Bronty

OK, so they were buying new stuff not vintage. Yeah that stuff dove off a cliff circa 93. Maybe your friends lasted til 94. I remember going to conventions around 1990 packed in like sardines; couldn't move - and going to conventions in 95 and it being wide open spaces....... and that was the vintage scene, which was healthier than the new scene.

Have you ever pulled out some of those sheets today? They are hard as a rock now some of them hehe

not sure how you define or that what they were buying, but almost everyone stopping buy new comics at that time. The vintage scene continued on, weakened but still going. The scene for brand new stuff just literally cratered. Much like sportscards they were being way overproduced and it imploded. And you, know, its over 25 years later now. That chicken eventually comes home to roost because eventually you don't have buyers that grew up with the material. Comic guys are well aware of it too - they know there's a demographic shift happening or to happen in the not that distant future to hobbies with younger engagement. That doesn't mean action 1 will *ever* be cheap, the special stuff marches on with increase after increase, but the rank and file items get harder and harder to sell as the population ages out. We are seeing that already, really.

yep I just added cards in to what I said; agree

AGree with almost everything you said. Magic is a good comparison point because the era, rarity of the 'rare' early cards, prices involved on those early cards, it all kinda lines up in about the same place as where games are now. We can argue if one is ahead or behind and you're probably right that games are behind but the point is, there are a lot of similarities there. Circulation on new comics cratered around 92/93. Magic started in 93 - its like there was a pretty clean break in kids at the time dropping reading and picking up cards. And games were popular throughout, but the early 90s was a really important time there too. Killer tomatoes I can't get behind at four figures though. If its a cult classic (maybe it is) then that's news to me.

i read the description and I'm still not sure what it is exactly. So this is some soundtrack? With an image inspired by banksy but not actually by banksy? Is that right?

what are the 10s so far jone?

I do agree. More to the point I think the whole scale is too soft. My understanding is they use the coin model where a midway grade is like, midway destroyed. To me all those shit grades and pointless, its the grades closer to the top people care about. Shit is shit. I don't care if its dog shit or cat shit. I'd give that thing a 3 personally. But, that's just my personal opinion, and as long as they apply their criteria consistently that's what matters. In fairness, cib games are a difficult thing to build a grading scale around.

I said nothing at all about uniqueness. First and foremost my issue was aesthetics. The secondary issue about lack of relevance was my POV only and many won’t share that view so I consider that much less important to an analysis of any future prospects

I tagged your name in the FB thread. Feel free to post what you like from that thread here

Agreed , but I hate feeling like I have to play around half the table

I'm not sure, but I do prefer proto boxes to proto carts.

I owned the pin for a while. Fun, and lots of cool stuff going on in it, but the left hand side of the playfield pissed me off. Cheap drains.

Protos definitely have the rarity, but will a market develop? A significant market hasn't really developed for ashcans. I tend to like rare and / or development material and so I did consider protos at one point but I kept coming back to this: They look like shit. The aesthetics are terrible. They don't look like something I'd want to spend that extra zero on. Fans of protos also will speak to their historical significance, and there is some for sure, but oftentimes all that *american* protos boil down to is a translation / localization. Tough for me to get too hard about having the original code for where somebody translated the japanese into "the truck have started to move" or whatever. Now, some people love them and I get that and no dis whatsoever to fans of them. But the aesthetics is probably a sticking point to big prices, IMO, at least to the sealed game crowd / new comic money crowd. The guys that are into NWCs and whatnot, if they get more into protos, then maybe they do up because they don't care about aesthetics, but those are the guys already buying them for the most part, so I don't see where the increase comes from, and I don't see protos as friendly to the new wave that is interested in aesthetics.

The aesthetics are terrific. One of my favorite items in my collection is the original painting for the Twilight pin backglass. I should have lifted the mylar sheet before taking the pic, but its the only pic I have handy.

