Joshua Rogers

So I thought I would update on my side of things.

I have said before that: 1) I was mostly interested in everything EXCEPT for NTSC/USA games. 2) I would not be interested in letting users register and choose 'i have this', etc.

I have changed these opinions and now, and rather think a community-driven database which users are publicly acknowledged for their help is better. That is to say, users will be able to: register, and create 'local' databases (which they can do whatever they want to, it doesnt affect the global database.). They will also be able to 'create a new game' with the option to submit it to an admin (e.g. me), to be added globally. If I accept this new game, they will be given some points which will be displayed on a high score. They will also be able to submit changes to items, and if those changes are accepted they will be given credit for the information and get some points too.

This can be extended beyond the NES fairly easy but for the time being, the NES is the main focus to get everything working..Thus far, the functionality includes tracking:

boxes: code, languages on box, styrofoam block type('white_large_standard','white_small_standard','half_blue','cardboard','mini_monster','none','unknown'), hangtab box?, description, notes
manuals: code, languages in manual, description, notes
carts: code, cic, languages (languages available in the game?), bootgod id, screws, game speed, music speed, backplate code(not the punched number but rather like EAI, not sure how it works for ntsc games), backplate color(aka battery?),description, notes
inserts: name, code,languages, description,description, notes
developers: name, location, wikipedia link, gdri link,description, notes
publishers: name, location, wikipedia link,description, notes
master (this holds all the information about each /game/ (i.e. the 'idea' of the game, not physically)name, developers, tcrf link, vgmpf link, wikipedia link, short game descrption,notes.

the main page of each game will contain (which i call 'regionals'): everything from 'master', regional name, countries sold in, variant name, everything from 'boxes', everything from 'manuals', everything from 'carts', inserts, distributor name, everything from 'publishers', sleeve type('nintendo_smooth','nintendo_textured','nintendo_shiny','black_smooth','black_textured','none','unknown'), seal type ('matte_nintendo_sticker','gloss_nintendo_sticker','red_strip','red_nintendo_strip','white_nintendo_sticker','h_seam','vertical_overlap_seam','blister_pack','none','unknown'), UPC (funny that this actually changes a lot between regions), whether it has been 100% verified (e.g. sealed copy has been opened.), description, notes

the hierarchy of 'regionals'. e.g. if you search "A boy and his blob", it will appear like this:

[usa] a boy and his blob nes-b5-usa Nintendo
[gbr] a boy and his blob nes-b5-ukv Bandai UK
  | - - - - - [gbr] a boy and his blob (white sticker seal) nes-b5-ukv Bandai UK
[aus] a boy and his blob nes-b5-gbr Mattel pty ltd.
[....]..
where usa,gbr,aus are flags. Or for something with more variants like the Battletoads that I discussed before..
[AUS] Battletoads nes-8t-aus Mattel(distributor)
[AUS] Battletoads nes-8t-aus Metro Games
    | - - - - - [AUS] Battletoads (K-Mart / Metro Games Competition Sticker) nes-8t-aus Metro Games
    | - - - - - [AUS] Battletoads (Metro Games Sticker) nes-8t-aus Metro Games
[GBR] Battletoads nes-8t-ukv  Bandai UK
[ITA] Battletoads nes-8t-ita Leader S.r.l
[...]

Probably more information but the most important info for me is: country, code, distributor. At the bottom of each page will list all variants like this too, just like NA.
When you then go to each variants' page, it would list everything as said before, plus some 'credits' for users that helped. I may consider making pages just for individual items (cart, id, manual, insert, all devs/publishers/distributors i.e. talk a bit about them like a blog/wiki.) We of course will be using a shared system in that, from the list before, all the AUS battletoads will have the same page (they are the same id), since there is no difference between the carts used for AUS battletoads (Ok actually there is, the back of the Mattel version has an 07 stamp while the back of the metro games one has 08... but not sure if i want to get into that :/)




Do other people have anything that may want to add to this? Thoughts from other people? Happy birthday d34dc0d3.

On 5/24/2020 at 2:36 AM, LaytToTheParty said:

The "first version" should be determined by release date ofc. I think the type of variant should be noted as well (cart, artwork, 5 screw vs 3 screw). I'm not sure what we should do about the last part. My guess would be a "cart only" entry unless the variant had different CiB contents than the so-called first version, but I'm not quite sure about that. @Dr. Morbis Would be a good resource for this kind of thing.

