General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Tulpa | 3,569]

1 minute ago, Silent Hill said:

Racism is definitely real, but I stand on the side of it being an individual issue versus systemic. 

If enough individuals do it, and others don't speak up against it, it becomes systemic. And it has.

 

[Silent Hill | 276]

2 minutes ago, The Strangest said:

He didn’t. He was let out the next morning, had it changed, and went about his life. He didnt want to spend time fighting it, he just wanted to finish getting his degree (transferred from UT Chatt to the university I attended). He wasn’t certain that he would A. win or B. gain much from it if he did.

Fair enough, I may have done the same. Juice isn't worth the squeeze so-to-speak. 
 

If there isn't an active TN law regarding that, then he was definitely treated unfairly. But I still wonder if it was only because of his skin color, or if that cop was just a pecker in general. 

[Tulpa | 3,569]

4 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

If there isn't an active TN law regarding that, then he was definitely treated unfairly. But I still wonder if it was only because of his skin color, or if that cop was just a pecker in general. 

That's the thing, not every cop does it, but quite a few do, and other cops don't speak out about it (either because they're friends or, more frighteningly, fear of retaliation, as happened to NYPD officer Frank Serpico, among others. He didn't speak out specifically about racism, but corruption in general, and was shot for it.) It becomes ingrained within the system, and thus, systemic. It's not only cops, but you find it in a lot of society. Often to the point where white people don't notice it, and therefore "it isn't a problem."

Edited June 22, 2020 by Tulpa

[Silent Hill | 276]

2 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

If enough individuals do it, and others don't speak up against it, it becomes systemic. And it has.

 

I don't agree with that definition. What's the threshold for the amount of racist individuals to transcend into systemic? Does this threshold apply to all races equally?

[Tulpa | 3,569]

2 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

I don't agree with that definition. What's the threshold for the amount of racist individuals to transcend into systemic? Does this threshold apply to all races equally?

That's the thing, it evolves into a moving target. People (primarily white people) dismiss it because they don't see it as racism, or aren't familiar with it.

They want it to be concrete. Cracker uses the N-word, well that's racism. But then they don't see the more subtle, insidious parts, or they're uncomfortable calling it out.

You want a clean, neat definition, but often it doesn't have one. So you dismiss it as "well it's individuals." And so you let it persist.

[Tulpa | 3,569]

12 minutes ago, Link said:

I’m sorry I left out the qualifier. I meant to refer to “quality education” not just “education”. I know schools are different in different regions /cities /neighborhoods. Predominantly white areas (while YES, some are poor and shitty, arguing such ignores that most are not) more often have high quality schools than predominantly black areas. So the graduation rate can be seen as rather close, but the resources and skills imparted are lower in communities where more people struggle more. Which is the case affecting black people more often as a percentage of the total than white people, because racial community makeup is still stratified due to decades and centuries of policy.

Yeah, definitely some schools just "graduate" students to get them out of their classrooms, even if they wouldn't pass in a more, let's just say, quality school setting.

[Silent Hill | 276]

2 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

That's the thing, it evolves into a moving target. People (primarily white people) dismiss it because they don't see it as racism, or aren't familiar with it.

They want it to be concrete. Cracker uses the N-word, well that's racism. But then they don't see the more subtle, insidious parts, or they're uncomfortable calling it out.

You want a clean, neat definition, but often it doesn't have one. So you dismiss it as "well it's individuals." And so you let it persist.

Don't you think having systemic racism be so fluid is a problem? It should have a clean, neat definition otherwise its too simple to just lump unequal outcomes into that bucket. Systemic would be a widespread system, law, policy, etc. that intentionally impacts the outcome of a specific race. Do you have an example that's currently present?

