Sword of the Necromancer - Kickstarter

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Turn your foes into allies in this Dungeon Crawler Action RPG with Rogue-like elements

Their goal was $16,000 and they have raised over $100k. Eight days left in the kickstarter. Collector's edition looks quite nice.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jandusoft/sword-of-the-necromancer/description

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by avatar!

[Ausden | 323]

Looks great! 

[avatar! | 1,811]

So I looked a bit into this game... I don't know. Here are a few things I learned

1)When you die, you lose HALF your level! Level 10 -> level 5

2)You also lose ALL your equipped items - ALL of them...

Does this sound fun? I really want another game in the vein of say Rogue Legacy, but this sounds frustrating, and not in a it's a real challenge such as Dark Souls, more in a gritty sort of way where you have to level up again and again because you will die and lose HALF your levle

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

28 minutes ago, avatar! said:

So I looked a bit into this game... I don't know. Here are a few things I learned

1)When you die, you lose HALF your level! Level 10 -> level 5

2)You also lose ALL your equipped items - ALL of them...

Does this sound fun? I really want another game in the vein of say Rogue Legacy, but this sounds frustrating, and not in a it's a real challenge such as Dark Souls, more in a gritty sort of way where you have to level up again and again because you will die and lose HALF your levle

Do you not play Roguelikes?

When you die in a real Roguelike, you typically lose EVERYTHING...

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2 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

Do you not play Roguelikes?

When you die in a real Roguelike, you typically lose EVERYTHING...

What would you consider Rogue Legacy? When you died you lost a percentage of your gold, but were able to make permanent upgrades and thus there was always progress. Here, if you lose half your levels and your items, it seems more frustrating. 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

17 minutes ago, avatar! said:

What would you consider Rogue Legacy? When you died you lost a percentage of your gold, but were able to make permanent upgrades and thus there was always progress. Here, if you lose half your levels and your items, it seems more frustrating. 

With true Roguelikes, the only "permanent" upgrades are to your own skills and knowledge as a player.

They don't have anything persistent, other than maybe unlocked content being accessible in-game (though still needing to be acquired in a new game by the player)

 

They are a genre that isn't about cumulative progress.

It is about having a playthrough that threads the needle of a favorable RNG coupled with your cumulative experience helping you better manage risk.

 

 

EDIT:  I haven't played Rogue Legacy, but the description is "platformer with roguelike ELEMENTS".

Typically, that just means shorter coffee-break play sessions with procedurally generated content.

That is quite a bit different than BEING a "Roguelike" (i.e. permadeath is a staple of the core genre)

 

 

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by arch_8ngel

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2 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

With true Roguelikes, the only "permanent" upgrades are to your own skills and knowledge as a player.

They don't have anything persistent, other than maybe unlocked content being accessible in-game (though still needing to be acquired in a new game by the player)

 

They are a genre that isn't about cumulative progress.

It is about having a playthrough that threads the needle of a favorable RNG coupled with your cumulative experience helping you better manage risk.

Yeah, that's why I don't like true rouge games. I read there's various debates on rougue-like and rougue-lite etc etc.

Personally, I just don't have fun if there's no progress. Challenge is one thing, having to do the same thing over and over, relying just on RNG and memorization (arguably "skill", arguably) not for me. Which is why I'm questioning whether I will enjoy this game, although it's clearly not hardcore rogue. 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

8 minutes ago, avatar! said:

Yeah, that's why I don't like true rouge games. I read there's various debates on rougue-like and rougue-lite etc etc.

Personally, I just don't have fun if there's no progress. Challenge is one thing, having to do the same thing over and over, relying just on RNG and memorization (arguably "skill", arguably) not for me. Which is why I'm questioning whether I will enjoy this game, although it's clearly not hardcore rogue. 

If it doesn't have permadeath it could be considered rogue-LITE at best.

There is no "memorization" to speak of... that is the point of a rogue-like -- every playthrough is different.

