Heritage Auctions Thread

[docile tapeworm | 4,194]

4 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

How many people had to say yes for this nonsensically encapsulated garbage to end up in an auction. Nuts.

 

4 hours ago, Velvet_the_Elf said:

I thought the exact same thing......

what kind of crazy person sent this into WATA in teh first place?  Further who sends thsi shit into Heritage, and who at HA says, YES we'll take it!!!

not even a gem... psh

[jonebone | 1,307]

Yeah that is pretty disappointing. At least it is very obviously marked as REPRODUCTION but history has shown us that the HA buying crowd isn't exactly savvy, paying thousands for games that have historically hundreds. You don't spend or sell counterfeit money and those counterfeit games have no business being sold anywhere, let alone graded and sold through a "reputable" auction house. 

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

8 hours ago, jonebone said:

Yeah that is pretty disappointing. At least it is very obviously marked as REPRODUCTION but history has shown us that the HA buying crowd isn't exactly savvy, paying thousands for games that have historically hundreds. You don't spend or sell counterfeit money and those counterfeit games have no business being sold anywhere, let alone graded and sold through a "reputable" auction house. 

I thought it was a bad look when I saw it. Listing a reproduction cart just makes them look like they are willing to sell anything.

[peg | 370]

Why would WATA grade a fake game in the first place?  Talk about throwing your reputation (whatever it had) away for some cheap bucks.

 

I'm still not convinced most of these sales are actually real.  3K for a worthless PS2 game?  More like a scam to trick the comic book marks into thinking this stuff is all worth tons of money.

 

Are these guys still shelling out thousands for non-rare and beat up black box games?

Edited June 18, 2020 by peg

[Mijael | 347]

I am 100% sure Heritage is not faking auctions. Thet have a big reputation to care . Why would they care to fake a PS2 auction when they get millions on antiques , real estate , art etc?

I think its a group of people who are shilling the auction , one of them sends the game , and they have a good system to send the bids so there`s always a victim paying a lot of money. And in the worst case scenario if someone of them wins the auction , they already figured out what to do .

Edited June 18, 2020 by Mijael

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

I'm not even sure if it's shilling. It could just be people with so much money that they don't care what they pay as long as they get whatever they are after and don't have to wait. Probably the same people that hit the crazy BINs of stuff that's been on ebay for months. 

[peg | 370]

Surely someone with 3 grand could go buy something, anything and be better off than with some shitty ps2 common.  You could literally just run around hitting random BIN and come up with a much better use of the money.

Edited June 18, 2020 by peg

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

4 minutes ago, peg said:

Surely someone with 3 grand could go buy something, anything and be better off than with some shitty ps2 common.  You could literally just run around hitting random BIN and come up with a much better use of the money.

They could, but people with that kind of money do crazy things.

[GPX | 1,369]

6 hours ago, Mijael said:

I am 100% sure Heritage is not faking auctions. Thet have a big reputation to care . Why would they care to fake a PS2 auction when they get millions on antiques , real estate , art etc?

I think its a group of people who are shilling the auction , one of them sends the game , and they have a good system to send the bids so there`s always a victim paying a lot of money. And in the worst case scenario if someone of them wins the auction , they already figured out what to do .

What you described is essentially market manipulation. And I tend to agree with at least some of the sales of relatively commons going for astronomical prices. When things start to go bonkers to the extreme, I think it’s fair to question things a bit.

 

[Californication | 1,477]

What happens to a a sealed grading if the plastic around the game is torn, but the box looks really good?

[GPX | 1,369]

5 hours ago, peg said:

Surely someone with 3 grand could go buy something, anything and be better off than with some shitty ps2 common.  You could literally just run around hitting random BIN and come up with a much better use of the money.

 

5 hours ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

They could, but people with that kind of money do crazy things.

You would think these rich people who do crazy things would spend money on something like cars, ladies, watches etc. rather than on some random video game in which they don’t seem to have any connection with (eg. 3K for a sealed PS2 game gives us a rough clue they have no idea about PS2 prices).

Then there are the rich ones that actually earn their pay. You would think these are the types who would be more cautious than most when it comes to spending their cash.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

7 minutes ago, GPX said:

 

You would think these rich people who do crazy things would spend money on something like cars, ladies, watches etc. rather than on some random video game in which they don’t seem to have any connection with (eg. 3K for a sealed PS2 game gives us a rough clue they have no idea about PS2 prices).

Then there are the rich ones that actually earn their pay. You would think these are the types who would be more cautious than most when it comes to spending their cash.

You would think so, but there have been a lot of crazy prices on there.

[GPX | 1,369]

6 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

You would think so, but there have been a lot of crazy prices on there.

Which is why some of us are remaining doubtful on the legitimacy of some of the sales.

[peg | 370]

That's the thing, people with lots of money usually got there for a reason, and it isn't from blowing money on random shit you have no clue about.  At least there is some logic involved in buying black boxes at outrageous prices, as those are at least sought after and fundamentally sound titles if you are getting into NES.

 

A fucking PS2 dirt nothing common game with millions of copies out there, and at 3K?  Is there even a PS2 game that is legitimately worth anything close to that?

