Silent Hill

I mentioned legal because that would help the definition of systemic. Of course racism is an issue, it always will be. But any example of "subtle" systemic racism is really just an individual's racist act and they're most likely doing something illegal (laws against discrimination in every major facet of life). Like, an entire bank branch staff isn't "subtly" not loaning black people money, or else they'd be outed and prosecuted (as they should). If you think that stuff like this is just happening without anyone noticing/recording proof or taking action, then I don't know how to approach that. Do we audit all banks to find trends/proof or do we just claim systemic racism in banks because of the disparity in loans? For police, let's look at all interactions between white police officers and black citizens in a given time period. What percentage would you say are wrongfully arrested/charged, brutalized or killed - based on their skin color? What percentage would that need to be in order to transcend from individual's actions to systemic racism/oppression?

I don't see how that works. Racism exists today, and it always will. Systemic racism does not exist today, (it legitimately did before) or at least not in a fashion that anyone can properly define as to take action against it. And not in a fashion that makes it the sole culprit for all disparities between black people and all other races within America.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you implying that systemic racism and oppression is only applied those who have ancestors that were enslaved (in America specifically)? Do you think that a black person's family heritage is taken into consideration when the "system" oppresses them? Surely a black person who is an American citizen, but came from a different culture, would be equally oppressed by systemic racism because their skin color is the same, right?

Yes, and oppressing others. Again, you're looking for the blatant acts and missing the subtle ones. When the Civil Rights Act was passed, the systemic acts didn't end. Racists started making them more subtle. And a lot of America went right along with it. Unwittingly, and it's understandable why they weren't able to see it, but that doesn't mean we can't do something about it. Can you give me an example of a subtle, unnoticed act of racism that impacts a minority's future and/or well-being? (a legal act would be preferred) How many of these racists from the Civil Rights era are still pulling the strings today? Did they just pass along their racism playbook to their kin, or was it left as part of their organization's policy? You educate yourself on what it actually is. Like I said, there are resources out there. You just need to start looking. I mean, I can cite examples, but examples aren't the only thing. There's a whole wealth of knowledge out there. We just tend to ignore it. I understand the definition(s) bounced around as and I've looked at resources for both viewpoints. I watch/read one thing and can easily find something that directly counters every point made, so I try and go with the most logical resources, especially those that use statistical analysis. Your insistence that it has to have a concrete, readily identifiable issue certainly doesn't help. I don't think you're racist, no, but I think you are missing the point. I mean, do I desire a definitive definition? Sure, it would make getting rid of it SO much easier. But I know it isn't neat and clean, and that's why it continues to exist. I feel like I get the point, but I struggle to get on board with something when there isn't a clear plan to the end-goal. The "solutions" are all over the board from defunding/abolishing the police to reparations, to holding city property hostage. I can't say I'm really behind any of those solutions. Give me an action and outcome that makes logical sense to fight systemic racism, and I'm willing to get on board. Are you sure? I mean, I'm not always sure, but I try to look at what I'm doing, and make efforts to learn. It's more than just not using the n-word, you know. Individually? No, I don't think you are. Systemic racism is far more insidious. BTW, no one is expecting it to disappear overnight, or having a magic bullet. Defeating systemic racism is HARD. It's uncomfortable. It requires taking a real, honest look at ourselves. And it's worth the effort. I've done nothing in my life that has stunted or negated the progress of another person because of their skin color, and I'm sure a lot of Americans are in the same boat. Hypothetically, let's say everyone is in favor of this movement. What action can be taken that will be the turning point? Will defunding/abolishing the police resolve systemic racism within the police force, or could it potentially amplify the chance of unlawful acts by cutting training and payroll funds thus creating a lower standard for recruitment? Not to mention the animosity against police right now. I'm sure their enrollment rates will drop because of this. What can we address that will close the other gaps in outcomes? (income, wealth, housing, crime, etc.). I mean there HAS to be something tangible to address in each of these buckets that is systemically oppressing black people, right? If you can't define that, then what are we doing? It's a pipe dream. An unobtainable utopia of equal outcomes for all.

In a world where every race had the same culture and made the same decisions, sure. But clearly that’s not the case. Unequal outcomes doesn’t (by default) equate to unequal opportunity, especially unequal opportunity based on skin color. Why don’t other minority groups have the same disparities? Why are there disparities within each race itself (black Americans vs black immigrants). Surely if it was systemic, black immigrants would be oppressed in the same ways, yet there are many disparities between them and black Americans. (Crime, income, family structure, education, etc). It’s more about culture/family structure and individual decisions than systemic racism/oppression.

