Dr. Morbis

13 hours ago, scaryice said:

Gauntlet II does mention "adding other players" into the game in its manual. I don't think I'd call that a code, though. I see no problems with counting that.

As for Guerrilla War, I don't think it's ever come up because the game is so brain dead easy. I'm not treating that code any differently - it should be allowed too, since it's in the manual. Any manual code is fine. We also allow only playing the last 1/4th of Lemmings, which I believe Daniel Doyce did this year. The difference between those games and something like Ice Climber is a clear ending.

Our logic has always been that it's fine to get any ending, as long as you've beaten the whole game. And no "bad endings", which would rule out the easiest one in Bubble Bobble for instance. Burai Fighter doesn't say "BAD END", it says "An ace would see a graphic ending", which implies that the easy level is also an ending.

Part of the reason "the bar is low" is because in most years we don't even come close to 677. Requiring the best endings would mean we would do even worse. Now if I was one of the people trying to clear every game in the library, I would avoid taking some shortcuts just for my own state of mind. I wouldn't skip levels in Lemmings, for instance. But I don't think we need to be that tough on everyone.

But we do need some standards. As I said before, I'm not sure how we could logically allow continue codes but not other codes. If the games don't tell you about them anywhere, then what's separating a continue code from a 30 life code, or an invincibility code? I mean, there's a reason they're called cheat codes. You mentioned warp zones, but they're a built in part of the game that you can access without cheating. They might be cheap. There's a lot of gameplay tactics that are cheap - I know I was pause-buffering the other day in Chubby Cherub, for instance. But there's a difference between cheap and cheating.

I know you can argue that early games didn't bother with actual continue menus, but that quickly became the standard and most NES games are like that. Also, I think part of the charm for some of these games is the fact that you can't legitimately continue, and it's ridiculously hard as a result. I did beat Ikari Warriors before, and that was one of my greatest gaming moments. It's only really a small handful of titles that are hard enough to be affected, so I feel don't feel bad about making people do it the hard way.

Fair enough.  I understand where you're coming from, it's just that there are still some incongruancies that stand out a bit, especially after your above explanation.  For example, the early black box games that tell you in the manual how to select your level: why can't someone select the 100th stage of Wrecking Crew and beat the game?  You just explained in great depth above why "in the manual" is your canon, so what is the "by rule" reason for requiring the other 99 stages of Wrecking Crew to be played?  The same question goes for any other game in the library that tells you how to select your level in the manual.

As for bad endings, that's the sort of thing that should be spelled out in the pastebin file, I think, since those are not always obvious.  One example that comes to mind is Kid Kool, where the objective is to beat the game as quickly as possible to save the king's life.  If you take too long, you still get an ending, but the King is already dead, and I'm wondering how many people over the years have reported that they beat the game because they got to "the ending," not knowing or caring that they didn't actually beat the game because they failed to accomplish their objective: to save the King.  Another example is Rescue: The Embassy Mission where the pastebin just says to beat Mission Jupiter, but you actually get a bad ending on Jupiter for any result other than a no-death run.  And there are several other games in the library with anomalies like these.

Anyway, you've been doing an absolutely amazing job with this project for many years, and I am in no way trying to discredit that; I only make these posts and ask these questions because I care.  If it's your perogitave to disallow built-in continue codes, then that's the way it is; I guess we'll have to wait and see who among us is going to be willing to set aside the time and don the mantle and tackle Ikari Warriors for 2024.  (I can tell you who it won't be, though... )

14 hours ago, nerdynebraskan said:

 I also consider the level select on the title screen to be a primitive continue menu.

That's my point: there are different ways of allowing continues: sometimes it's on the game's menu with the word "continue" right in the option, but warp zones, to me, are a more "primitive" way for developers to let a player get back to where he was.  I don't think Miyamoto intended for SMB to be like a five level, five minute game for the rest of eternity once word got out about the in-game warp zones, but that's basically where we're at.