I like the analogy too but I think its more like this: Tourist: I'd like to buy this beachfront property for 100k! that's crazy cheap compared to back home. Tourist B: I'd like to buy this beachfront property for 150k! that's crazy cheap compared to back home. At some point, when we get to tourist C, D, E or F - it won't look so cheap and it will flatten out. Nothing cures high prices like high prices.

mauahhaahah kudos! That's funny

I also think that people view all these separate parties acting in their own self interest as some kind of nefarious and coordinated scheme. Wata grades 'em. HA (and clink) auction 'em. Private people buy and sell 'em. The press writes about 'em. Those parties are generally unrelated but not everyone get that, yet.

Honestly, at the age of 13? We're talkin' about practice. If there is one paragraph in the article that interested me when I read it, it was the accusation of deceptive practices at NCI and the payment of restitution under the FTC, because those things don't happen lightly - they happen subject to formal process and as a result with much more rigour than any journalist or layman could apply. That was, in reading the article Jone posted, the part that made me think. However, when I see written public support from the former commissioner of the FTC openly pledging support for Heritage's position and even for its ethics, that makes me think that what happened was not so nefarious right? Its the equivalent of a former judge questioning the way another judge has applied the law, in public. That generally Does. Not. Happen. Lightly.

read the article I posted. 6 That is not what I said. Long after the interview, a Forbes' fact-checker essentially asked me if I was willing to say I was a scoundrel as a teenager, and I foolishly answered, "I guess at 13 I was." It's a minor distinction, but shows the slant of the article.7 Not that it matters much, but the sales network I advertised at age 13 was anything but "nonexistent". I delivered exactly what was promised (advertising in publications with a specific circulation), though in retrospect, most participants who bought ads from me for between $4 and $20 probably expected to get more orders than they actually received. I ran the business for 18 months without a single complaint lodged to any authority as far as I know (any participant who requested a refund got one immediately), and only after a sack of outgoing mail was inadvertently left in my parents' basement did the postal inspectors receive complaints. My father counseled me to agree to shut down the business and send out refunds, wise advice I reluctantly and tearfully heeded. I opened my stamp and coin shop as a summer project the following year using the only asset I had left, a prepaid lease on a store in nearby Cochituate, Massachusetts. 11 NCI was the first private grading service, and established many of the principles that allowed NGC and PCGS to eventually reshape the coin business for the better.12 NCI going out of business had nothing to do with the FTC. PCGS and NGC came out with better products, and after PCGS appeared, some unscrupulous telemarketers began selling NCI coins at PCGS prices. Heritage never sold any coins at above fair market, nor did we encourage such behavior in any way.13 NCI graded according to published standards. The NCI Grading Guide text I wrote in 1984 was the precursor to How to Grade U.S. Coins, which even Forbes says is a classic). PCGS adopted virtually identical standards, but at first interpreted those standards more stringently than NCI did. Today NGC and PCGS grading is virtually identical to, and in many cases slightly more liberal than, the way NCI graded most coins throughout its existence during the 1980s.14 This is perhaps the most egregious and misleading phrase in the Forbes article. Anyone reading it would think that Heritage owned or controlled CRCG. In fact, Heritage merely gave CRCG a credit line! The theory the FTC used was that by providing a credit line to CRGC we were "aiding and abetting" their activities. Interestingly, the immediately preceding Commissioner of the FTC wrote an open letter admonishing his successors for propagating such an overzealous enforcement theory (click here for the entire text of the letter). ---------- Summary In conclusion, the FTC's review of HCC's business practices uncovered no tangible evidence of deception or intent on HCC's part. Rather, the Commission's staff has fashioned the novel argument that since HCC may have known (or should have known) some facts from which HCC could infer that CRCG was deceiving its customers, HCC is itself culpable for CRCG's deception. In my opinion there is no way a company such as HCC could have anticipated such a drastic change in position on the part of the FTC. Furthermore, I believe HCC's actions were entirely consistent with ethical behavior.In my judgment, the FTC's investigation would, if tested at trial, fail to support its charges against HCC. I do, however, understand and appreciate the business considerations that led to HCC's settlement with the FTC.Very truly yours,George W. Douglas

