PSA some asshole is doing spot on counterfeits of NWC now

[Sumez | 2,935]

Man, I really am late to this thread aren't I? I'm sorry to have missed out on all the fun 

  

5 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

A lot of the stuff in the homebrew section falls under what the community now calls "repro" but is actually illegal bootleg, ie: any game "ported" to another console without obtaining an appropriate license.  Am I allowed to sell an Ultimate Frogger NES cart on here?  Should I be allowed to have my Wanted thread where I'm looking for almost all of the VS NES games? 

Actually, there's really not a lot of that on the homebrew section, if at all. And it's one of the primary reasons I'm immediately more interested in participating in VGS than NA - i just don't have any interest in counterfeiting stuff - just a personal stance of course, in this context it doesn't matter whether it's legal etc., I'm just more interested in "actual" homebrew stuff.

5 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

I don't think there's a collector on this forum that doesn't own an "illegal" bootleg game.

That's quite an assumption. Tanooki stated the same thing in a different thread the other day, and I'm genuinely confused why you'd think that's the standard.
Accidentally ending up with a bootleg or two, bought unwillingly, or included in a big lot etc., that I can understand. I pay no mind to them, and don't add them to my collection tracker. But willingly going out to acquire a pirate game? I don't really care what other people do, but in a community of people who enjoy paying money to acquire original physical copies of games, I'd assume the majority of people wouldn't have any interest in that stuff.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Sumez

[fcgamer | 4,722]

18 minutes ago, Sumez said:

Man, I really am late to this thread aren't I? I'm sorry to have missed out on all the fun 

  

Actually, there's really not a lot of that on the homebrew section, if at all. And it's one of the primary reasons I'm immediately more interested in participating in VGS than NA - i just don't have any interest in counterfeiting stuff - just a personal stance of course, in this context it doesn't matter whether it's legal etc., I'm just more interested in "actual" homebrew stuff.

That's quite an assumption. Tanooki stated the same thing in a different thread the other day, and I'm genuinely confused why you'd think that's the standard.
Accidentally ending up with a bootleg or two, bought unwillingly, or included in a big lot etc., that I can understand. I pay no mind to them, and don't add them to my collection tracker. But willingly going out to acquire a pirate game? I don't really care what other people do, but in a community of people who enjoy paying money to acquire original physical copies of games, I'd assume the majority of people wouldn't have any interest in that stuff.

I do enjoy paying money to acquire original copies of things, that's why I hate all of the modern Aliexpress bootlegs, pcb swaps, and the like. Old boots for the win!

[Tanooki | 4,932]

Yup @SumezI did say that like he did in here.  And I do... so far up to 10 multicarts for Gameboy/Color (and 2 more on FC one being modern, the other from the 90s I believe) and I know what they are, don't care, like them as they're fun little snapshots in time.  And yes I do own LARRY for the NES too, time for that prison sentence no?  Pretty Sure Sierra/Codemasters wouldn't be too pleased that it exists both due to the fact it's a straight copy of the game mechanics, but that it is the original Larry they still sell too (in nicer form) on GoG and likely elsewhere.  It's a homebrewed bootleg of the highest quality.  How's that for overlap?

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,012]

Weird that people are arguing about bootlegs when the item in the OP is counterfeit

coun·ter·feit

/ˈkoun(t)ərˌfit/

Learn to pronounce

adjective

made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.

"two men were remanded on bail on a charge of passing counterfeit $10 bills"

Similar:

fake

faked

copied

forged

feigned

simulated

sham

spurious

bogus

imitation

substitute

dummy

ersatz

knockoff

pirate

pirated

phoney

Opposite: genuine

noun

a fraudulent imitation of something else; a forgery.

"he knew the tapes to be counterfeits"

Similar:

fake

forgery

copy

reproduction

replica

imitation

likeness

lookalike

mock-up

dummy

substitute

fraud

sham

phoney

pirate

knockoff

rip-off

put-on

dupe

Opposite:

original

verb

imitate fraudulently.

"my signature is extremely hard to counterfeit"

[Sumez | 2,935]

10 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

Weird that people are arguing about bootlegs when the item in the OP is counterfeit

Because it's a bootleg. Even if it's less common in the context of video games, the term "bootleg" is cannonically often used about unlicensed releases by an unaffiliated party (like a bootleg concert recording) which aren't necessarily a counterfait product.
But that doesn't make this any less of a bootleg.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Sumez

[fcgamer | 4,722]

20 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

Weird that people are arguing about bootlegs when the item in the OP is counterfeit

coun·ter·feit

/ˈkoun(t)ərˌfit/

Learn to pronounce

adjective

made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.