The game developers put the ABBA code in Ikari Warriors with intention, and that intention was specifically to allow continues; it wasn't an accident - they purposely programmed in a way for the player to be able to continue.  Same with SMB using A and start and Kung-Fu Heroes using A and start.  It was the '80's and they didn't have everything ironed out just yet.  Someone mentioned Dino Riki already, but another famous game that had its continue mode changed on localization was Ghosts 'N Goblins: in the Japanese version you have to put in a code on the title screen to continue, but they must've realized that putting in that code over and over again got really old really fast, so for the US release they just put the option right in the menu... clearly, they were learning as they went, and that doesn't make continuing in the Japanese version any less legitimate just because you have to enter a built-in code.

I guess my point in all of this is that I can't believe how incredibly low the bar is for almost all of the titles in this project, allowing "easy" modes, warps, single level plays (Spy vs Spy) etc, but then when it comes to using continue codes that are programmed into the game, that's like this hard line that cannot and shall not be crossed - unless it's in the manual.  In my last post, I was just pointing out some of the games that let you skip levels in the manual , but somehow the "must be in the manual" rule only applies to continue codes?  Why is that?  Why don't level skips count if they're in the manual?  It just seems so arbitrary to me, like people are going out of their way to rationalize a standard because that's the way it's always been done.  You can skip most of a game if you're using warp zones but you can't skip most of a game if it's by way of following the instructions on how to do it in the manual?

So it's apparently okay to do Burai Fighter on easy even though it gives you the worst ending, but playing through 100% of Ikari Warriors or Kung-Fu Heroes with continues and getting the best/only ending is totally unacceptable?!?  If this topic isn't open to further discussion anymore, that's totally fine, but that means one of you poor bastards is going to have to spend countless hours of your personal time trying to beat Ikari Warriors without continues every single year, all because whomever originally made the rules a decade ago erroneously thought that the game's developers did not intend for anyone playing their game to use the very continues that they built right into the code.

BTW @scaryice I noticed our Gauntlet II run is still on the board even though I told you we used continues.  I went and tried a solo game and it doesn't mention any way of continuing in one player mode either, so I'm wondering what exactly is the difference between Gauntlet II and Ikari Warriors?  Neither one mentions continues in the manual or the game and you have to press buttons after you die to continue in both of them, so what exactly is the distinction that makes one acceptable and the other one banned?  Either they should both allow continues or both not allow continues, unless I'm missing something...

I finished the tournament mode of Legends of the Diamond, although I took the picture a tad too early before the "No. 1" started flashing in the middle of the screen.  The game feels kind of like a poor man's Little League Baseball, but with really bad AI fielding where guys will run away from a ground ball to cover a random base when there's no one running to that base, and make terrible decisions about which bases to throw to when there are runners on base.  I thought it would be cool to play as Babe Ruth and Cy Yound and all those other guys, but it didn't really feel like all the "legends" where anything more than text written on the screen.  I won't be going back to this one any time soon.

I find it really counter-intuitive to the concept of "completing" a game that you guys are all so perfectly fine with skipping large portions of games and then calling them beaten.  It makes me wonder about all of the games that mention in the manual how to choose your level before starting: by the rules of this project, I've listed all of the one-level-completions that I can think of that you guys should be totally fine with:

-Gyromite- select final phase on the menu screen and complete it and you've "beat the game."
-Wrecking Crew- select final stage on the menu screen and complete it and you've "beat the game."
-Ice Climber- select final mountain on the menu screen and complete it and you've "beat the game."
-Guerilla War- select second last stage on the menu screen and complete the final two levels and you've "beat the game."

There are probably a bunch more that I can't think of, but is this how you guys are actually "beating" these games every year for this project - skipping the entire games just because it says how to do it in the manual???  If so, I guess I'm living in a different world than the rest of you NES players, but that's okay; as Kurt said in '91, "Oh well, whatever, nevermind..."

2 hours ago, scaryice said:

It is kind of dumb to just simulate the season. But the logic is, the game lets you do it.