And once you've learned the mechanics of the game, it is about devising strategy and managing resources and tactics so that you can hedge against an unfavorable RNG.

*though something like Darkest Dungeon walks a fine line of giving individual characters permadeath within your larger growing town*

 

 

 

Games like DoomRL and ADOM, rogue-like-to-the-core, can be beaten on hardest settings with essentially no blessing from the RNG... IF YOU ARE GOOD.

They just aren't particularly forgiving if you do something careless.

But when the RNG DOES favor you... you get that little tickle of gambler's high

They are a really satisfying genre when you manage to learn the games well enough to win once in awhile.

But VERY similar to Tetris -- you need to go in expect to lose, a lot.

Edited April 29, 2020 by arch_8ngel

[Reed Rothchild | 9,523]

Seems confusing to name it so similar to Crypt of the Necromancer.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

1 minute ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Seems confusing to name it so similar to Crypt of the Necromancer.

Crypt of the NecroDANCER...

(which is another fun example of a permadeath-based Roguelike with layers actual reflex practice/skill on top of learning how the tactical situations work in-game)

Edited April 29, 2020 by arch_8ngel

[Reed Rothchild | 9,523]

3 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

Crypt of the NecroDANCER...

(which is another fun example of a permadeath-based Roguelike with layers actual reflex practice/skill on top of learning how the tactical situations work in-game)

That's what that nagging feeling in my brain was...

[CMR | 519]

I tend to avoid anything that has "rogue-like" in the description.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

35 minutes ago, CMR said:

I tend to avoid anything that has "rogue-like" in the description.

DoomRL is one of the best games of the last 20 years.

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22 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

If it doesn't have permadeath it could be considered rogue-LITE at best.

There is no "memorization" to speak of... that is the point of a rogue-like -- every playthrough is different.

And once you've learned the mechanics of the game, it is about devising strategy and managing resources and tactics so that you can hedge against an unfavorable RNG.

*though something like Darkest Dungeon walks a fine line of giving individual characters permadeath within your larger growing town*

 

 

 

Games like DoomRL and ADOM, rogue-like-to-the-core, can be beaten on hardest settings with essentially no blessing from the RNG... IF YOU ARE GOOD.

They just aren't particularly forgiving if you do something careless.

But when the RNG DOES favor you... you get that little tickle of gambler's high

They are a really satisfying genre when you manage to learn the games well enough to win once in awhile.

But VERY similar to Tetris -- you need to go in expect to lose, a lot.

It comes down to personal taste of course, I'm just not a fan of permadeath, for the most part. It's interesting that you mentioned Darkest Dungeon. I never considered that Rogue or Rogue-like. Although you could permanently lose characters, you could easily upgrade other characters that were very similar, and you never actually lost much if any progress. So that's the thing, I don't know if in this case you just have to backtrack a lot and remake lost grounds or not? I realize that every playthrough will be different, but to me it comes down to again whether you're making permanent progress - able to upgrade "things" that remain upgraded forever. In Darkest Dungeon you could upgrade the town and it always felt like you were working towards the ultimate goal of finishing the eponymous title. I really did NOT enjoy Enter the Gungeon. I really DID love Rogue Legacy and Darkest Dungeon. 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

53 minutes ago, avatar! said:

It comes down to personal taste of course, I'm just not a fan of permadeath, for the most part. It's interesting that you mentioned Darkest Dungeon. I never considered that Rogue or Rogue-like. Although you could permanently lose characters, you could easily upgrade other characters that were very similar, and you never actually lost much if any progress. So that's the thing, I don't know if in this case you just have to backtrack a lot and remake lost grounds or not? I realize that every playthrough will be different, but to me it comes down to again whether you're making permanent progress - able to upgrade "things" that remain upgraded forever. In Darkest Dungeon you could upgrade the town and it always felt like you were working towards the ultimate goal of finishing the eponymous title. I really did NOT enjoy Enter the Gungeon. I really DID love Rogue Legacy and Darkest Dungeon. 