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Well it doesnt look like the BLM rallies caused an increase in corona virus cases:

https://people.com/health/black-lives-matter-protests-no-spike-in-coronavirus-cases/

 

 

 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

1 minute ago, Silent Hill said:

Don't you think having systemic racism be so fluid is a problem? It should have a clean, neat definition otherwise its too simple to just lump unequal outcomes into that bucket. Systemic would be a widespread system, law, policy, etc. that intentionally impacts the outcome of a specific race. Do you have an example that's currently present?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/us-systemic-racism-in-charts-graphs-data-2020-6%3famp

[Silent Hill | 276]

 

7 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

21 minutes ago, Link said:

I’m sorry I left out the qualifier. I meant to refer to “quality education” not just “education”. I know schools are different in different regions /cities /neighborhoods. Predominantly white areas (while YES, some are poor and shitty, arguing such ignores that most are not) more often have high quality schools than predominantly black areas. So the graduation rate can be seen as rather close, but the resources and skills imparted are lower in communities where more people struggle more. Which is the case affecting black people more often as a percentage of the total than white people, because racial community makeup is still stratified due to decades and centuries of policy.

Yeah, definitely some schools just "graduate" students to get them out of their classrooms, even if they wouldn't pass in a more, let's just say, quality school setting.

I agree that inner city schools aren't doing their students any favors and they do graduate at a lower academic level than other districts, and that actually impacts the college drop-out rates too. That's why I'm all for vouchers so folks who live in those areas can place their kids in better districts. That's actually why I moved last year because I don't want my kids going to Columbus Public Schools like I did. A lot of people can do the same too, if they desire.

That said, it may impact specific races to varying degrees, but it's not like those school districts are intentionally shitty, just to disserve a specific race.  Education is a whole different beast to discuss. 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

 

lol. He looks like someone stole his ice cream. Payback is going to be a terrible, terrible bitch. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

6 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/us-systemic-racism-in-charts-graphs-data-2020-6%3famp

I'll finish going through all charts later but so far there's no context to the numbers. Just raw data, and yes, it doesn't appear to be good at face value. You must take a multi-factor approach for these, otherwise you're just left thinking "well, the outcome isn't equal, so there must be some type of overarching discrimination at play". 

 

 

1. Employment: COVID hit every race and black unemployment was at an all-time low before it hit (actually in part to Trump, surprisingly or not). Education plays a factor into this as well.

2. CEOs: Again, education is the main factor. Unless there's data around properly educated black people being denied C-Level jobs due to their race. 

3. Wage gap: Education...

4. Income: Education and types of employment stats would be helpful

5. Median household income: Single parent homes (~75% of black households) surely bring that number down for their population.

 

[Tulpa | 3,569]

18 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Don't you think having systemic racism be so fluid is a problem?

Of course it's a problem, and that's the point. That's what minorities have been screaming about for decades if not centuries. They try to enlighten the majority, and the majority tells them, "That doesn't fit my definition of racism."

18 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

 It should have a clean, neat definition otherwise its too simple to just lump unequal outcomes into that bucket. Systemic would be a widespread system, law, policy, etc.

Sorry, it doesn't have the Scarface "I exist so you can point at me and say, 'that's the bad guy.'" Most people who engage in it don't think of themselves as the bad guy. And minorities don't want to call them the bad guy, but they still get shafted by the majority's behavior, and it's hit the point and past the point where they can't take it anymore.

18 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

 Systemic would be a widespread system, law, policy, etc. that intentionally impacts the outcome of a specific race.

It doesn't have to be intentional. There's no racist cabal pushing buttons and screwing over minorities. It's deep in society. We often unintentionally engage in it without even knowing. But when we're made aware of it, we should do something. Heck, we should make the effort to educate ourselves on what it is. There's plenty of resources out there.

But if you insist on a clean, neat defintion, I don't know what to tell you. Other than I can see why it continues to exist.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Tulpa

[fcgamer | 4,792]

3 hours ago, CodysGameRoom said:

It would be nice if this board was more diverse and we could get some opinions from people who've actually experienced racism. It could help put things in perspective. 

We do. But it was discredited for not being the right kind.

[Silent Hill | 276]

27 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

44 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

Don't you think having systemic racism be so fluid is a problem?