That's the same reason I used continues in Kung-Fu Heroes: the game lets you do it   I guess it boils down to us having an entirely different perspective on the matter, as I would never simulate any portion of a sports game and call it beaten for my personal list, nor would I ever use warps in an action game for a legit clear either, while I have no problem at all using continues for games that have them built in and are programed to be very simple to use.  But hey, to each his own

I'm actually trying to kill two birds with one stone here by beating games that are both unbeaten here on the VGS list and games that are also unbeaten on my personal list, so now that I've beaten Kung-Fu Heroes to a level that's satisfactory for me personally, I'm pretty much done with it.  I could probably do a 1CC if I wanted to sink hours and hours more into practicing it, but I don't, so I'll step aside and let someone else kill themselves over trying to scale that ungodly pillar.  Much of this has to do with the fact that I would be doing an actual full run if I did 1CC it (so that it would actually count as a 1CC by my personal standards), which is even more difficult than what you require since I wouldn't be skipping most of the game like whomever does end up "completing" this game to the satisfaction of this project.  I find it incredibly backwards that you will count completions that skip over large portions of a game while discounting runs that play through an entire game but use continues.

Anyway, I have major empathy for whomever is willing to tackle this job in the future, and even more for the poor bastard who is willing to take on Ikari; continues can't be used on a 100% playthrough of Ikari Warriors but sports games can be 90%+ simulated to be legit? Damn...

27 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Edit: I also want to add that not allowing continues is silly to me, and should be an exemption from the cheat codes rule.  The goal is to beat the games, not to master them.  I don't feel like continuing violates the spirit of the games in any way, unlike codes for extra lives or level selects do.

This is pretty much how I feel for my own completions; like I would never spend 500 hours trying to master Ikari 1 just so I could say I did it without continues; I just beat the game with as many continues as I needed many years ago and moved on with my life.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess...

EDIT: actually, the more I think about it, warping in action games and simulating games in sports games violates the spirit of a completions project like this one far more than using a one button continue code does.  I mean, I played through all 32 levels of Kung-Fu Heroes and conquered every single one, but Tecmo NBA basketball, a game with a full season mode and best of seven playoffs, was literally 98% simmed other than a couple of single games played manually at the end!  Which of those two games was actually "completed" here in 2024?!?  But what do I know...

2 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Gauntlet 2 prompts you to continue, even playing it solo.  Iirc, so does Guerilla War.

Do they?  I don't think I've ever played either game solo in my life, so I wouldn't have ever seen a continue screen if they do.

8 minutes ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Kung Fu Heroes would be like ABBA in Ikari 1 and 2.

I don't think it's relatable to Kung-Fu Heroes at all since in Ikari you continue in game at the exact spot you game over'd just like Guerrilla War, whereas Kung-Fu Heroes goes back to the title screen where you have to hold A and press start.  Thinking about it now, Kung-Fu Heroes has the exact same continue mechanic as Super Mario Bros: hold A to continue on your current world.

But like I said, I'm cool with whatever the rules are here, as I played through Kung-Fu Heroes for my personal list first and foremost, it just never occured to me (or you either when we were playing the game on Saturday ) that continuing would be banned for this game here on vgs...

12 hours ago, nerdynebraskan said:

Kung Fu Heroes is especially rough, even though a tough-ass like @Dr. Morbis is going to be nonchalant about beating it. Even The Mexican Runner resorted to using the forbidden continue code for his completion of the game, which was disqualified here. Those 14 points were well earned.

Shit, is continuing in Kung-Fu Heroes actually not allowed here, because I used continues on my run.  I know codes aren't allowed for games, but does holding A when you press start on game over actually count as a code?  I don't use codes for my personal NES completions list, which was my reason for knocking this game out in the first place, and it didn't even occur to me to not count continues when it's just holding down A.

To me continuing in Kung-Fu Heroes is analagous to continuing in Guerrilla War, where you have to press and hold the buttons on game over to continue.  I checked the GW manual, and continuing is not mentioned in the manual, so is continuing in GW disqualifed here as well?  Likewise, Wiz and I used continues on Gauntlet II, even though they are not mentioned in the manual or on the title screen options: you just press A on a game over to continue, so if that counts as a code, then should our Gauntlet II run be disqualified as well?!?

Anyway, all of this is to say that: for full disclosure @scaryice, I used continues on my last two runs, Guantlet II and Kung-Fu Heroes, via methods not mentioned in their respective manuals or on the title screen options of either game, so feel free to reject either or both runs as you feel necessary.  I would ask, though, if either run is removed, for an explanation as to how they differ from continuing in games like Guerrilla War in terms of the no-code rules for this thread, just for the sake of clarity moving forward...

