scaryice

This week's result:

Question #30 (2/8-2/14) - When it comes to 2, what game comes to mind?

These results really show you how important it was to be launched in that boom period for the system. I wouldn't expect King Kong and Volguard to do better than Final Fantasy and Zelda, but there it is. Although, Zelda 2 might be so low because it's listed as just "Link no Bouken" (Adventure of Link). If you type in Zelda 2 in the search box, there's no suggested result. But it does come up if you actually search for that (but not "Zelda II".)

This is probably a good time to point out that the search suggestions may play a role in the poll results. That is to say, without clicking to actually do the search, some suggestions will pop up under the search box. If you put in just the number "2" into the search box, the suggestions are 1942, Keisan Game 2, SMB2, King Kong 2, and Stadium Events (aka Family Trainer 2). So I guess I should be checking that every week too, huh.

Next week's question: When it comes to "the package was good", what comes to mind?

We already had a poll for good manuals, which Zelda won followed by DQ3. They didn't use the word for box specifically, but I have to assume this will mostly be about that? Maybe about box art? Some replies on Twitter are talking about box art, but others are talking about actual sturdy cases, so who knows.

Crash 'n the Boys: Street Challenge finished. Easy 10 point game when you understand how to play. I've beaten it before, so it took less than an hour this time:

Also, I finally got around to posting all the previous years' standings on Google Sheets, along with some other stats. You can check it out here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mtVLHFkZmpURNTAwnwL0n9i6KaEPuXl8wtsSB3gvdV0/edit#gid=1249105543

Pinbot is done. I've been playing this game off and on for a few weeks now, finally was able to do it today. I think the key is to not advance the playfield, because it adds too much randomness. Better to stay on the first stage and slowly build your score. I did advance it at the end to crush my previous best. Overall, it was a satisfying game to clear, since I just had to slowly get better at it without any easy strats.

7 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

That's my point: there are different ways of allowing continues: sometimes it's on the game's menu with the word "continue" right in the option, but warp zones, to me, are a more "primitive" way for developers to let a player get back to where he was.  I don't think Miyamoto intended for SMB to be like a five level, five minute game for the rest of eternity once word got out about the in-game warp zones, but that's basically where we're at.

The game developers put the ABBA code in Ikari Warriors with intention, and that intention was specifically to allow continues; it wasn't an accident - they purposely programmed in a way for the player to be able to continue.  Same with SMB using A and start and Kung-Fu Heroes using A and start.  It was the '80's and they didn't have everything ironed out just yet.  Someone mentioned Dino Riki already, but another famous game that had its continue mode changed on localization was Ghosts 'N Goblins: in the Japanese version you have to put in a code on the title screen to continue, but they must've realized that putting in that code over and over again got really old really fast, so for the US release they just put the option right in the menu... clearly, they were learning as they went, and that doesn't make continuing in the Japanese version any less legitimate just because you have to enter a built-in code.

I guess my point in all of this is that I can't believe how incredibly low the bar is for almost all of the titles in this project, allowing "easy" modes, warps, single level plays (Spy vs Spy) etc, but then when it comes to using continue codes that are programmed into the game, that's like this hard line that cannot and shall not be crossed - unless it's in the manual.  In my last post, I was just pointing out some of the games that let you skip levels in the manual , but somehow the "must be in the manual" rule only applies to continue codes?  Why is that?  Why don't level skips count if they're in the manual?  It just seems so arbitrary to me, like people are going out of their way to rationalize a standard because that's the way it's always been done.  You can skip most of a game if you're using warp zones but you can't skip most of a game if it's by way of following the instructions on how to do it in the manual?

So it's apparently okay to do Burai Fighter on easy even though it gives you the worst ending, but playing through 100% of Ikari Warriors or Kung-Fu Heroes with continues and getting the best/only ending is totally unacceptable?!?  If this topic isn't open to further discussion anymore, that's totally fine, but that means one of you poor bastards is going to have to spend countless hours of your personal time trying to beat Ikari Warriors without continues every single year, all because whomever originally made the rules a decade ago erroneously thought that the game's developers did not intend for anyone playing their game to use the very continues that they built right into the code.

