Tutor vs Client

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

It still all boils down to a market transaction of services.  You want to be paid a certain amount, the client wants to pay something less than that.

You negotiate and come to some kind of agreement, or you don't take the gig.

 

I still don't see the issue with the request for a resume, though.  It just doesn't seem like that big of a deal to offer up qualifications for why you are worth the money you want to get paid.

Generally speaking, if a prospective client is asking for some kind of verification of your background and suitability, and you refuse, you are not doing yourself any favors in the negotiation.

Employers ask for resumes.  It isn't offensive, and strikes me as completely normal.

When I offered private tutoring to high school and middle school kids, in college, the company offering the service needed my transcript to see that I was actually competent in the various subjects I was going to tutor. They could then assure the clients they were doing that due diligence and giving the kids access to knowledgeable tutors.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

4 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

When I offered private tutoring to high school and middle school kids, in college, the company offering the service needed my transcript to see that I was actually competent in the various subjects I was going to tutor. They could then assure the clients they were doing that due diligence and giving the kids access to knowledgeable tutors.

The key words here are "the company". 

If a company were asking me for a resume, there would be no issue at all, but if a parent were asking for a resume, tons of extras, and were also offering to pay less than the standard base going rate, it's offensive.

[Gloves | 11,777]

Just now, fcgamer said:

The key words here are "the company". 

If a company were asking me for a resume, there would be no issue at all, but if a parent were asking for a resume, tons of extras, and were also offering to pay less than the standard base going rate, it's offensive.

Just say no and move on? 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

4 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

It still all boils down to a market transaction of services.  You want to be paid a certain amount, the client wants to pay something less than that.

You negotiate and come to some kind of agreement, or you don't take the gig.

While I agree with the sentiment listed above, in my opinion it should still be the tutor that lists the initial price though, and the potential client can take it, leave it, or negotiate it.

 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 minute ago, Gloves said:

Just say no and move on? 

Sure, I wasn't particularly interested in the gig and I didn't need it, nor was I looking for more hours, but that isn't the point.

 

[Gloves | 11,777]

4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Sure, I wasn't particularly interested in the gig and I didn't need it, nor was I looking for more hours, but that isn't the point.

 

What's the point? 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 minute ago, Gloves said:

What's the point? 

You should know by now that I'm a guy that does stuff based on principle.

The point is that in most fields of this nature, the provider of the service sets the rates, be it from baking classes to guitar lessons. Hell, even with Chinese language classes, where (over here) a majority of the residents could (in theory) offer lessons, initial prices are set by the teacher.

Only for ESL lessons is it a situation where the potential students are attempting to set the price. 

[Gloves | 11,777]

1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

You should know by now that I'm a guy that does stuff based on principle.

The point is that in most fields of this nature, the provider of the service sets the rates, be it from baking classes to guitar lessons. Hell, even with Chinese language classes, where (over here) a majority of the residents could (in theory) offer lessons, initial prices are set by the teacher.

Only for ESL lessons is it a situation where the potential students are attempting to set the price. 

Yeah but like, does it ever work? Do your competitors allow it? 

I do freelance web development and if someone doesn't accept my provided rates, I drop them immediately, no further conversation. 

I do so out of not only principle, but also prudence - low balling clients are the most demanding, and literally never worth my time. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

4 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Yeah but like, does it ever work? Do your competitors allow it? 

I do freelance web development and if someone doesn't accept my provided rates, I drop them immediately, no further conversation. 

I do so out of not only principle, but also prudence - low balling clients are the most demanding, and literally never worth my time. 

Sadly it does work, yes, and that was also one of my points.

[Gloves | 11,777]

Just now, fcgamer said:

Sadly it does work, yes, and that was also one of my points.

Then take solace in that your competitors have lowered their value on the market and you're open to selling yourself as a premium offering by comparison. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

4 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Then take solace in that your competitors have lowered their value on the market and you're open to selling yourself as a premium offering by comparison. 

It's not as simple as this though. Most often these competitors are desperate for a position, either due to being a bad teacher, being incompetent in the language  (I studied Spanish for about two or three years, for example, can read it somewhat and could probably fake it if teaching a first time learner, yet you wouldn't want your kid learning Spanish from me), or (I hate to say this) due to skin colour / race. 

Over here, parents talk, and parents love to compare. In fact, you'd think the two national pastimes would be comparing, and nabbing bargains.

So I think it most definitely is important to actively take steps to maintain the value of the service.