1 minute ago, PII said:

I gave this one a go a couple of years ago and got relatively close to the end using warps, but IIRC the last warp I intended to take just wasn't where it was supposed to be.  Either that or I didn't do something correctly, I have no idea really, but I ended up on tough level that did me in and haven't tried again since..

I make a point to complete games without warps, but even disregarding that, playing through the earlier levels in Kung-Fu Heroes gets you a bunch of items that are mandatory to be able to kill some enemies, so warps are probably your enemy in this game.  For example, you need the sword to be able to beat certain dudes on the final and toughest level of the game (8-4), so if you end up warping to the end without picking up the sword, you're shooting yourself in the foot, assuming it doesn't give you the items automatically when you warp (I've never warped in this game so I don't really know).  Plus, once you get decent, the whole game is a joke except for four levels: 7-4 and the 8-2, 8-3,  8-4 gauntlet, so I think it's better and easier to just play it warpless and get all the items while honing your skills...

1 hour ago, Khromak said:

Castlequest is done, I quite enjoy this game but I would have major anxiety if I didn't have a guide because I'd be petrified of soft locking myself by spending keys the wrong way. I'm not sure if that's possible, but I'm terrified all the same.

It's definitely possible to soft-lock yourself in various rooms, which I've done to myself in years past before finally resorting to a guide to beat the game like you did.

Anyway, I couldn't beat this game with @the_wizard_666 on Saturday after we spent all evening playing it, but the practice must've paid off, because I was able to knock off Kung Fu Heroes in less than an hour and a half today, and I'm really, really glad to be done with it foreva...

The debossed numbers are some sort of factory run code or some such designation and have nothing to do with the title itself.

As for the Rev-A, that signifies a console-wide revision in the cartridge design (to 3 screw) and also has nothing to do with the title itself.

If you want to find a Rambo with the revised code, check the back of every copy you come across until you find a debossed "A" designating the revised code to PRG1...

Just to add some info about Gauntlet II, in case you ever feel like updating the pastebin file, or in case anyone else here is wondering when to call this game for their own completion lists, Wiz and I played through to Level 111 before we quit and didn't notice any mazes repeating in the first 106, then from 107 to 111, we recognized all five levels as repeats in a row.  Also, not coincidentally, Aschultz has 117 mazes mapped out for it over on gamefaqs, of which eleven are secret bonus rooms, leaving 106 standard level mazes drawn out in total.

Taking this all in, my conclusion is thus: Gauntlet II throws the same first five levels at you in order every game no matter what, then from Level 6 to Level 106 gives you each new maze in random order until it has exhausted its stack, after which it begins repeating all the mazes you have already seen to that point starting with Level 107.  Ergo, Level 107 is the actual loop point that needs to be reached for "completing" Gauntlet II.

If the cartridge has not had it's back swapped out at any point in the last 30+ years, then the way to tell if a NES game has had a program revision is by looking for a debossed "A" or "B" on the back caution label, just beside the word "caution" itself.  Check your copy of Castlevania for a very common example, as 98% of all copies have been revised.  If there is no debossed letter on the back of the cartridge (assuming no back-swaps) then you've got a PRG0 inside...

EDIT: and REV-A indicates the switch from 5-screw to 3-screw carts, just to clarify that for you.

If we're going to discuss the games debate polls, then I'll air my grievance here:

@Reed Rothchild Is it possible to make the secondary "next game" poll optional, for those of us who don't know or care what the games are?  If not, can you add an "I don't care" or "surprise me!" option?  More often than not I find myself randomly selecting between two+ games I've never played - or sometimes even heard of, and so I'm forced to throw down a vote entirely at random in order for my actual vote in that week's poll to count.  If I've gotta keep making random selections in the next game polls I will, but I figured I would throw this out there...

On 2/3/2024 at 1:14 PM, RH said:

However, when I return to them, there’s almost no replay value.  For instance, I’ve started OoT (because it was the most enjoyable first play for a Zelda game I’ve) and I can play a while but I get tired of it at best by the time I get to the whale.  It’s not hard but I just lose interest.