"two men were remanded on bail on a charge of passing counterfeit $10 bills"

Similar:

fake

faked

copied

forged

feigned

simulated

sham

spurious

bogus

imitation

substitute

dummy

ersatz

knockoff

pirate

pirated

phoney

Opposite: genuine

noun

a fraudulent imitation of something else; a forgery.

"he knew the tapes to be counterfeits"

Similar:

fake

forgery

copy

reproduction

replica

imitation

likeness

lookalike

mock-up

dummy

substitute

fraud

sham

phoney

pirate

knockoff

rip-off

put-on

dupe

Opposite:

original

verb

imitate fraudulently.

"my signature is extremely hard to counterfeit"

There's no intent for deception though, so it fails by the above definition you posted.

[Deadeye | 1,596]

FWIW for Tetris, Nintendo had the license for Tetris on console.  IIRC, Atari had it for computer only.  The Gaming Historian did a great video on it. 

 

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,012]

16 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

There's no intent for deception though, so it fails by the above definition you posted.

 

IF deception was not the goal, THEN it wouldn't look as close to a 1:1 replica as possible. 

It's like going to AliExpress and buying a Gucci jean jacket for $30 instead of $3,000. While they look as close to the original as possible, it is a counterfeit. There's layers of deception in counterfeit goods. For one, the buyer is being duped into thinking this hot garbage is worth $130+. Any onlookers are being deceived into think the purchases owns a real copy of NWC 1990.

[GPX | 1,369]

FWIW, I don’t mind people doing bootleg/repro for personal use. Unfortunately, when it sells, it often ends in the hands of scammers, asses, and greedy mofos out to shake as much money as they can to the unsuspecting.

The ones that are near identical to the original source is bad for the hobby than good, is my humble opinion. Imagine when repros get to the point that WATA or VGA can’t even tell the difference, what then?

 

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,012]

Examples of counterfeit goods for those who need visual aids

[Sumez | 2,935]

27 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

It's like going to AliExpress and buying a Gucci jean jacket for $30 instead of $3,000.

Yeah, no way that jacket is a bootleg. 

Spoiler

It's clearly for your torso

 

[Deadeye | 1,596]

@DefaultGenmade a video on aftermarket games.  I may or may not agree with each point, but  I think he lays out his logic well (in the video).  Here was his diagram with examples. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFCpcn6StWk&t=600s

He even goes into a point I kind of agree with.  Even though repro is the incorrect term for counterfeits, it is a lost cause to correct and proposes to call licensed reproductions as reissues. 

[Sumez | 2,935]

14 minutes ago, Deadeye said:

it is a lost cause to correct and proposes to call licensed reproductions as reissues. 

Even though I do feel that "repro" tends to come across as terminlogy invented to paint bootlegs/pirated software in a nicer light (see obvious piracy sites like ocdrep*****tions.com), and I'm generally against using the term for that, it's not strictly wrong.

"Reproduction" in any context outside of video games, often used for spare parts of stuff that's not being actively produced anymore etc., to fill a niche that wouldn't otherwise be filled, are quite often illegally produced without the required license. Especially true if it involves copyrighted artwork.
I guess even in the context of video games, you'd usually expect them to imply something like a bootleg with extra care put into it (contrast any common Dendy bootleg).

There's a pretty fine line between that and counterfeits, though, and although the difference could be argued to be intent, I don't think it matters when you're looking at the end product.

 

EDIT: I'm curious, what's the "gray area" in that picture, and what makes it gray? Usually when that term gets brought up on debates such as this, it's not really gray at all. But the rest of the infographic looks pretty spot-on.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Sumez

[guitarzombie | 924]

8 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I wouldn't recommend that you do either, it might come across as stalking

Who said I was going to??  Where did you derive this from?!  Boy, you're bizarre.  

[Deadeye | 1,596]

@SumezI do agree.  I would prefer counterfeits not be called repros.  However I don't have the energy to wage a war on language in this case, it is just everywhere.   Not suggesting you are, but I do see that in some.  Instead, I'll just accept that it happens and call the licensed ones as reissues.  

[guitarzombie | 924]

8 hours ago, phart010 said:

The whole purpose of making a fake game that closely resembles the original is to deceive others.

No it isnt, its for people to want something they can't afford so they buy something 'close' to it.  Theres a demand for it and thats why exists.  People who are deliberately deceiving people with fake games only exists at an expensive price point to someone who has too much money and too little sense.  When that happens, its MUCH more in the minority.  The issue is once these get out and people cant tell the difference.  In just about EVERY repro, its blatantly obvious just by looking at the PCB board.  Its just that simple.  THIS NWC is unprecedented and bad things CAN stem from it.