Agree 100%. What I don't care for is everyone leaping to assumptions. Find me an auction house NOT mired in controversy (even ebay?). Its a business where a certain percentage of the people that deal with you are going to get pissed off. I've just not seen any evidence over my past 15 years of watching them of anything other than acting precisely as an auction house should. That doesn't necessarily mean saving buyers from themselves btw, because they also have responsibilities to the seller. It means, more or less, providing enough info for the buyer to get reasonable information and the seller to get an opportunity at a good prices, and having the logistics behind the scenes to keep everything running smoothly. Meanwhile, I think for a lot of people on this site its their first experience with an auction house and so they think its all nefarious and shady. From what I've seen and from talking to people who use them regularly, Heritage is anything but. So when people suggest that they are scheming around video games (when games are a rounding error to their overall operation) is just.. well its naive. Its fearful. Its also inaccurate, to the best of my belief.

two sides to a story jone. I found this with a little google. Also found some coin forum talk about NCI coins sent to modern companies and getting the same or similar grades (sometimes over, sometimes under, sometimes same). https://www.ha.com/c/ref/halperin.zx?type=surl-forbes (Note not only Jim's own words but that of George Douglas, former Commissioner to the FTC)

Not really. Whatever I can find at a price I can deal with, basically.

Hi, sorry, what image? You mean the black box cut out art link?

I’ll provide some points to think about from what might be a different perspective then the ‘conspiracy theory’ POVs some here subscribe to. 1. I don’t know Jim but I’ve heard enough to believe Jim is already a very, very wealthy man. Those that think he’s doing this to get rich or whatever? It’s so incredibly off base. It’s like thinking Eminem is going to get rich off of you downloading a song or something. The fact that Deniz even managed to get heritage’s Attention to even want to list games is such a major coup for growing the hobby that words can’t even describe it. Until you have a real platform for the sale of games in this kind of setting, the hobby cannot grow past a certain point. I don’t think you guys appreciate just how much this changes everything, or perhaps you do, and that’s why some of you are lashing out. 2. As for Jim’s and Heritages repitation, I know this. I’ve never heard first hand from any collector of comics or cards or coins (and I’ve dealt with so many people that have done business with them, as I have myself) of anything less than professional dealings. Do you have any idea the amount of work that goes into running an enterprise like that? Someone at the top of that generally has very little time for monkeying around and again, I don’t know Jim but from what I’ve seen, that’s not him. 3. Absolutely and of course some of the matters reported in the press are self serving and meant to promote the hobby and bring in new people and indirectly to increase values. And what in the world is wrong with that? We have more interest from more new people than we’ve had in a long time and they in turn are interested in bringing in more to join them. We should be celebrating that. We can stay a rinky dink hobby or we can let new people in with open arms. Yes, perhaps they can’t get to level 72 in bubble bobble. I would suggest that doesn’t matter. I have yet to meet a single new buyer that didn’t have some personal memories and nostalgia for the games to go along with their interest in collecting. 4. These types of articles aren’t going away. They were writing articles like this about comic books in the 1960s, and they still are. Sadly, with the same ‘Zip Boom Pow’ references. People love the idea of junk in the attic with value. We have 25 + years of antiques roadshow (plus now storage wars and so many other shows) to attest to the popularity of that type of thing with the masses. The “junk worth it’s weight in gold” angle is tired , but it works. 5. Some of you are pissed that you’ve been doing this for a long time and haven’t made ‘gorillions.’ Richardhead’s response that he’s been doing this all wrong was honest. Or perhaps just see a lot of change and find it scary or intimidating. I can understand that but at the end of the day, we are all pretty alike. We have some connection to the material, some connection to collecting itself, and given a choice between our stuff going up versus going down, we will generally choose up. 6. I’m not sure what some of you think is involved, exactly, in being a wata advisor but I can tell you that I’ve given no advice since the doors opened. I’m sure Jones experience was the same. And I received a cumulative total of exactly zero compensation.