BTW @scaryice I noticed our Gauntlet II run is still on the board even though I told you we used continues.  I went and tried a solo game and it doesn't mention any way of continuing in one player mode either, so I'm wondering what exactly is the difference between Gauntlet II and Ikari Warriors?  Neither one mentions continues in the manual or the game and you have to press buttons after you die to continue in both of them, so what exactly is the distinction that makes one acceptable and the other one banned?  Either they should both allow continues or both not allow continues, unless I'm missing something...

 

Gauntlet II does mention "adding other players" into the game in its manual. I don't think I'd call that a code, though. I see no problems with counting that.

As for Guerrilla War, I don't think it's ever come up because the game is so brain dead easy. I'm not treating that code any differently - it should be allowed too, since it's in the manual. Any manual code is fine. We also allow only playing the last 1/4th of Lemmings, which I believe Daniel Doyce did this year. The difference between those games and something like Ice Climber is a clear ending.

Our logic has always been that it's fine to get any ending, as long as you've beaten the whole game. And no "bad endings", which would rule out the easiest one in Bubble Bobble for instance. Burai Fighter doesn't say "BAD END", it says "An ace would see a graphic ending", which implies that the easy level is also an ending.

Part of the reason "the bar is low" is because in most years we don't even come close to 677. Requiring the best endings would mean we would do even worse. Now if I was one of the people trying to clear every game in the library, I would avoid taking some shortcuts just for my own state of mind. I wouldn't skip levels in Lemmings, for instance. But I don't think we need to be that tough on everyone.

But we do need some standards. As I said before, I'm not sure how we could logically allow continue codes but not other codes. If the games don't tell you about them anywhere, then what's separating a continue code from a 30 life code, or an invincibility code? I mean, there's a reason they're called cheat codes. You mentioned warp zones, but they're a built in part of the game that you can access without cheating. They might be cheap. There's a lot of gameplay tactics that are cheap - I know I was pause-buffering the other day in Chubby Cherub, for instance. But there's a difference between cheap and cheating.

I know you can argue that early games didn't bother with actual continue menus, but that quickly became the standard and most NES games are like that. Also, I think part of the charm for some of these games is the fact that you can't legitimately continue, and it's ridiculously hard as a result. I did beat Ikari Warriors before, and that was one of my greatest gaming moments. It's only really a small handful of titles that are hard enough to be affected, so I feel don't feel bad about making people do it the hard way.

9 hours ago, bronzeshield said:

One thing to add is that, unfortunately, sometimes it was the US staff tasked with localizing a game that made these decisions -- and I'm not just talking about making games harder to combat the rental market. For example, the continue code is present in the manual for the Japanese/Famicom version of Dino Riki (Shin Jinrui: The New Type), but not the North American manual.

Our sense of what's "official" for a game may well hinge on some decision made by an intern with a hangover! And if it weren't for that poster included with Solomon's Key...

I'd be really curious if the Famicom manuals for Arkanoid or Bump 'n Jump (aka Buggy Popper or バギー・ポッパー) have the codes in them, actually, as they seem like two likely candidates. Can't find scans for those, unfortunately.

I checked before, and I'm pretty sure Arkanoid does not. I don't know about Buggy Popper, though. I was curious about Arkanoid a while ago, and I remember mentioning that if the Japanese manual has codes, then we should probably allow those since it's already fine to play the JP/PAL versions of the game if you feel like it (except for those rare cases where they're totally different).

We should allow the code for Dino Riki, then. I think you mentioned it before, but I totally forgot about it.

This week's result:

Question #29 (2/1-2/7) - When it comes to oni, what game comes to mind?

As you might've expected, lots of Japanese only games this week, including all four Momotarou games. I don't have too much to say about these results, so I'll just note that out of 29 polls, we've had 26 different games at #1. The only games to win more than one poll are DQ3, SMB, and Takeshi no Chousenjou.

Next week's question: When it comes to 2, what game comes to mind?

Kinda lame. Although we do get to see the raw popularity of some of these games. I'm guessing Dragon Quest 2 followed by Mega Man 2.

I've been trying Pinbot for the last week and I can't seem to do much with that one. I think my best was 7 million. So anyway, here's Commando:

Stinger

1 hour ago, guitarzombie said:

Since no one said anything, I'm gonna assume I can beat Burai Fighter on the easiest difficulty?

Yes, that's fine.