[Amermoe | 150]

17 minutes ago, peg said:

Is there even a PS2 game that is legitimately worth anything close to that?

There's only a few that come close, and it depends on the condition and who's buying, but generally you're right no PS2 game is worth $3k.

The only ones that come close, would be a graded sealed Rule of Rose, with very high gold grade, and maybe a sealed Wizardry also sealed in very high grade. Both of these titles have a very low print run, and both are very difficult to find sealed. If you happen to find either in pristine condition sealed, and authenticated by a grading company, some would pay a very high premium. The games themselves aren't that rare, but the condition is. 

Historically, those 2 titles have hit very close to $2k in the conditions I've described above. The only caveat to all this is you have to find the right buyer. The amount of people willing to pay those sorts of premiums for this condition is very very low.

[T-Pac | 7,513]

Wait, Heritage Auctions is selling graded pirated games? That's not just bad for their reputation - that's straight-up illegal...

-CasualCart

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

1 hour ago, CasualCart said:

Wait, Heritage Auctions is selling graded pirated games? That's not just bad for their reputation - that's straight-up illegal...

-CasualCart

That would be true if it was a pirated product. It's an unlicensed adult game that was translated from a unlicensed Famicom game called AV PAchisaro. So there is no acts of piracy, and there are hints that it was legally reproduced. Which makes the "crime" be that they are auctioning off a unlicensed erotic game. 

[T-Pac | 7,513]

6 minutes ago, FenrirZero said:

That would be true if it was a pirated product. It's an unlicensed adult game that was translated from a unlicensed Famicom game called AV PAchisaro. So there is no acts of piracy, and there are hints that it was legally reproduced. Which makes the "crime" be that they are auctioning off a unlicensed erotic game. 

Reproducing any media for distribution without permission from the rights-holder is piracy. It doesn't matter whether or not the original media was licensed. For example, homebrews are unlicensed, but if someone were to go around making copies of a new homebrew release and selling them without the creator's consent, that would be piracy.

-CasualCart

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

3 hours ago, CasualCart said:

Reproducing any media for distribution without permission from the rights-holder is piracy. It doesn't matter whether or not the original media was licensed. For example, homebrews are unlicensed, but if someone were to go around making copies of a new homebrew release and selling them without the creator's consent, that would be piracy.

-CasualCart

Sorry to say this but your claims are wrong. Because what you are detailing is copyright infringement, not piracy. The legal definition of piracy is this: "...willful trademark counterfeiting or copyright piracy on a commercial scale." Where as copyright and trademark infringement is using a percentage of anything while clearly not making it identical. Is the difference annoying? Yes. But it is something worth knowing when you are marketing anything you have copyrighted/trademarked.

Reproduction is not always the means of making a clone of said product. As proven with this game there are differences between the original and this version. Meaning that the unaltered content in question would be seen as copyright infringement. Because everything else (language, case, name, etc.) are what makes it not be a pirated game. Nor is it a copyright infringement, thanks to further finds that lead me back to what Wikipedia says (and other sites back up).

Again, this goes back to the fact that not all licensed games are registered for such protections. Unless Japanese copyright laws say otherwise. Which leads to me also stating the following: : "...and there are hints that it was legally reproduced."

Based on what I did say, both Hacker Japan (a Japanese company) and Panesian (a Taiwanese company) were registered as unlicensed game companies on a French website (which is saved on the Wayback Machine). And if you look at the link I have supplied, you will see that Panesian was allowed to reproduce said game. Which makes the game a legal reproduction, even if there are differences between both versions.

So with that said... I want you to know that I'll always like your art and wit. But you also need to put that energy into fact checking before you make any conclusions. And not at the level I do these days. Because with what I have discussed happens to be something I learned in 1999-2001. And refresh every time I forget a small portion of it. With reasons that have me spend more time trying to avoid legal issues than I spend developing my business plan. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by FenrirZero

[T-Pac | 7,513]

9 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

Sorry to say this but your claims are wrong. Because what you are detailing is copyright infringement, not piracy. The legal definition of piracy is this: "...willful trademark counterfeiting or copyright piracy on a commercial scale." Where as copyright and trademark infringement is using a percentage of anything while clearly not making it identical. Is the difference annoying? Yes. But it is something worth knowing when you are marketing anything you have copyrighted/trademarked.

Reproduction is not always the means of making a clone of said product. As proven with this game there are differences between the original and this version. Meaning that the unaltered content in question would be seen as copyright infringement. Because everything else (language, case, name, etc.) are what makes it not be a pirated game. Nor is it a copyright infringement, thanks to further finds that lead me back to what Wikipedia says (and other sites back up).

I don't mean to keep going back-and-forth with this, but as someone who works in the media and entertainment industry, copyright and piracy stuff is important to me haha.

You're completely correct that what I'm referring to is copyright infringement. However, piracy is a form of copyright infringement (you've already provided the definition to back this up). Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like you're defending the legitimacy of the original Panesian release of this game, in which case you're right that there isn't any piracy or copyright infringement involved. What I'm talking about, though, is a reproduction cart of this release, which is piracy because it is copying and distributing an unaltered version of the Panesian release without consent from the rights-owner.