"first version" may not be determined by release date if there is no indication of  release date. e.g. the Australian release of battletoads was distributed by Metro Games (and Mattel but that's another story.) 3 different versions exist. One with no sticker, one with  competition sticker, and one with a big Metro Games sticker. 1: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Battletoads-Complete-NES-Game-in-Box-Nintendo-PAL-Australia-/254509197399?hash=item3b41ee2857%3Ag%3AsgAAAOSwPqZeQgwi&nma=true&si=nPWFPbyh3crCFdTmVR08IBayDME%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 2: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BATTLETOADS-NES-BOXED-COMPLETE-WITH-BOOKLET-NINTENDO-NES-PAL-/124129362368?hash=item1ce6afc1c0%3Ag%3AcHAAAOSwZWpeevtS&nma=true&si=nPWFPbyh3crCFdTmVR08IBayDME%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 3:  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/battletoads-nes-game-aus-pal-A-nintendo-cib/143410782723?hash=item2163f2e203:g:apkAAOSwVR9do-c5 and all of these were 'released' at the same time, and the stickers were applied by the distributor. In this case it would be my decision to make the non-sticker version the 'first version', with the sticker versions the second/third (in this case I would make the big metro games sticker the second version because many other games had this sticker)

If there is an ambiguity as to what something could contain, maybe it's possible to have something like "A or B." So for e.g. nintendo power inserts it could say "PMG-AA-USA or PMG-BB-USA or PMG-CC-USA or..."  Same with sleeves. Then maybe have a little note somewhere which says why it could be any of them.

On 5/24/2020 at 8:36 PM, Dr. Morbis said:

Well that's quite the rabbit hole you're diving down. But for a game like Super Mario Bros. that was probably in print from the NES debut in 1985 until very near the end of the NES's run in the mid 90's, attaching particular cart styles to particular contents becomes overwhelming.

Then there is the issue of code revisions.  So take Castlevania, for example.

Since this whole thing is such a Clusterfuck, what Mike and I have done with the Sealed Contents List from the start is record 'instances' of a particular game coming with particular contents.  No one on earth is ever going to have every copy of every game ever released with every content that came with every print run, but having one full CIB from one print run of each title is what I'm personally shooting for, and that's where the Sealed Contents List comes in.

These are good points. SMB 1 had the same thing in PAL regions. It was originally released with 60hz, then was updated to 50hz but without a revision in cartridge code. However: if somebody has the ability to change a backplate, they have the ability to check the ROM (unless you mean someone is being malicious) I think '[VERY] minor variants' such as revisions of code without new cart codes can be put in a "notes" section" of a game, and not count towards a variant. I think that's where most people draw the line (of course there will be people that may say it is a variant and thus should have a new result..) So, instead of a new entry for a code revision variant, it is just stated in the notes of the game "this game underwent a revision of the code [..] link: tcrf, link: bootgod. You can check which version you have .." I don't really think that many games had code revisions either to be honest.. If there's not too many, perhaps "X or Y" could be listed under cart code. That way both versions are in the database and 'available', at least. Hmm.. Maybe 40 games had code revisions. One of (I think) 3 or 4 games that had a B revision comes to mind too.. https://tcrf.net/The_Untouchables_(NES)

Otherwise I agree with everything else you said. I don't think every instance needs to be recorded, just where there are fairly significant differences. After all, who cares whether a SMB was made in factory 1 vs. factory 2, if everything is the same?

On 5/24/2020 at 9:38 PM, Speedy_NES said:

One quick suggestion for addressing what release "set(s)" a specific item was a part of --> footnotes would be suitable. For example:

Krazy Kreatures box^1,2
Krazy Kreatures manual^1,2
Krazy Kreatures cut-corner cart¹
Krazy Kreatures square cart²

1Confirmed set
²Confirmed set
³Unconfirmed, likely set

This way each set could be separately confirmed or unconfirmed.

In my case I have "Confirmed to be complete", vs "Unverified completeness." This way we can show games that we haven't taken the time to investigate but they still show up and can be used or whatever (by default every game would be unverified i guess.)

8 hours ago, Divingninja said:

 

On nintendoage I had made a bunch of custom collection lists that basically broke down the types of variants one could collect from all cartridge variants, to another list that was just 3/5 screw, another that was just black box, another that was just seal variants etc, etc. I had started to try all manual variants and boxes, but with 5 kids ran out of time. Had always wanted to compile a variants database with pictures. Keep me updated with how this goes.

 

 

NA's database was cool because you could create your own variants names for games in your own little portal.. That would be nice to have again.

All of this is going to be quite difficult to do natively in ipb though..