Of course it's a problem, and that's the point. That's what minorities have been screaming about for decades if not centuries. They try to enlighten the majority, and the majority tells them, "That doesn't fit my definition of racism." Sorry, it doesn't have the Scarface "I exist so you can point at me and say, 'that's the bad guy.'" Most people who engage in it don't think of themselves as the bad guy. And minorities don't want to call them the bad guy, but they still get shafted by the majority's behavior, and it's hit the point and past the point where they can't take it anymore. It doesn't have to be intentional. There's no racist cabal pushing buttons and screwing over minorities. It's deep in society. We often unintentionally engage in it without even knowing. But when we're made aware of it, we should do something. Heck, we should make the effort to educate ourselves on what it is. There's plenty of resources out there. But if you insist on a clean, neat defintion, I don't know what to tell you. Other than I can see why it continues to exist Prior to the Civil Rights movement, I can obviously understand why minorities were “screaming” because systemic racism actually existed. Like I said earlier, in 2020, it’s a wild goose chase. There are equal rights and opportunities for everyone, at a legal level. The majority of America is not racist, and we’re quick to call out blatant racism, at least at a national level. (You see people like Michael Richards, Rosanne, Paula Dean, etc. get destroyed for making racist remarks). So even though it’s 100% unacceptable behavior morally (and I’m sure a vast majority, if not all of us here were taught it was wrong growing up) there’s still this widespread, yet hidden, rampant racism within the population and systems of America, that’s still oppressing black people today? How do you even address something that you can’t pinpoint? Just remind everyone not to be racist? That’s why the fluidity is dangerous, it can be molded to be a culprit of just about any unequal outcome And I hope you’re not implying that my desire for a definitive definition/example perpetuates the issue. How am I enabling racism (systemic or individual) when I’ve taken no racist action in my life?

I'll finish going through all charts later but so far there's no context to the numbers. Just raw data, and yes, it doesn't appear to be good at face value. You must take a multi-factor approach for these, otherwise you're just left thinking "well, the outcome isn't equal, so there must be some type of overarching discrimination at play". 1. Employment: COVID hit every race and black unemployment was at an all-time low before it hit (actually in part to Trump, surprisingly or not). Education plays a factor into this as well. 2. CEOs: Again, education is the main factor. Unless there's data around properly educated black people being denied C-Level jobs due to their race. 3. Wage gap: Education... 4. Income: Education and types of employment stats would be helpful 5. Median household income: Single parent homes (~75% of black households) surely bring that number down for their population.

Yeah, definitely some schools just "graduate" students to get them out of their classrooms, even if they wouldn't pass in a more, let's just say, quality school setting. I agree that inner city schools aren't doing their students any favors and they do graduate at a lower academic level than other districts, and that actually impacts the college drop-out rates too. That's why I'm all for vouchers so folks who live in those areas can place their kids in better districts. That's actually why I moved last year because I don't want my kids going to Columbus Public Schools like I did. A lot of people can do the same too, if they desire. That said, it may impact specific races to varying degrees, but it's not like those school districts are intentionally shitty, just to disserve a specific race. Education is a whole different beast to discuss.

Don't you think having systemic racism be so fluid is a problem? It should have a clean, neat definition otherwise its too simple to just lump unequal outcomes into that bucket. Systemic would be a widespread system, law, policy, etc. that intentionally impacts the outcome of a specific race. Do you have an example that's currently present?

I don't agree with that definition. What's the threshold for the amount of racist individuals to transcend into systemic? Does this threshold apply to all races equally?

Fair enough, I may have done the same. Juice isn't worth the squeeze so-to-speak. If there isn't an active TN law regarding that, then he was definitely treated unfairly. But I still wonder if it was only because of his skin color, or if that cop was just a pecker in general.

Oof. I'd hope we can all agree on that. Racism is definitely real, but I stand on the side of it being an individual issue versus systemic.

@fcgamer Should clear this up, but to me, he's thinking outside of just the racial scope to try and identify the reasons behind the disparity in family structure. If you want to hold firm on "Because the system is racist", then maybe you should provide more detail on why that's the driving factor?