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I know codes aren't allowed for games, but does holding A when you press start on game over actually count as a code?  I don't use codes for my personal NES completions list, which was my reason for knocking this game out in the first place, and it didn't even occur to me to not count continues when it's just holding down A.

That explains why you were saying it was easier not to warp... It is a code, even though it's simple. So, I don't see how you could allow that without allowing every kind of code. I'll remove it from the list, but I'm sure you can do it without continues!

Quote

actually, the more I think about it, warping in action games and simulating games in sports games violates the spirit of a completions project like this one far more than using a one button continue code does.  I mean, I played through all 32 levels of Kung-Fu Heroes and conquered every single one, but Tecmo NBA basketball, a game with a full season mode and best of seven playoffs, was literally 98% simmed other than a couple of single games played manually at the end!  Which of those two games was actually "completed" here in 2024?!?  But what do I know...

It is kind of dumb to just simulate the season. But the logic is, the game lets you do it. That's why I at least play the first game of the regular season so I can feel like it's my team, before I start simming. I ended up playing 6/31 games (with the short season setting). I think that game feels weird because you can just change the setting for each team at any time (manual, coach, skip). If it was a game where you were locked into a single team for the entire franchise mode, it would probably be feel less weird to sim.

1 hour ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Gauntlet 2 prompts you to continue, even playing it solo.  Iirc, so does Guerilla War.  Kung Fu Heroes would be like ABBA in Ikari 1 and 2.  It isn't mentioned, and wouldn't reasonably be assumed to exist either within the game or by reading the manual.  That's the distinction.

Yes, that's always been the approach I've taken. Gauntlet 2 allows you add players to a game whenever, so it's easy to keep going forever in multiplayer. Can you continue even in a 1P game? I don't see how that works unless I'm missing something...

1 hour ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I make a point to complete games without warps, but even disregarding that, playing through the earlier levels in Kung-Fu Heroes gets you a bunch of items that are mandatory to be able to kill some enemies, so warps are probably your enemy in this game.  For example, you need the sword to be able to beat certain dudes on the final and toughest level of the game (8-4), so if you end up warping to the end without picking up the sword, you're shooting yourself in the foot, assuming it doesn't give you the items automatically when you warp (I've never warped in this game so I don't really know).  Plus, once you get decent, the whole game is a joke except for four levels: 7-4 and the 8-2, 8-3,  8-4 gauntlet, so I think it's better and easier to just play it warpless and get all the items while honing your skills...

I thought that warping was the optimal way, since you can't get more than 9 lives. You can get everything you need via the warp route, although that assumes you're looking up where everything is - blind would be rough.

19 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

Hey @scaryice, I just thought of something.  We had tried and failed to beat Kung Fu Heroes together, which has a bunch of pain points.  I was wondering your thoughts on the hypothetical situation where we actually pulled it off.  See, splitting the base points makes sense, but the pain points are meant as a reflection of the "pain" of having to complete them.  As such, would those points be awarded in full, due to both parties enduring the same amount of "pain" to beat it, or would those points be split as well?  Like either scenario works, but it might be interesting to hear both your thoughts and those of the others here, before a precedent needs to be established.

Right now, there's exactly one point for every year a game wasn't beaten. I hate to just make points up out of thin air. I mean, all of the points are made up, but yeah... I would have to just say no, and just split them like the normal points. Technically, you would be sharing the pain, right?

9 hours ago, the_wizard_666 said:

I am confirming that I am okay with the point split.  I hate half points We actually discussed it before we played it.

Sure! I still have to give you half a game each, though...

Chubby Cherub beaten:

Ultimate Basketball is done. Look at the final score of the championship game:

Goal finished. Brazil defeated Argentina 3-1 in the final.

Tecmo NBA Basketball done with the Bulls:

Chicago 46-34 Golden State

(sim to playoffs)

Chicago 35-28 Miami
Chicago 54-44 Detroit
Chicago 36-29 New York
Chicago 40-34 Golden State
Chicago 37-26 Golden State

20 hours ago, guitarzombie said:

I finished Karnov too.  Thank god it had infinite continues.  I didn't remember if it did or didnt, but my recollection was it wasn't a super hard game.  In fact some of the bosses are much harder than the final boss.  Another one of those games where if you know what you're doing and know where to use your powerups, its pretty easy.  Of course I was learning it and had to refight bosses over and over again in a weakened state, but I could tell what you make the game easy.  For example, knowing when to use your shield power ups for the boss, and which ones you can cheese.  Also knowing where the powerups are really help too.  Not a terrible game, really.