Of course it's a problem, and that's the point. That's what minorities have been screaming about for decades if not centuries. They try to enlighten the majority, and the majority tells them, "That doesn't fit my definition of racism."

44 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

 It should have a clean, neat definition otherwise its too simple to just lump unequal outcomes into that bucket. Systemic would be a widespread system, law, policy, etc.

Sorry, it doesn't have the Scarface "I exist so you can point at me and say, 'that's the bad guy.'" Most people who engage in it don't think of themselves as the bad guy. And minorities don't want to call them the bad guy, but they still get shafted by the majority's behavior, and it's hit the point and past the point where they can't take it anymore.

44 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

 Systemic would be a widespread system, law, policy, etc. that intentionally impacts the outcome of a specific race.

It doesn't have to be intentional. There's no racist cabal pushing buttons and screwing over minorities. It's deep in society. We often unintentionally engage in it without even knowing. But when we're made aware of it, we should do something. Heck, we should make the effort to educate ourselves on what it is. There's plenty of resources out there.

But if you insist on a clean, neat defintion, I don't know what to tell you. Other than I can see why it continues to exist

Prior to the Civil Rights movement, I can obviously understand why minorities were “screaming” because systemic racism actually existed. Like I said earlier, in 2020, it’s a wild goose chase. There are equal rights and opportunities for everyone, at a legal level. The majority of America is not racist, and we’re quick to call out blatant racism, at least at a national level. (You see people like Michael Richards, Rosanne, Paula Dean, etc. get destroyed for making racist remarks). So even though it’s 100% unacceptable behavior morally (and I’m sure a vast majority, if not all of us here were taught it was wrong growing up) there’s still this widespread, yet hidden, rampant racism within the population and systems of America, that’s still oppressing black people today?  How do you even address something that you can’t pinpoint? Just remind everyone not to be racist? That’s why the fluidity is dangerous, it can be molded to be a culprit of just about any unequal outcome  

 

And I hope you’re not implying that my desire for a definitive definition/example perpetuates the issue. How am I enabling racism (systemic or individual) when I’ve taken no racist action in my life?

 

 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

17 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

We do. But it was discredited for not being the right kind.

 No. It gets discredited for being false, or BS. Remember how you wrote me off by saying “cool story, I have black friends too”

 

Then a few pages ago you said “I dont have African american friends, I have colored” or something to that point (which, if you did say “colored” thats not respectful either)

 

So is it False, or BS?

[Tulpa | 3,569]

19 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

So even though it’s 100% unacceptable behavior morally (and I’m sure a vast majority, if not all of us here were taught it was wrong growing up) there’s still this widespread, yet hidden, rampant racism within the population and systems of America, that’s still oppressing black people today?

Yes, and oppressing others. Again, you're looking for the blatant acts and missing the subtle ones.

When the Civil Rights Act was passed, the systemic acts didn't end. Racists started making them more subtle. And a lot of America went right along with it. Unwittingly, and it's understandable why they weren't able to see it, but that doesn't mean we can't do something about it.

19 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

 How do you even address something that you can’t pinpoint?

You educate yourself on what it actually is. Like I said, there are resources out there. You just need to start looking.

I mean, I can cite examples, but examples aren't the only thing. There's a whole wealth of knowledge out there. We just tend to ignore it.

19 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

And I hope you’re not implying that my desire for a definitive definition/example perpetuates the issue.

Your insistence that it has to have a concrete, readily identifiable issue certainly doesn't help. I don't think you're racist, no, but I think you are missing the point.

I mean, do I desire a definitive definition? Sure, it would make getting rid of it SO much easier.

But I know it isn't neat and clean, and that's why it continues to exist.

19 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

 How am I enabling racism (systemic or individual) when I’ve taken no racist action in my life?

Are you sure? I mean, I'm not always sure, but I try to look at what I'm doing, and make efforts to learn. It's more than just not using the n-word, you know.

Individually? No, I don't think you are. Systemic racism is far more insidious.

