seller is happy. SMB2 9.4 A+ at $90k would have been absolutely stellar in ordinary thinking, but with the current Mario hype, I would have expected $125k+ there. But anything above $50k there shows that the current Wata drama has no bearing on the market right now.

Well that's completely inaccurate. Wata was Deniz and Ken's idea dating back to NA campouts back in the 2013-2014 days. Halperin wanted to get in on it I'm sure, but not his idea. And I can understand the bolded point of view. Perhaps a person in his stature should not comment on values. But in terms of the $100k Mario from Jan 2019, that was easily $150k by that summer and by the Pawn Stars airing I would have pegged it at $250k+. He said $300k or so? He wasn't lying and artificially pumping. It was blatantly obvious to any "expert" sealed collector that that game was already worth much more than price paid. Just wanted to clarify. Maybe he shouldn't speak on that (fair point), but he didn't pull values out of his ass (which I'm not sure if you are implying or not.)

Oh yes, as a collector it sucks getting priced out of stuff and many of us have been waiting a long time for buying opportunities. I wish pricing gains would be more linear than parabolic indeed. I'm fine with any articles that short the market, just as someone who knows Deniz personally, you couldn't be more wrong about him. I can't speak to Halperin. End of day, my take was Wata marketed their concept heavily at comic conventions. That's your answer of "why Wata over VGA?", VGA did not innovate, did not market and frankly did not care about growing. Wata did, so not only did they take market share, but they created new market share too. As for the Carolina collection... it was a mixed bag in terms of popularity (most were against it, myself included), but I kinda get it. @Dain probably had a top 5 collection at the time (in terms of public collectors, and just IMO) and he was basically the godfather of the collecting community by creating NA. Him getting bought out was a big deal and I see Deniz / Ken naming it as more of a ode to someone we viewed as a mentor, rather than a value push. And value wise, there is none. I have a Carolina Collection Boulder Dash 9.4 A+ that I couldn't even sell for the $999 OBO Boulder Dash VGA 85+ that is on eBay. The name adds no value, at least it hasn't up to today. Either way, they can answer for the conflict of interests as it's quite overlapping. Where we disagree is the amount of collusion. These guys weren't sitting around thinking how can we make millions, they were just people with a vision who knew this hobby would hit millions regardless, and they marketed it forward. Should it have been more transparent? Sure. Would the results have been different? Maybe slower, but we'd still be hitting crazy highs in the future due to the vast marketing and cross-over collectors.

Man this thread is just like the video game market itself. Everytime it hits a new high and accelerates in terms of page count, it just breaks out and hits new highs again and again! My only comment to @karljobst is that your "experts" of Pat (a cart only collector) and ReservedInvestments (who has been saying Wata games were a bubble for 2.5 years now) weren't exactly relevant experts. Analogies I saw thrown around were asking the electrician to do the plumbing in your house. You could ask any longtime sealed collector with 10+ years experience for what they think of market values and see what kind of response you get. For the record I thought Mario 64 was going to go $250k-$300k at the time and $1.6M was Earth shattering. The point I'm making there is that while the hobby has accelerated and gone parabolic way more than people realize, there's still "intrinsic value" in the collecting community that have been way higher than before. I get unsolicited messages not quite daily but at least a few times a week from people trying to buy high grade sealed games out of my collection. The highest of the high is definitely influenced by fractional ownership (can send stuff to stratosphere), but there is simply 10 fold more organic demand from collectors / speculators / investors than there was at the beginning of 2019. You have a lot of the old crew still here that never left and tons and tons of new blood. Of course higher demand equals higher prices, though we got too high too fast IMO, but you can never estimate how much people will FOMO.

Come on man, don't give that Seth Abramson any ounce of credibility. He's been parading around the FB groups lately and it's clear he has an extremely large ego and thinks that he knows it all with less than a year in the market. With that example, no more than a case evolution. Excitebike was graded 10/1/19 and these new mold red copies are graded July 21. I'm assuming that after the huge lot of moldy games was on eBay this Spring, Wata realized that these really needed to be tagged somehow if poeple are going to get in the business of grading moldy games. Any collector knows that is quite possibly the most extreme and severe flaw possible for a sealed game and not really desirable. If anything that bolsters the argument that Wata is trying to protect their buyer base instead of put one past them. And someday, I can almost 100% guarantee that CIB and Sealed games will probably have different colors to make it even more clear as well. Cases evolve over time.

The exact quotes that made me think he hates graded games: "As someone who does care deeply about gaming, it honestly sickens me that these people have turned these cherished possessions into a means to gamble and speculate", while the exact backdrop shown is graded games. I suppose one can argue that I am making a jump from "these cherished possessions" equaling graded games, as the type of speculation and gambling that he references is not prevalent in non-graded. But the prior 30 seconds is him showing loose carts being listed for $1000, which we all know has no bearing on the market when they auction for $30 all day long, but that was my take on the article at least.

VGA Mario Galaxy 95s were selling at $5,000 over this summer too... End of day people are entitled to think what they'd like. I'm a collector and would love for some more back to Earth pricing. Sit back and see what happens.

Amen! And he makes you watch 51 minutes of that until he reveals his ulterior motive in hating graded games. Clearly written with an agenda, yet is being touted as some damning factual evidence.

Except toothpicks are infinite goods, and games are actually finite. Oh and toothpicks are more or less exactly identical in condition, where the finite supply bevomes ever smaller Mint. Todd and John cant create the hobby unless 1000s of people play under them as well. If Todd and John create 1000 followers overnight with no knowledge of the hobby, then it's very risky. In our hobby if you stick to the 1000 number, I'd say it's roughly half and half of well-informed collector vs. complete novice. Even people who have only been around 2 years at this point have a decent read of the market. And even if you are a complete novice, it's you choosing to spend your money correct? Sure argue for more transparency, I'm not going to argue that. But huge difference between asking for more transparency and calling them scammers or fraud and what not.