 It looks like you beat Karnov before for the 2015 thread. That's notable, because it means that there's now only one game remaining that has been beaten by a different person in every year of this competition - Bubble Bobble. There were two entering 2024, and Karnov was the other one:

If anyone has previously beaten Bubble Bobble and wants to do it again, I don't mind. I just find it interesting. Besides, there are still another 21 games which have gone unbeaten in some years, but have also never been beaten twice by someone.

13 hours ago, Gaia Gensouki said:

I'm done with Metal Mech. This was originally supposed to be a short playthrough before moving on to DoaE, but I somehow kept choking on the last level over and over again, so that this turned into an evening filling ordeal.

Congrats! That level is always awful. One of the hardest NES levels, along with the last one from 1943. Those two immediately stand out to me from my experiences.

This week's result:

Question #28 (1/25-2/1) - When it comes to "middle" (China), what game comes to mind?

Kung Fu Heroes is known as Super Chinese on the Famicom (and Little Ninja Brothers is Super Chinese 2 - we never got the third game). It seems to have been a well known game over there, probably because Namco published it. A lot of these games have the kanji asked about in the title (中), like the Nakayama Miho game. Door Door is there because another meaning of the kanji is inside, and the whole game is about trapping enemies inside doors. So that's a clever answer (EDIT: apparently, it's because it's a Chun Soft game). The Jinguuji Saburou game is the first FDS one, I didn't put the whole title because it's very long.

Next week's question: When it comes to oni, what game comes to mind?

Oni (鬼), as in the Japanese ogre-like creatures. Looks like we'll be seeing Shin Onigashima again! Also, Gegege no Kitarou (Ninja Kid), because that's also the first kanji in Kitarou. By the way, I never knew as a kid that beginning of Air Man's stage in Mega Man 2 was full of Oni heads (I had no idea what an oni was back then). Although confusingly, the Japanese name for that enemy is just Goblin. Sure looks like an oni to me though.

Gyruss is completed. Took two tries, game overed the first time somewhere around Mercury.

768,450 points

Gonna start up Baseball Simulator 1.000 now...

EDIT:

It's finished. The Winners have won.

Results

WI 10-0 SW, 2 innings, 0 hits allowed, 4HR (Mort, Rolf x2, Van)
HE 2-15 WI, 1 inning, 1 hit allowed, 3HR (Rolf, Van x2)
AL 2-15 WI, 3 innings, 2 hits allowed, 4HR (Evan, Noel x2, Van)
WI 13-2 HO, 2 innings, 2 hits allowed, 4HR (Evan, Mort, Noel, Van)
PO 0-30 WI, 1 inning, 0 hits allowed, 9HR (Evan, Mort, Noelx3, Rolfx3, Van)

That last game was one for the ages...

Totals

9 innings
83 runs scored
6 runs allowed
5 hits allowed
24 home runs

6-Noel
6-Rolf
6-Van
3-Evan
3-Mort

12 hours ago, nerdynebraskan said:

Ikari Warriors and Mutant Virus definitely seem to be in most folks' Top 10 lists for NES difficulty. Arkanoid, Bases Loaded I/II/4, Championship Pool, Dragon Power, High Speed, Kung Fu Heroes, Silkworm, Sky Kid, and Starship Hector all seem to be pretty daunting for one reason or another.

And honestly any other game with 4+ pain points on it should be a pretty good clue... except for Little Ninja Brothers. Is that one just too long for most people? I like that one, and might replay it this year.

Ikari is definitely the hardest NES game I've beaten, even with glitches. Although, I never even managed to beat Sky Kid when I tried a few years ago. I put 5+ hours into it and still didn't feel like I was that close. Kung Fu Heroes isn't bad, because it's very short - you just need a bunch of attempts to get a lucky run. Little Ninja Bros is an rpg, a longer game, and a rarer game. All those things are working against it.

Yesterday was another good day for us, with Motor City Patrol, Klashball, and NES Open all going down!