[Gloves | 11,777]

4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

It's not as simple as this though. Most often these competitors are desperate for a position, either due to being a bad teacher, being incompetent in the language  (I studied Spanish for about two or three years, for example, can read it somewhat and could probably fake it if teaching a first time learner, yet you wouldn't want your kid learning Spanish from me), or (I hate to say this) due to skin colour / race. 

Over here, parents talk, and parents love to compare. In fact, you'd think the two national pastimes would be comparing, and nabbing bargains.

So I think it most definitely is important to actively take steps to maintain the value of the service.

By your claim, the competition is generally of low quality. We're talking about value for money, get what you pay for. 

Let them try the alternative, find that it is poor, and regret not paying for quality. That's how markets work, its basic economics. It IS that simple. 

I don't get your last paragraph. How do you mean, "maintain the value of the service"? I never argued that you shouldn't maintain value, I'm saying exactly that - you set the prices, if they don't like it, they can go elsewhere. It's about how you market yourself. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

4 minutes ago, Gloves said:

By your claim, the competition is generally of low quality. We're talking about value for money, get what you pay for. 

Let them try the alternative, find that it is poor, and regret not paying for quality. That's how markets work, its basic economics. It IS that simple. 

I don't get your last paragraph. How do you mean, "maintain the value of the service"? I never argued that you shouldn't maintain value, I'm saying exactly that - you set the prices, if they don't like it, they can go elsewhere. It's about how you market yourself. 

As much as I hate to say it, I think @Code Monkeygets it a bit. It's a totally different way of thinking over here, which even sounds weird when trying to describe it here.

Yes, the competition taking these sorts of posts is either low quality, new and naieve, or has been shut out from other posts due to blatant racism.

But Taiwanense don't think in the same way as you or I, I think it partially stems from still being recently dirt poor in the collective memory. 

As such, there's this attitude of wanting quality whilst also paying peanuts, in fact it reminds me of fifteen years ago when my German friend visited me and we went to a college dive near mine. He told the bartender that he wanted something that was both good, and cheap, yet he ended up with a pitcher of Natty Ice, after the bar tender told him he could have one or the other. Though in our discussion, these folks are trying demand both, even going as far as attempting to set the price to reel someone in.

 

 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

I still think it is a bit of an odd position to take to be upset about a client openly stating a starting point of what they are willing to pay for a service.

They aren't forcing anyone to take the role. And if nobody takes it, the price they are offering goes up, or they don't get the service.  Simple as that.

There is nothing offensive about it.

Edited September 25, 2021 by arch_8ngel

[Gloves | 11,777]

2 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

I still think it is a bit of an odd position to take to be upset about a client openly stating a starting point of what they are willing to pay for a service.

They aren't forcing anyone to take the role. And if nobody takes it, the price they are offering goes up, or they don't get the service.  Simple as that.

There is nothing offensive about it.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said:

I still think it is a bit of an odd position to take to be upset about a client openly stating a starting point of what they are willing to pay for a service.

They aren't forcing anyone to take the role. And if nobody takes it, the price they are offering goes up, or they don't get the service.  Simple as that.

There is nothing offensive about it.

It lowers the value of the service, therein lies the problem.

As discussed earlier, someone will indeed take the job, though it will be a person that does not hold nearly as many credentials, someone who is new, is naieve, etc.

Parent tells friends / others of the matter, even posts online that the position has been filled. Other parents get the (wrong) idea that this is the going rate, etc etc. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

People here love comparing apples to oranges in an attempt to get a deal, unfortunately.

[GPX | 1,369]

7 hours ago, fcgamer said:

To put it another way:

"Hi, I'm looking for someone to make me a Nintendo game. I want it to have XYZ features. I want it on a cartridge.

Please show me references and a resume of your work. Please also show me how many expositions your company has attended.

I'm willing to pay you $1000 to make the game. Thanks!"

Guy B: "I got another gig that's giving me waaaaay more money, but yeah , sure, sounds good , I'd totally take your offer if I weren't so busy. Too bad my other jobs pay more, lol"

Yeah, it's a bad look.

All the above example tells me is that some guy posting an add for a service and what kind of criteria of credentials he’s after and at what price he’s willing to pay. It’s no different to a “want to buy” add on any forum.

I agree that in Asian culture, there is more a tendency to barter and lowball, but that is a given human right. Just as much the right the tutor can barter further, agree, or reject and move on.

I think the offense that you’re specifically mentioning is that tutoring prices over there aren’t going up, am I right? If so, that is a big fundamental flaw of business - assuming every thing will go up in price, or assuming a business (in your case, a solo business) can set rising prices, and someone out there will gladly accept it. 