My point is that all of these games that I’ve liked may be excellent but to me that have little to no real replay value.  I think I want to but then when I do try to start the game l, it’s just not fun.

I'm kind of starting to agree with this.  I started up OOT again a few years ago after not playing it in over a decade, and I also lost interest and gave up at the big whale dungeon.  And more recently, this last Christmas (a little over a month ago) I was all hyped up to finally sit down and replay LTTP due to it showing up at #1 on Reed's SNES list, but I just could not fight the boredom and ended up giving up in the middle of the first palace in the dark world: it just felt so much like tedious work doing the same thing over and over but with different colored background blocks in each dungeon.  And I'm a guy who got both of these games right at release and had absolutely magical experiences with them the first time through, and I hold them in the highest esteem whenever I'm thinking fondly of those warm fuzzy memories I have of playing those two games for the first time.  But as it stands right now, I can't even stomach the thought of having to play through either one of them ever again in my life, so you are definitely not alone!

Non-NES Zelda games = no replay value for me...

Gauntlet II has been completed through Level 100 by @the_wizard_666 and myself, so you can split the seven points with 4 for me and 3 for him, just so we don't have any dispicable half points in our tallies...

I've been working on AD&D: DragonStrike for the last couple of days, and tonight I finally got through it with the Gold dragon on Hard mode.  Anyone who thinks they're good at NES games needs to try Mission 13 of this game with the Gold dragon on Hard; it took me over four hours just to beat that one level, which was probably more time than I spent on the rest of the game combined.  The final level, Mission 14, only took about half an hour by comparison, and that's including the final boss going down on the first attempt.

And I've gotta say, I'm impressed: great graphics, music and play control, with fun and varied missions, it really is the total package, and playing an NES shooter with tank controls was also a first for me.  I could definitely see myself plowing through it on Easy with one of the other dragons down the road just for fun, but I don't think I'll ever go through Hard mode again in my life...

1 hour ago, DefaultGen said:

Motor City Patrol is done

All you need to do in this game is collect the 16 items on each map then wait out the timer, since this essentially resets your lives every day. Patrolling criminals is an extremely exhausting waste of time. You can't game over in a single day, even if every criminal escapes. This makes the game much faster to complete too since you don't have to keep bringing up the map.

This game shouldn't be a stick in the mud, it's a freebie. I beat it in 2 minute spurts over 3-4 hours while multitasking, the vast majority being dead time waiting for the timer to run out.

 

Thanks for the heads up.  Did you figure this out on your own or is it posted online somewhere?  I've never played this game before but I'm going to shortlist it for my personal list if it's that easy...

Its price rose above all other homebrews/after market NES games because it hasn't been dumped; the story ends there.

Man, I like Dan Campbell but the guy needs to learn how to just take the three points.

I guess for the SB, go Niners!  You're the last line of defense...

Yeah, Chiefs look totally beatable if the team that plays them in the SB doesn't utterly self destruct.  I've always hated how scrambling QB's like Jackson get put on a pedestal when they have no staying power and never win Championships - all flash and no substance; fun to watch but that's all...

3 hours ago, guitarzombie said:

Wow its not even Feb and almost 200 games left?  That seems pretty crazy to me.

Looks can be deceiving though; the last 100 are such a pain in the ass that it can be really difficult to convince people to want to even play them, so they always drag on for months.  But I've got a good feeling about 2024...

54 minutes ago, Gloves said:

It's three similar (at a glance) cats. They're very unique to each other in person. 

I assume their siblings from the same litter?

These songs are basically my childhood, so I'm clouded by nostalgia and probably ranked them a lot higher than a first time listener would...

19 hours ago, Link said:

 

Ya know... they say once something is on the internet, it's there forever. And lately more and more, I've been finding that's not true. Any time I want to find some shit I saw online 20 years ago, it's just nowhere to be found. The Wayback Machine is a noble effort, but often doesn't have what I'm looking for. And right now I'm looking for just such a thing. Anyway, 

[img] laptop the size of a briefcase, with two very long hinges dot jpeg [/img]

That's happened to me numerous times as well.  A lot of stuff from the '90's internet era is either gone or extremely difficult to track down a quarter of a century later...