 

BTW, no one is expecting it to disappear overnight, or having a magic bullet. Defeating systemic racism is HARD. It's uncomfortable. It requires taking a real, honest look at ourselves.

And it's worth the effort.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Tulpa

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

1 hour ago, Silent Hill said:

I'll finish going through all charts later but so far there's no context to the numbers. Just raw data, and yes, it doesn't appear to be good at face value. You must take a multi-factor approach for these, otherwise you're just left thinking "well, the outcome isn't equal, so there must be some type of overarching discrimination at play". 

 

 

1. Employment: COVID hit every race and black unemployment was at an all-time low before it hit (actually in part to Trump, surprisingly or not). Education plays a factor into this as well.

2. CEOs: Again, education is the main factor. Unless there's data around properly educated black people being denied C-Level jobs due to their race. 

3. Wage gap: Education...

4. Income: Education and types of employment stats would be helpful

5. Median household income: Single parent homes (~75% of black households) surely bring that number down for their population.

 

If it wasnt systemic, all races should be close to equally represented based on population density. Skin color should have no bearing At all. 

[Silent Hill | 276]

2 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

If it wasnt systemic, all races should be close to equally represented based on population density. Skin color should have no bearing At all. 

In a world where every race had the same culture and made the same decisions, sure. But clearly that’s not the case. Unequal outcomes doesn’t (by default) equate to unequal opportunity, especially unequal opportunity based on skin color. Why don’t other minority groups have the same disparities? Why are there disparities within each race itself (black Americans vs black immigrants). Surely if it was systemic, black immigrants would be oppressed in the same ways, yet there are many disparities between them and black Americans. (Crime, income, family structure, education, etc). It’s more about culture/family structure and individual decisions than systemic racism/oppression.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

3 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

In a world where every race had the same culture and made the same decisions, sure. But clearly that’s not the case. Unequal outcomes doesn’t (by default) equate to unequal opportunity, especially unequal opportunity based on skin color. Why don’t other minority groups have the same disparities? Why are there disparities within each race itself (black Americans vs black immigrants). Surely if it was systemic, black immigrants would be oppressed in the same ways, yet there are many disparities between them and black Americans. (Crime, income, family structure, education, etc). It’s more about culture/family structure and individual decisions than systemic racism/oppression.

How can an immigrant get systemically prejudiced against in a country they didnt live in their whole life? We are talking about black people born in the US. Most other “groups” dont have the same history as Blacks in the US (Outside of Native Americans). A majority of Latino and Asian came here within a few generations as immigrants, Blacks were brought here as Slaves. 

[fcgamer | 4,792]

18 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

 Then a few pages ago you said “I dont have African american friends, I have colored” or something to that point (which, if you did say “colored” thats not respectful either)

@MrWunderful : I was hoping someone would "call me out" on this, glad you're the one to do it, as it just shows, yet again, why we shouldn't be pushing a one-sided fits all agenda, especially without looking at the whole picture.

Yeah, my friend, he's coloured. That is most definitely the respectful word choice here. The guy is from and lives in South Africa, it would be racially offensive to call him and others like him "black". I'm not here to argue that South Africa is not racist, by all accounts that I've heard, it's a major problem; but it doesn't change the fact that coloured is not an offensive term, and actually would be the correct term, in this situation.  Go do some research and broaden your world view a bit.

 

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

7 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

@MrWunderful : I was hoping someone would "call me out" on this, glad you're the one to do it, as it just shows, yet again, why we shouldn't be pushing a one-sided fits all agenda, especially without looking at the whole picture.

Yeah, my friend, he's coloured. That is most definitely the respectful word choice here. The guy is from and lives in South Africa, it would be racially offensive to call him and others like him "black". I'm not here to argue that South Africa is not racist, by all accounts that I've heard, it's a major problem; but it doesn't change the fact that coloured is not an offensive term, and actually would be the correct term, in this situation.  Go do some research and broaden your world view a bit.

 

The Term “Colored” comes from the Jim Crow era. “People/ Person of color” is considered the respectful term.