If this repro release wasn't a 1-to-1 copy of the Panesian release, then it wouldn't be piracy. I don't believe this is the case here, but if it is, my apologies.

-CasualCart

[OptOut | 8,881]

@CasualCart is right, this is NOT an original Panesian release, it is indeed a pirate bootleg copy.

The very thought of WATA grading and then Heritage going on to auction a freaking bootleg boggles the mind, but apparently some people think it's a totally fine and appropriate thing for them to do. Personally, I think it makes a farce of their ENTIRE business as a supposed AUTHORITY on video game collectibles, but HEY maybe that's just me! 

[GetTheGreg | 105]

At least the cartridge sold for fuck all.

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

11 hours ago, CasualCart said:

I don't mean to keep going back-and-forth with this, but as someone who works in the media and entertainment industry, copyright and piracy stuff is important to me haha.

You're completely correct that what I'm referring to is copyright infringement. However, piracy is a form of copyright infringement (you've already provided the definition to back this up). Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like you're defending the legitimacy of the original Panesian release of this game, in which case you're right that there isn't any piracy or copyright infringement involved. What I'm talking about, though, is a reproduction cart of this release, which is piracy because it is copying and distributing an unaltered version of the Panesian release without consent from the rights-owner.

If this repro release wasn't a 1-to-1 copy of the Panesian release, then it wouldn't be piracy. I don't believe this is the case here, but if it is, my apologies.

-CasualCart

I understand. And what I say is me respecting you, your role in the entertainment industry, and the fact the buyer is fodder for any future art pieces.

Because I want to believe, that you being in the industry, the first thing you need to do is talk to a lawyer. And in this case the lawyer will tell you that piracy is the physical form of copyright/trademark infringement. Which means that the product in question has to look as close to the original as possible. Atop of being promoted as an authentic product. Otherwise you are limited to having an unauthorized reproduction if the original copyright/trademark is still valid.

In the case of Toy Toni, the person could simply buy the original labels, chips, and carts and it would be a pirated good since it was not made by the original owner. And in cases with video games, the digital content does not have to be included. Because that is digital media of generally unknown origins.

Plus I have found a complete eBay listing for the original game. There is zero resemblance between the two. So the question is tied to the digital content since nobody can bring up the validity of who produced this reproduction, where, etc. Not even former stores that sold it have this information. And since Panesian never did file a cease and desist once it popped up, the ink you use to do your artwork has more monetary value than it did prior to being graded. 

Point being is that I have studied this law for both studio and business purposes. And have to because of my history on how others (outside Japan) have treated me, even after they knew I have Asperger's. Plus since I have family that span across the entire entertainment plateau, it's my way of trying to respect those I might want to do business with (in Japan). Hence why I refuse to make any conclusive accusation until I have all the evidence saying that is the only conclusion.

Because this is a Wata making a conclusion and somebody profiting off of it. Not somebody purposely selling graded Toy Toni Star Wars figures as original seals.

Edited June 24, 2020 by FenrirZero

[T-Pac | 7,513]

3 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

In this case I have found a complete eBay listing for the original game. The reproduction holds no physical similarities to the original. Which makes it not be a pirated good. Double since there are no reports on who produced it, if they did so with permission from Paneisan, or even an actual yer it was released. 

Plus this is no different than Super Potato selling 3P reproductions of Famicom and Super Famicom consoles. But that is a different topic since Wata does not grade consoles.

Thanks for clarifying - I was unaware of what the original Panesian release looked like (I'm against 'adult' media like this, so I've never looked into the case differences). That being said, this would still qualify as software piracy (if it was made without Panesian's permission, like you mentioned). That's where you're right about clone consoles - in many cases, there's no pirated software there, just re-created hardware based on expired patents, so those aren't pirated goods.

It might help to think of it like a DVD movie. Reproducing a DVD to sell without permission from the rights-holder is considered piracy based on the distribution of the media, not based on whether or not the bootleg DVDs physically resemble the source material.

-CasualCart

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

1 minute ago, CasualCart said:

Thanks for clarifying - I was unaware of what the original Panesian release looked like (I'm against 'adult' media like this, so I've never looked into the case differences). That being said, this would still qualify as software piracy (if it was made without Panesian's permission, like you mentioned). That's where you're right about clone consoles - in many cases, there's no pirated software there, just re-created hardware based on expired patents, so those aren't pirated goods.

It might help to think of it like a DVD movie. Reproducing a DVD to sell without permission from the rights-holder is considered piracy based on the distribution of the media, not based on whether or not the bootleg DVDs physically resemble the source material.

-CasualCart

Not a problemo. And from what I originally found Panesian is no longer a softcore porn making video games. So any rights they have goes to their successor, MAG. And since MAG makes computer hardware (giggity) any data they had involving this game might be gone. Which would explain why it will be impossible to prove digital piracy is an issue here.

Plus I should add that the closest I will ever get to playing adult games is Dragon's Dogma. Both Akihabara and Nakano Broadway killed H-games for me.