[Sumez | 2,935]

Ok, managed to take the time aside to watch @DefaultGen's video, and I couldn't agree more with the whole thing.

That's of course because most of it is pretty clear cut factual information that can't really be bended (even though you tend to see a lot of people, even in this thread, trying to do so).
But even the subjective opinions that are sprucing the videos are identical to my own on this subject, and the way it's being demonstrated is very effective. Good job  

There seems to be some kind of general tendency with some people that "I like this thing so it can't be a bootleg" or even "I don't like this so it must be a bootleg", which gets in the way of communication. It's better to just call stuff what it is. I even made an NES game that fits very squarely into the "homebrew bootleg" category, so I should be biased, but I can't deny what it is.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Sumez

[Ferris Bueller | 495]

5 hours ago, Deadeye said:

@DefaultGenmade a video on aftermarket games.  I may or may not agree with each point, but  I think he lays out his logic well (in the video).  Here was his diagram with examples. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFCpcn6StWk&t=600s

He even goes into a point I kind of agree with.  Even though repro is the incorrect term for counterfeits, it is a lost cause to correct and proposes to call licensed reproductions as reissues. 

 

Feels like I watching my panel, but made in to a YouTube video. Interesting.

Aftermarket Games, good stuff.

EDIT: I see I'm in the description! Nice. Good sport.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Ferris Bueller

[Tulpa | 3,491]

31 minutes ago, Sumez said:

EDIT: I'm curious, what's the "gray area" in that picture, and what makes it gray? Usually when that term gets brought up on debates such as this, it's not really gray at all. But the rest of the infographic looks pretty spot-on.

I think it's just pointing out the semantics of "homebrew", which normally suggests a dude in his home making a game, as opposed to a larger entity doing roughly the same thing.

Of course, back in the NES day, a lot of your smaller publishers were just barely above homebrew. Color Dreams was literally five dudes in an office in Corona, California, each working on their own game at times. Likewise, Active Enterprises was two full time owners and something like three college student programmers churning out really simple games as well.

[phart010 | 1,706]

25 minutes ago, guitarzombie said:

No it isnt, its for people to want something they can't afford so they buy something 'close' to it.  Theres a demand for it and thats why exists.  People who are deliberately deceiving people with fake games only exists at an expensive price point to someone who has too much money and too little sense.  When that happens, its MUCH more in the minority.  The issue is once these get out and people cant tell the difference.  In just about EVERY repro, its blatantly obvious just by looking at the PCB board.  Its just that simple.  THIS NWC is unprecedented and bad things CAN stem from it.

Let’s rephrase.. to deceive others -OR- to deceive yourself

[fcgamer | 4,722]

36 minutes ago, guitarzombie said:

Who said I was going to??  Where did you derive this from?!  Boy, you're bizarre.  

Wow, cropping a quote to make it look weird, good job bro!

[fcgamer | 4,722]

1 hour ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

For one, the buyer is being duped into thinking this hot garbage is worth $130+. Any onlookers are being deceived into think the purchases owns a real copy of NWC 1990.

Not sure how you draw that conclusion. The seller is honest about what they're selling, plenty of potential buyers (myself included) might go into the bidding because we actually want this cart, knowing full well what it is and isn't.

[fcgamer | 4,722]

1 hour ago, GPX said:

FWIW, I don’t mind people doing bootleg/repro for personal use. Unfortunately, when it sells, it often ends in the hands of scammers, asses, and greedy mofos out to shake as much money as they can to the unsuspecting.

The ones that are near identical to the original source is bad for the hobby than good, is my humble opinion. Imagine when repros get to the point that WATA or VGA can’t even tell the difference, what then?

 

Start a new grading company that has more expertise. That's what.

[fcgamer | 4,722]

52 minutes ago, Sumez said:

with extra care put into it (contrast any common Dendy bootleg).

You do realise that Dendy games are highly collectible and oftentimes quite expensive, right? You also do realise that the original (collectable) Dendy games are of a high quality, perhaps even 1:1 with the legit product?

Just thought it's worth mentioning.

[GPX | 1,369]

2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Not sure how you draw that conclusion. The seller is honest about what they're selling, plenty of potential buyers (myself included) might go into the bidding because we actually want this cart, knowing full well what it is and isn't.

If it falls into the right hands with the winning bidders, then we can all breathe a sigh of relief. Would you approve though if it falls in the hands of a scammer planning to sell privately to an unsuspecting buyer for a huge profit?

4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Start a new grading company that has more expertise. That's what.

If WATA and VGA are scratching their heads figuring out whether an item is authentic or a repro, I doubt if another company will be able to solve the dilemma. Hopefully this will never happen in our lifetime..