Maybe just African.
 

Maybe you should ask your buddy

[fcgamer | 4,792]

1 minute ago, MrWunderful said:

The Term “Colored” comes from the Jim Crow era. “People/ Person of color” is considered the respectful term.

Maybe just African.
 

Maybe you should ask your buddy

I already did ask my buddy , we spoke about it at great length ten years ago, with me even bringing up the connotation in the USA.

The correct, non offensive term here is coloured. 

[Gloves | 11,890]

Just now, fcgamer said:

The correct, non offensive term here is coloured. 

According to your friend.

[Silent Hill | 276]

18 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

26 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

So even though it’s 100% unacceptable behavior morally (and I’m sure a vast majority, if not all of us here were taught it was wrong growing up) there’s still this widespread, yet hidden, rampant racism within the population and systems of America, that’s still oppressing black people today?

Yes, and oppressing others. Again, you're looking for the blatant acts and missing the subtle ones.

When the Civil Rights Act was passed, the systemic acts didn't end. Racists started making them more subtle. And a lot of America went right along with it. Unwittingly, and it's understandable why they weren't able to see it, but that doesn't mean we can't do something about it.

Can you give me an example of a subtle, unnoticed act of racism that impacts a minority's future and/or well-being? (a legal act would be preferred)

How many of these racists from the Civil Rights era are still pulling the strings today? Did they just pass along their racism playbook to their kin, or was it left as part of their organization's policy?

 

26 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

 How do you even address something that you can’t pinpoint?

You educate yourself on what it actually is. Like I said, there are resources out there. You just need to start looking.

I mean, I can cite examples, but examples aren't the only thing. There's a whole wealth of knowledge out there. We just tend to ignore it.

I understand the definition(s) bounced around as and I've looked at resources for both viewpoints. I watch/read one thing and can easily find something that directly counters every point made, so I try and go with the most logical resources, especially those that use statistical analysis.

 

18 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

26 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

And I hope you’re not implying that my desire for a definitive definition/example perpetuates the issue.

Your insistence that it has to have a concrete, readily identifiable issue certainly doesn't help. I don't think you're racist, no, but I think you are missing the point.

I mean, do I desire a definitive definition? Sure, it would make getting rid of it SO much easier.

But I know it isn't neat and clean, and that's why it continues to exist.

I feel like I get the point, but I struggle to get on board with something when there isn't a clear plan to the end-goal. The "solutions" are all over the board from defunding/abolishing the police to reparations, to holding city property hostage. I can't say I'm really behind any of those solutions. Give me an action and outcome that makes logical sense to fight systemic racism, and I'm willing to get on board. 

26 minutes ago, Silent Hill said:

 How am I enabling racism (systemic or individual) when I’ve taken no racist action in my life?

Are you sure? I mean, I'm not always sure, but I try to look at what I'm doing, and make efforts to learn. It's more than just not using the n-word, you know.

Individually? No, I don't think you are. Systemic racism is far more insidious.

BTW, no one is expecting it to disappear overnight, or having a magic bullet. Defeating systemic racism is HARD. It's uncomfortable. It requires taking a real, honest look at ourselves.

And it's worth the effort.

I've done nothing in my life that has stunted or negated the progress of another person because of their skin color, and I'm sure a lot of Americans are in the same boat. 

Hypothetically, let's say everyone is in favor of this movement. What action can be taken that will be the turning point? Will defunding/abolishing the police resolve systemic racism within the police force, or could it potentially amplify the chance of unlawful acts by cutting training and payroll funds thus creating a lower standard for recruitment? Not to mention the animosity against police right now. I'm sure their enrollment rates will drop because of this. 

What can we address that will close the other gaps in outcomes? (income, wealth, housing, crime, etc.). I mean there HAS to be something tangible to address in each of these buckets that is systemically oppressing black people, right? If you can't define that, then what are we doing? It's a pipe dream. An unobtainable utopia of equal outcomes for all.