To extend further my point, during this pandemic, I’m seeing plenty of restaurants either going out of business or reducing their work hours or reducing their staff. I’m also seeing health professionals reducing work hours due to fatigue or reduce patient contact (physios, dentists, family doctors, psychologists etc). 

[Code Monkey | 2,008]

5 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

I still think it is a bit of an odd position to take to be upset about a client openly stating a starting point of what they are willing to pay for a service.

They aren't forcing anyone to take the role. And if nobody takes it, the price they are offering goes up, or they don't get the service.  Simple as that.

There is nothing offensive about it.

Unfortunately sometimes this negotiation will happen after the service has been rendered. I've been on the receiving end of this before where I give the client a price for the job, the job is done to their full satisfaction but they refuse to pay the full price because they feel it didn't take you as long as expected to do it.

[Gloves | 11,777]

1 minute ago, Code Monkey said:

Unfortunately sometimes this negotiation will happen after the service has been rendered. I've been on the receiving end of this before where I give the client a price for the job, the job is done to their full satisfaction but they refuse to pay the full price because they feel it didn't take you as long as expected to do it.

Contracts, contracts, contracts.

[Code Monkey | 2,008]

Just now, Gloves said:

Contracts, contracts, contracts.

Written agreement through email, these people don't care.

[Gloves | 11,777]

Just now, Code Monkey said:

Written agreement through email, these people don't care.

Small claims court.

[GPX | 1,369]

4 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Unfortunately sometimes this negotiation will happen after the service has been rendered. I've been on the receiving end of this before where I give the client a price for the job, the job is done to their full satisfaction but they refuse to pay the full price because they feel it didn't take you as long as expected to do it.

You’re arguing a different issue though. That’s more an issue of dealing with tight A holes that don’t honor an agreement.

Edited September 25, 2021 by GPX

[fcgamer | 4,723]

7 minutes ago, GPX said:

All the above example tells me is that some guy posting an add for a service and what kind of criteria of credentials he’s after and at what price he’s willing to pay. It’s no different to a “want to buy” add on any forum.

I agree that in Asian culture, there is more a tendency to barter and lowball, but that is a given human right. Just as much the right the tutor can barter further, agree, or reject and move on.

I think the offense that you’re specifically mentioning is that tutoring prices over there aren’t going up, am I right? If so, that is a big fundamental flaw of business - assuming every thing will go up in price, or assuming a business (in your case, a solo business) can set rising prices, and someone out there will gladly accept it. 

To extend further my point, during this pandemic, I’m seeing plenty of restaurants either going out of business or reducing their work hours or reducing their staff. I’m also seeing health professionals reducing work hours due to fatigue or reduce patient contact (physios, dentists, family doctors, psychologists etc). 

Nah, my complaint is that tutors should be the ones setting the price.

Tell me the last time you saw a person post, "I want to take guitar lessons, willing to pay $15 an hour". Despite that being a fair price imo, for an average lesson by an average Joe, this sort of post we'll rarely see.

We will see tutors to trying to contact clients, "Offering guitar lessons, please contact XYZ at 555-xxxx" though, or even "Hi, I'm looking for guitar lessons".

The only place I have ever seen the client trying to set the price for the tutor is here in Taiwan, period. It may be a cultural thing, but I personally feel it's tacky AF.

As I said earlier:

"I'm looking for someone to make me a homebrew NES game. I'm looking to pay $7.50 an hour."

Yes, programmers won't take the offer and will just carry on, but it's still insulting.

[GPX | 1,369]

3 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Nah, my complaint is that tutors should be the ones setting the price.

Tell me the last time you saw a person post, "I want to take guitar lessons, willing to pay $15 an hour". Despite that being a fair price imo, for an average lesson by an average Joe, this sort of post we'll rarely see.

We will see tutors to trying to contact clients, "Offering guitar lessons, please contact XYZ at 555-xxxx" though, or even "Hi, I'm looking for guitar lessons".

The only place I have ever seen the client trying to set the price for the tutor is here in Taiwan, period. It may be a cultural thing, but I personally feel it's tacky AF.

As I said earlier:

"I'm looking for someone to make me a homebrew NES game. I'm looking to pay $7.50 an hour."

Yes, programmers won't take the offer and will just carry on, but it's still insulting.

It perhaps may be insulting relative to the norm or the going rate. To me, it’d be similar to an outrageous BIN price on eBay (eg. $10,000 for a platinum PS1 sealed PAL game) - I laugh at it, vowing never to click on anything that seller has to sell again, and I move on. I don’t think of it as insulting, nor have I put further thoughts in those outrageous price setting.

Also, I see clients can have the right to set their targets just as much as tutors can set theirs.