49 minutes ago, Speedy_NES said:

Not to derail the thread too much into this discussion, but a few thoughts to add to the above;

10,000 sounds like a large number, but it's very feasible that there was a 10k production run without recall. The best way to benchmark production run is probably to look at similar items where we have an approximate indication of production numbers based on serial number. We can use the following list of rare NES games in collectors' hands, and compare SE vs. Myriad ownership:

http://archive.nes.science/nintendoage-forums/nintendoage.com/forum/messageviewac39.html?catid=5&threadid=50116

 

And to continue not derailing.. That 10k production minimum was definitely negotiable and not absolute (in many respects to many nes games.) And it wouldn't surprise me if that 10k minimum number was enacted around 1988/19899 when the NES was really at its peak in the US.

I know Wikipedia has it on some games, but composer feels like a weird field to add considering it's the only one that lists people (why not list other creators? but that's a rabbit hole that I don't know is necessary): link to vgmpf if the game exists on there.

 Should we add a field for cart datecodes / ROM markings? : no. link to tcrf instead.

... type of styrofoam block?: yes.

How do we feel about the drop downs?  let multiple be chosen, same as inserts.

We might run into trouble with older games that weren't specific with the texture of the dust cover. Any suggestions to handle this?: unknown, not important, ambiguous, etc. option

How should we handle variants of the same game?: you have to decide which is going to be the 'first version' of a game, then others are variants. co-variants may exist too. up to you how you want to display these; split them up between 'pieces'(cart,box,manual,etc) or by product. e.g. does a 5-screw game constitute a whole new entry for a CIB or does it constitute a 'cart only' entry.

also please don't use wikipedia for publisher/developer. as you can see here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Nintendo_Entertainment_System_games&action=history i've edited a whole ton of different nes games that had incorrect publishers/developers. some games are very ambiguous or unknown due to uncredited sub-developing (ocean comes to mind..)

otherwise looks good

4 hours ago, Goodvibes said:

A few games have this type of insert I have noticed. I know one of the Zelda prints for nes legend of Zelda did. If someone has one For nes let me know, I’d be very interested in buying it please.

I don't think a LoZ would have a Tradewest insert

44 minutes ago, LaytToTheParty said:

@0xDEAFC0DE So, in making the database @Gloves wants us to start with NES since that is the logical first step, and then we can branch out to other stuff. We should start with licensed games, unlicensed games, and their contents. Then we can get into cart variations and such, console variations (although there are only 2), peripherals, and whatever else we think should be added. NES can be a "beta test" so to speak, and then we can apply that format to other systems, hopefully branching out into stuff up to current gen. Then we can refine and potentially add Metacritic scores, user scores, user reviews,  a "games like this one" thing, and sorting. Once we decide on a format to how we want to lay out NES, everything else should fall in place, it's just a matter of getting volunteers to work on systems.

We already have CiB contents lists for NES, SNES, N64, and GB, and those are just the ones I can list off the top of my head. We can use consolevariations.com as a guide to limited edition consoles and hardware revisions, and I believe they do controllers and peripherals as well. There are so many resources out there, and all we have to do is compile those and make it easy to navigate, and this site should be the (almost) one-stop shop for collecting and gaming that NA was.

Things to note:
Some console boxes have 10+ variants. Even in one region (PAL-B Super Set comes to mind.)
How sure are you of those CIB contents? Are you sure which box variant goes with which? e.g. in the PAL-A region, there does not exist Wrestlemania Challenge NES-W9-AUS. The only version (known..) is NES-W9-AUS-1. Some manuals are coded the same but are widely different too. So what good does saying "nes-xx-zz box" goes with "nes-xx-zz cart" goes with "nes-xx-zz manual" if the codes of the products are inconsistent?

also to note: ends up the NES went to a lot more countries than we knew. i will write about this in ~4 weeks when my university exams are over. but due to this, we are fucked for a lot of pal-b.

israel region is easy, only 4 games released for it (this is confirmed, not by people finding only 4 games but rather i have confirmed only 4 games were translated / released as -ISR.) others not too hard too. differentiating pal-b regions is not fun though... german games not same as austrian, etc..

lol the rich editor doesn't work in my browser (freebsd, firefox 76.0.1), feel free to edit my posts so it actually looks normal

Tracking them isn’t impossible, it just requires a rethinking of the archival process.

Some PAL games include 2 manuals for different languages, some PAL games have different boxart within the region (Adventures in the Magic Kingdom) or different sizes (Black Boxes) or different names (Adventure Island Part II Two, Adventure Island in the Pacific), or different release statuses (Yapon Rentals), or different seal types (Plastic, Sticker, No Seal)

Everything listed here I respond with "so what? that sounds like it is important to make it a variant."
I don't want to go too much into detail how my database will work but.. If you have a line of data that contains some game, there is no reason that it can only be limited to 1 entry per column (i.e. manual). It is incredibly easy to make it so if there are multiple entries, it will show multiple entries.

It also requires you to consider Brazil, India, South Korea, Hong Kong, and Asia which are all really obscure Or relatively unexplored libraries (also add South Africa too now!)