Did your friend seek legal advice on being held overnight due to an incorrect address? Or is there Tennessee law stating that you have to keep the address on your ID current within a period of time? @CodysGameRoom You'll get a mixed bag of anecdotal situations like this, which is understandable since racism is real. I'm not sure what perspective you're hoping to gain (or have others gain) since I don't think anyone here disputes that racism exists.

Wouldn't you think the high-school graduation gap between white and black be much larger then? (92% to 86% respectively)

I'm curious if you know of any similar situations between police and other races? Because if they exist (I'm sure they do), then that's an individual/police structure issue more so than a racial issue. Also, I'm sure historically racist laws/policies have a trickle-down effect in 2020, but I'm not sure to what degree. Since there's plenty of successful black people that were affected (directly or their parents/grandparents) it's not a guaranteed hindrance on their ability to succeed. Those aren't barriers any more and individual decisions can be made to be successful. Also, while there is a link between poverty and crime, you can't broadly state that your examples above are due to historic racism rather than those individual's choices.

Couldn't find any of your comments that mentioned "poverty" or "divorce" so if you can re-share, I'd appreciate it.

To preface, more research and stats are needed, but here are some that review as granular as possible to find a link between the disparity and racism. https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf https://www.manhattan-institute.org/white-cops-dont-commit-more-shootings https://www.brightworkresearch.com/criticalthinking/2019/11/why-the-claims-by-black-lives-matter-on-police-shootings-are-false/#The_Validity_of_Colin_Kaepernick_and_Other_NFL_Players_Kneeling_to_Protest_Police_Violence I'm sure that there are plenty of sources citing the opposite, but I try to focus on the ones that present the best statistical analysis. Happy to look at opposing sources that provide granular detail. PS: I know people take Ben Shapiro with a grain of salt, but he refers to studies like the ones above:

I assume you're referring to police "targeting" black people, which just isn't factually accurate, unless you're just looking at the raw numbers in relation to population. Plenty of factors play into that disparity and must be taken into consideration before determining true reason for the disparity. This also could imply that they are being held accountable when unjustly killing other races, which also isn't accurate, so it's not a racial issue, just an issue of accountability/prosecution in general. (not saying you're implying that, but I know a lot of people make that assumption)

I agree with that angle of the movement and I don't think anyone could/would disagree with that notion. A lot of people across the nation aren't held accountable for breaking the law, but they most definitely shouldbe. (Shitty to see ~75% of murders in Chicago go unsolved for example). That said, I agree with the review of things like Qualified Immunity to ensure that police are held to the same standards of the law, like any other citizen would/should be. What I take issue with is the racial divide. People not being held accountable when breaking the law, isn't a racial issue.

Tell that to the black people murdered by police Do you truly believe it is equal for white and black people? Tell me you HONESTLY believe it is an equal path. They didn't choose to be black. 1. I'd say the same thing to anyone who's been unjustly killed by police, regardless of race. It wasn't their lack of equal rights, it was their unfortunate interaction with an evil police officer(s). 2. Yes, it is equal. I believe it because it's the law. Again, people will always have their unique mindset, but the laws are equal and that's the best we can do. Hold people accountable to those laws when broken. 3. Being black doesn't impact their ability to make the correct choices in life that will keep them employed, out of crime/jail and out of poverty. This is true for all races.

Police reform may address police brutality as a whole (though there's a valid argument that the police need MORE funding if you'd like them to be better staffed and trained) but it doesn't impact the much greater disparities between races that impact quality of life, like so many outlets are highlighting (income, education, housing, crime, etc.). Equal rights is the best we can do and they do "mean shit", otherwise we'd be in much worse shape as a nation. The blame for the aforementioned disparities is being pinned on not being treated equally, systemic racism, unequal opportunities (however you'd like to word it) when in reality, individuals have equal path of rights that can lead them to a more successful life for themselves and their kin. But I've yet to see this movement address the angle of how individual choice affects outcome. Otherwise, we'd be discussing things like graduation rates, family structure, college drop-out rates, real estate prices vs. income, etc.

I didn't say difficult to achieve, I said it's unobtainable. It's a wild goose chase. And again, we have equal rights for all Americans. Instead of chasing a dream, maybe the focus should be on addressing things that actually impact outcome and are within individual's control.

Then what is the solution to having everyone treat each other equally? It's a utopia that will never happen, it's unobtainable. There will always be shitty people that treat others differently because of a multitude of factors, including race, and it isn't exclusive to one race. The false narrative I'm referring to is that unequal outcomes is solely based on systemic racism and/or unequal opportunity/rights.