If you have a party-wipe in Darkest Dungeon you could lose quite a bit of investment/gear.  And even losing individual upgraded characters can be frustrating (though not the "full permadeath treatment" of a more traditional roguelike).

 

 

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3 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

If you have a party-wipe in Darkest Dungeon you could lose quite a bit of investment/gear.  And even losing individual upgraded characters can be frustrating (though not the "full permadeath treatment" of a more traditional roguelike).

Actually you can get your trinkets back from the Shrieker if you have a full party wipe. 

Also, more importantly you never lose the work you put into the town. 

I think the way Darkest Dungeon handled everything was nearly perfect. I'm on the fence about this game. I think Sword of the Necromancer might be too much like Guneon and not enough like Rogue Legacy, but I haven't made up my mind quite yet. 

 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

5 minutes ago, avatar! said:

Actually you can get your trinkets back from the Shrieker if you have a full party wipe. 

Also, more importantly you never lose the work you put into the town. 

I think the way Darkest Dungeon handled everything was nearly perfect. I'm on the fence about this game. I think Sword of the Necromancer might be too much like Guneon and not enough like Rogue Legacy, but I haven't made up my mind quite yet. 

 

Give something like ADOM or DoomRL a try to see how some "true" Roguelikes have evolved over the last 20 years.  BOth of those have had significant updates in that time while retaining the core concepts.

And you can get a handful of playthroughs on them to get a sense of how you feel about their permadeath, versus the overall play experience.

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3 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

Give something like ADOM or DoomRL a try to see how some "true" Roguelikes have evolved over the last 20 years.  BOth of those have had significant updates in that time while retaining the core concepts.

And you can get a handful of playthroughs on them to get a sense of how you feel about their permadeath, versus the overall play experience.

ADOM does look cool. Although, let me ask, is there also permanent upgrades etc? Or is it back to scratch when you die? 

Back to scratch is too hardcore for me. Heck even Super Mario Bros. had half-way points and levels so you never started back at the very beginning - well, unless you lost ALL your lives! 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

2 minutes ago, avatar! said:

ADOM does look cool. Although, let me ask, is there also permanent upgrades etc? Or is it back to scratch when you die? 

Back to scratch is too hardcore for me. Heck even Super Mario Bros. had half-way points and levels so you never started back at the very beginning - well, unless you lost ALL your lives! 

ADOM is all or nothing.  (though you can save-scum if you are into that sort of thing -- you just have to do it manually)

But it is satisfying to learn your way through the game if you don't spoil it too early with FAQs

 

It is one of the more elaborate-but-still-playable Roguelikes out there.  Some get too complicated for their own good, but ADOM strikes a pretty good balance while still be quite deep.

 

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44 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

ADOM is all or nothing.  (though you can save-scum if you are into that sort of thing -- you just have to do it manually)

But it is satisfying to learn your way through the game if you don't spoil it too early with FAQs

 

It is one of the more elaborate-but-still-playable Roguelikes out there.  Some get too complicated for their own good, but ADOM strikes a pretty good balance while still be quite deep.

 

The all or nothing is too hardcore for me. I wouldn't have the patience for it. Darkest Dungeon I played for hours and loved it, even if I lost some people along the way. But, DD is far from all or nothing. 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

10 minutes ago, avatar! said:

The all or nothing is too hardcore for me. I wouldn't have the patience for it. Darkest Dungeon I played for hours and loved it, even if I lost some people along the way. But, DD is far from all or nothing. 

It exercises your patience... it builds character!

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2 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

It exercises your patience... it builds character!

 

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

59 minutes ago, avatar! said:

 

Well, you're missing out if you skip ADOM, IMO.  And that is one that is still pretty interesting and challenging, even if you save-scum. 

 

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3 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

Well, you're missing out if you skip ADOM, IMO.  And that is one that is still pretty interesting and challenging, even if you save-scum. 

I'm sure there are lots of interesting and challenging games I'm missing out on, and ADOM will just be one of them