Okay, then consider me an expert 3rd party opinion on terms of value, and ignore his comments entirely. Though actually I was listed as on the Wata advisory board at one point, so hopefully my response isn't considered colluding. That $100k Mario game in Jan 2019 was easily $150k by that summer. I think rumors offered a Mantle card in trade for it at one point, but don't recall specifics. By the time of the taping I believe Deniz said $300k+? I would have said $250k+ myself at the time as someone with no affiliation. And in rare item pricing you can never estimate the top end. I would have said $250k-$300k on Mario 64 and boom, we had $1.6M. So yeah, maybe it's a bad look to do so brazenly but who's a better expert than him? People talk and a person in his position hears a lot I'm sure. Again people can cry foul but he has been extremely honest in all of his public assessments of value. It'd be so easy to embellish but it's much more hard to stay modest and truly pinning down where you think an item is at a given moment.

I'll add one detailed counter response if anyone cares to read. You have to watch until the 51 minute part until the agenda becomes clear, he admits hating graded games. Compare this to any real investigative journalism like 20/20 where they interview all parties, he never bothered to reach out to any of the people he was tarnishing. Even CNN and professional sites will at least say that so-and-so said "No Comment", when asked; we didn't even get that. His "experts" (Pat / Other guy) both hate grading, not to mention Pat is a hypocrite who tried to pump his NWCs on Pawn Stars eons ago. Now Wata does it and he cries foul. Why not interview some actual graded collectors who have collected for a decade plus and get their thoughts on how wacky or sane this market is? Asking a cart collector for opinions on sealed games is like having your English teacher grade your math homework. When Deniz mentioned Wata to me years ago I wished him luck and thought he was a few years too late. We were right off the NES classic which tanked loose cart values and the gamers had their fix in hacking them. What was left were the collectors and the market was very stagnant, no new blood coming in. I severely underestimated their marketing though. It was as simple as take a Wata prototype case to a bunch of comic shows around the country and get people to buy in. It's not collusion, it's about a college kid having a business plan, marketing that idea and then entering into exclusive deals so his brand would outperform VGA. Perhaps he underestimated the public outcry from having big name investors like Halperin / Gocollect be named on filing reports, but those guys are just investors and not employees in the day to day operations. As far as "pumping" in general? What do you want people to say? Of course sealed collectors believe the hobby will go up. I knew we'd have a million dollar game in my lifetime, though I expected to be in my 50s (I'm 37). If you want to blame the massive acceleration fine... but the values were going to get there one day anyway. I personally think that fractional ownership is a MUCH bigger force behind acceleration than collusion, but to each their own. At least the owner did note that, as that is a big contributor to where we are. But end of day of course you are going to believe in your vision. It's like when you work at a company and they give you stock options. You want your company to perform well so the stock options are worth more. Does that make you a manipulator? Same here, he loves collecting and wanted the hobby to grow. In doing so Wata has naturally grown as well and values have taken off. It's what came first the chicken or the egg? He didn't make up values to grow his business, the market has created their values by using HA and Wata and those companies naturally reap the benefits. End of day believe what you want, but if the news articles are guilty of "pumping" the market then this article is guilty of attempting to short with a lot of finger pointing and not speaking to anyone really in the know.

I usually don't take the bait but yes, I would go to bat for his reputation any day of the week. It's not my job to be his defender but he had the Wata idea started very early in his life. All of these conflict of interest arguments were made 2.5 years ago and I agree they aren't the best look. But that's for them to worry about, not me. I just know that as a person, Deniz is not just one of, but probably the most humble and genuine collectors I ever met. If others around him have muddied the waters that will never change my opinion of him.

People don't full set collect anymore. Well, the investors / speculators driving the market aren't full set collecting.

If it makes you feel better, I won it for $1500 offer when it was initially listed, then he relisted back at auction 5 minutes later saying he had higher offers. So it was backdoored twice!

Red is clearly a mold designation color. Nice to see that they really called it out as Mold is about the most severe flaw a game can have IMO.

Come on man, you bring it on yourself. You sit here and talk about Wata population reports like this little thing called VGA doesn't exist. You can preach what you want but don't get so damn offended when someone calls you out on it. No one is bragging so sorry you read it that way. If you would like me to talk about selling Super Mario World 85+ for pennies compared to today's values, or Super Metroid VGA 90, 85+ and 85+ with no sealed copies left to show for it, I can give you plenty of stories from the "gee I invested wrong perspective." End of day, people build their collections in the way they deem fit and should be proud of them. I'm thankful for where some values are today (though it's so damn tough to buy these days) but it was always a mix of skill and luck. You can be much happier having a collection you love and missing out on some upside rather than investing wrong and having something you don't even want.

It's always a trade off on price, condition and variation / print. Always has been and always will. You can always find stuff you like on a budget if you sacrifice on condition or completeness or print.

You'll get plenty of great data points in the next auction, TM Zelda and RE1 longbox should bring in some whales, who knows what else will make the auction too. But this thread makes me sad of the state of collecting today. People are literally arguing about what is the better investment, Mortal Kombat or Pokemon. What happened to the collecting mentality of buy the stuff you like and not treat everything as a max investment decision? I'd much rather own the stuff I like no questions asked. For me I've had a MK1 sealed for many years and no pokemons until a Yellow picked up in mid 2020. And I'm very happy with the decision regardless of missed profit opportunity when Pokemons were $400-$500 sealed all day long.