Yup, and all of the other regions you didn't list too.

It also requires you to throw out overall rarity because games like Air Fortress, or Lethal Weapon are like Panic Restaurant and Power Blade 2 over here, and games like Stadium Events are like Swamp Thing, or Kid Klown over there.

Rarity guides are stupid.

Then you Need to realize that NES just isn’t the end all of gaming and you should factor in cross platform releases And ports which means you now need To consider ALL of gaming which requires its own rules as well.

Why? It's a database for NES games and maybe consoles / accessories.

 

 

Anyways, NA's database was good but had its problems. Problem #1 was that it did not list distributor; this is incredibly important when it comes to PAL regions. Problem #2 is that it did not differentiate between each type of box/cart/manual. e.g. a "NES-SM-GBR" box may have come with a "NES-SM-GBR-2" cart, but not the other way around. The solution: brute force with a little bit of ingenuity

I have my own 100% database in mind, however I suspect it's quite different.
Mine is a database of every single variant, across all regions. I guess only a couple people here on VGS know how annoying all the non-us regions are, but I've finally worked on a nice way to display all the data from all the regions in a nice format. Similar to how NA's database was, but NA's database did not account for variants or regions very well.. I don't remember exactly what WATA said (I know nearly nothing about what WATA is as i'm not an ntsc collector/follower..) but I think they said it would be impossible to track every single variant of every game: but why would it be impossible? sure some games have 100 different versions (SMB 1, for e.g.) but the rest only had a few production runs. It can be done, and it will be done! Maybe it's a bit harder to track the order in which certain variants were released but that's not what I intend on doing.

I also don't think I'll be making a user interface for it in the same way as yours (letting people use it as an app or whatever to mark off what they have / what they don't.)

I should also mention that I have little intention of putting much effort into the ntsc/usa side of my database

If you're making a "possible" list, this was included in oval seal / rev-a edition USA release of Double Dragon:

I don't have a photo of it without the coin/pen sorry..
for future reference (google.. myself..): NES-WD-US

The game you are talking about is called Power Play Football.. It says it right in the text

https://www.unseen64.net/2008/04/12/power-play-football-nes-unreleased/

Given that it was going to be published by HAL, it wouldn't be too wrong to assume it would be developed by Sculptured Software (did many HAL games, and did many other sport licensed games see https://tcrf.net/Category:Games_developed_by_Sculptured_Software), which has another unreleased NFL game on the SNES: https://tcrf.net/NFL_Football_(Sculptured_Software) https://snescentral.com/article.php?id=0852

Hi Dave,

Good to see you have started writing/researching again :).

This reminds me of 'off-brand famicomboxs' which I discovered years and years ago, and have misplaced ALL of my photos and links of. But here is one example: http://oroti.blog.jp/archives/68610556.html

I swear there are many more but i don't know what to search google for.

On 4/17/2020 at 7:19 AM, ThePhleo said:

 

Ive never seen anything for any other county, but besides those just randomly guessing. Maybe Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, and USSR...though they had Dendy/Pegasus 60-pin stuff so I doubt it.

Speaking of Pegasus, I live in Poland these days and never thought about the possibility of there being an official NES for Poland.

To be honest, nearly every country in Europe had the NES  somehow, even ex soviet/socalist countries. Check this out: https://segaretro.org/Beosoft Also if you go here https://segaretro.org/History_of_Sega_in_Romania and go to the bottom you can see Sega was in nearly every region as well.

The difference of course is whether Nintendo made a new 'region' for them. In the case of South Africa, they made a new region because the power plug is unique to South Africa:

So, now we can go find other countries with different power plugs and look for the NES

1 hour ago, ThePhleo said:

Well there it finally is!

Been waiting for years to see something like this

So we've got NTSC-USA/CAN, PAL-A, PAL-B, Hong Kong, Asia, Comboy, Famicom, Samurai, and South Africa which is just an extension of PAL-B just like Greece and Israel.

Edit: Also forgot about Brazil by Playtronic which, by the way I still don't know which lockout chip they use 100%, but I'm thinking its NTSC.

There are a few more PAL-B extensions that I'll be revealing, a couple which have never been brought up before.

Hi all,

Years after it was briefly discussed on Nintendoage, I decided to write everything about the South African NES region. Yes, the console and games were released in South Africa, officially! A -SAF console exists, and SAF games exist(sort of) too.

Here is my article about it: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/video-games-around-world-south-africa-joshua-rogers/

I know Linkedin is quite a strange platform to be posting this sort of stuff, but that is where I will be doing it for the time being. Feel free to follow.

If you're not interested in reading about the history of the NES there, here are some photos: