Masks in public/at the park

[JamesRobot | 5,786]

43 minutes ago, Richardhead said:

Yeah James! Coexist! Stop giving the double bird!

Edited January 5, 2021 by JamesRobot

[Richardhead | 2,813]

Just now, Jeevan said:

lol

LoL!!!

[Richardhead | 2,813]

1 minute ago, JamesRobot said:

Lol... 

[JamesRobot | 5,786]

2 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

Lol

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

5 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

What you and others can't seem to fathom is that neither @JamesRobot nor his children were trying to kick anyone else out of the public park or dictate their actions beyond "stay at least 6 feet away from us," which would preclude the newcomer from playing near (within 6 feet of) his kids, who were already occupying the swings.

Are  you suggesting he explain to a 4 year old with almost no abstract ability that they can play together but must stay at a minimum of 6 feet apart? Have you ever tried to explain anything to a 4 year old? He's not going to get it so the only possible outcome is either all in or all out.

 

1 hour ago, Boosted52405 said:

From everything I've read so far, she really didn't come off as a "Karen", but rather how about any parent you'd confront at a park in the manner you detailed out in the OP.  If anything, you really came off as a Karen based on the info provided.

I thought the woman's name was Karen. Who's Karen here?

 

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

If I bring my cat to the park, must and oblige and let it play with your dog? Lol.

Yes, you must. If you bring your cat to an off leash park and a dog rolls up on you, it's your responsibility to make sure your cat is friendly with other dogs. If not, you can face a heavy fine from the city and you, as the owner, are responsible for the outcome. That's exactly what we're saying.

You can't really say you're talking about a child's park with leashes because it's not the same comparison, these kids aren't on leashes. They're running around being mental.

[JamesRobot | 5,786]

1 hour ago, Boosted52405 said:

Ok, based on your original post, it 100% appears you went 0-100 in a matter of seconds, in public, not only in front of your kid, but a stranger's kid.

Not denying that.  And maybe I wasn't clear in the first post but she was yelling at me from word go.  Likely due to her own interpretation of what her boy told her which I didn't really hear but I think it was as simple as, "he told me I have to wear a mask."

I don't feel you need to defend your position further and I fully expected to hear this point of view when I posted.  And I respect it.  Others can choose to hear it or not.  I also think if we had a better balance of gender here, we would have more people of the same opinion.  

I think it's been a good discussion overall.  And while much of my defense of my own position is playing devil's advocate, I still maintain that I didn't instigate.  

That is not to say that I wouldn't apologize to that poor lady or that I'm off the hook in anyway.  But I think it's a good setting for discussing social boundaries.

[Richardhead | 2,813]

Wear a mask or get body checked. 4 years old or 400 years old.

GTFO anti-maskers. 
I will fight you anywhere. You or your 4 year old. Legally or illegally. 
Have any of you seen TMZ videos ?

Wear a damn mask!

Edited January 5, 2021 by Richardhead

[fcgamer | 4,719]

1 hour ago, Code Monkey said:

 

Yes, you must. If you bring your cat to an off leash park and a dog rolls up on you, it's your responsibility to make sure your cat is friendly with other dogs. If not, you can face a heavy fine from the city and you, as the owner, are responsible for the outcome. That's exactly what we're saying.

 

No, I wouldn't. Besides, I'd be worried about my cat, it's more than likely your dog would try to rip him to shreds, or at least antagonize him, which would also cause him distress leading possibly to a harmful outcome towards his health.

As the owner, the responsibility is on me to control my pet / child / whatever. She didn't control hers, then got defensive likely *to save face*, therefore she's in the wrong.

Honestly, the situation goes so much further than the mask or her kid being able to / not being able to play with random, imo, so much further. And her reaction shows that.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

Another point some people keep making is about the park being public, and how there isn't a legal rule of first come, first serve. Here's my thoughts on the issue, as a decent human being.

Two things come into play, #1, what I'll refer to as the "disturbance" or "offending behaviour", and #2, what I'll refer to as who was there first. Let's examine first some common "disturbances"

-smoking

-reeking of alcohol

-playing loud music

-making out to a point you should get a room

-cursing

Etc

These are behaviours that while not necessarily illegal, can be a bit disrespectful. So:

If I reek of alcohol and am sitting on a park bench, then I crack open another beer and pound it , that is my business if I'm not causing any problems and am keeping to myself. If a mom then comes over with her kids, sits next to me, and chastises me, imo she's in the wrong as she came second, and she could have sat somewhere else.

However, if she was with her kids, then I rolled up and sat down next to them, reeking of beer, and cracked open another, I'm in the wrong as I am committing the "offending" behaviour and I wasn't there first.

Imo it's about being a decent, considerate human being, despite what any actual law says.

During a pandemic, not wearing a mask would be considered the "offending" behaviour of the two options. They came second, they're again in the wrong.

Edited January 5, 2021 by fcgamer

[fcgamer | 4,719]

2 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Are  you suggesting he explain to a 4 year old with almost no abstract ability that they can play together but must stay at a minimum of 6 feet apart? Have you ever tried to explain anything to a 4 year old? He's not going to get it so the only possible outcome is either all in or all out.

I just explained to 4 year olds today about sound waves, vibrations, and pitch, in a foreign language to them. 

A few weeks back we learnt about motion and physics, and the whole germs / mask / covid thing was taught almost a year ago.

If the kids aren't understanding, you probably just aren't explaining it in a way that's digestible to them.

 

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

Sorry to say this @JamesRobot but she was not showing the signs of being a "Karen".

As Wikipedia states...

"Kansas State University professor Heather Suzanne Woods, whose research interests include memes, said a Karen's defining characteristics are "entitlement, selfishness, a desire to complain", and that a Karen "demands the world exist according to her standards with little regard for others, and she is willing to risk or demean others to achieve her ends."

It's a little sexist, per say, since men can also be "Karens" too.

With that said, the only reason I am not fully condoning you is because your behavior are based on what it means to experience severe anxiety. And if you knew my variation of Asperger's, you would know that mine has made me become angry over things that did not require it. So when it comes to this pandemic, even that innocent 4-year-old can be seen as a walking contagion. Something that germaphobes see when it comes to cold/flu season.

In this case you are a parent first. This means that you should have made it clear that everything tied to the pandemic has you on edge. That no matter what current facts claim, you feel safer knowing that your kids are playing with those who also wear mask. Because it's your job to protect your kids while you are still alive. And if this offends her in any way, be the better person by apologizing and leave towards another part of the park.

Because it is also your job to show your kids what is the correct way to act in situations like this one. Just like it is hers to do just that with her kid.

I will let that slide because this pandemic has taken a lot out of you. And I can only bet that you would have let that kid be a kid if the worse we were facing was the common cold. Where as the worse I faced has its own list. With the emotional end of that list being the reason why I am forcing myself to do a "Asperger's Therapy" kind of thing this year.

With that said... You both are parents. She should have respected your feelings, and you should have been more restrained with yours. And I can only hope that if you both meet again this can be resolved. 

[fcgamer | 4,719]

In Armenia, Karen is a masculine name, so...

 

[JamesRobot | 5,786]

3 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

Karen's defining characteristics are "entitlement, selfishness, a desire to complain", and that a Karen "demands the world exist according to her standards with little regard for others, and she is willing to risk or demean others to achieve her ends

I'd say she's textbook by Wikipedia's definition.  I'd also add that there's a little more derogatory connotation that wiki leaves out.  Really I'm just using the term to illustrate and add a little flavor.  But according to the terms:

Entitlement - She felt she shouldn't need to wear a mask in public despite local law and that her child can play with whomever despite the fact that the other party expressly does not want to.

Selfish - No regard for others.  Again by not wearing a legally mandated mask in public (really for the protection of others) and that she can't respect me enough to leave me alone.

Desire to complain - She immediately started shouting me down across the park.  Not initially of course, but because of the perceived slight directed at her child.

Willing to risk or demean others to achieve her ends - Shouting at a total stranger in a park is demeaning and clearly risky for her own wellbeing as well as her child's.  

 

3 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

I will let that slide because this pandemic has taken a lot out of you.

I actually don't feel as though pandemic has taxed me too greatly.  Yeah it's certainly annoying but if anything, everyone should be held to a higher standard of respect because of it including myself. 

 

3 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

She should have respected your feelings, and you should have been more restrained with yours.

I agree.  Best of luck with your therapy, Fenrir. 

 

[Boosted52405 | 178]

22 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

Really I'm just using the term to illustrate and add a little flavor.  But according to the terms:

Entitlement - She felt she shouldn't need to wear a mask in public despite local law and that her child can play with whomever despite the fact that the other party expressly does not want to.

Selfish - No regard for others.  Again by not wearing a legally mandated mask in public (really for the protection of others) and that she can't respect me enough to leave me alone.

Desire to complain - She immediately started shouting me down across the park.  Not initially of course, but because of the perceived slight directed at her child.

Willing to risk or demean others to achieve her ends - Shouting at a total stranger in a park is demeaning and clearly risky for her own wellbeing as well as her child's. 

Interesting, using your own terms quoted above, can you deny acting in all these same manners? 

One other thing I'll share, and then I'll quit defending the Mom, although she totally could have avoided all this by masking her kid from the get go.  For any parent involved in this discussion...how would/do you feel when a stranger talks to your toddler, let alone tells them what to do?  It puts them instantly on the defensive, if not a protective/offensive state of mind. 

With the above in mind, I can only assume this occurred, and then the OP essentially barked an order at her ("he must wear a mask to play near us").    This is the point where I feel instigation started, instead of attempting to talk civilly to the parent and asking to keep their distance.  Again, Mom totally should have masked the kid, never argued that.  However, the points of entitlement/selfishness etc, play a role here on both sides.

OP - I absolutely respect you for posting this on a public forum looking for feedback, I assume a large percent of people would not take it that far out of self-reflection.  Hopefully you'll restrain the guns in public in front of kids next time :).

[SuperJimtendo | 1,116]

Your body your rules. No means no. 

[spacepup | 2,404]

Nuance and little misunderstandings / miscommunications can lead to escalating situations very quickly.  For example, there is a huge difference in how I would expect a mother to respond or act if the kid said one of these two things:

(a) Mommy, that man said I had to put a mask on in order to play with his kid

or

(b) Mommy, that man said I had to put a mask on!

That little snippet in part A is huge in terms of the message it gets across and how I'd expect a parent to act.  In neither case should either parent in this situation get all heated and nasty, but I can understand how someone could become protective/defensive, if a random stranger tells THEIR child that he/she should do or not do something.

These issues are sort of expected right now, given that there are such wildly different opinions about what is ok and not ok, during the pandemic.

I've found myself in numerous situations where I was out in public at some point last year, and another person either was doing something I wasn't comfortable with, or was straight out just violating the rules.  From a practical perspective, I often just took it upon myself to counteract in a way that made me comfortable, rather than arguing with someone who would just likely get defensive and argumentative.  I'm not saying this is always the right call, but it's how I decided to handle things, since I learned very quickly that I could NOT count on other people to act in a way that I felt was safe and I could only truly control my own actions.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

47 minutes ago, Boosted52405 said:

For any parent involved in this discussion...how would/do you feel when a stranger talks to your toddler, let alone tells them what to do?  It puts them instantly on the defensive, if not a protective/offensive state of mind. 

I don't have kids, but here's my two cents on the above:

I honestly don't feel comfortable talking with random children, despite being a school teacher and living in a country where child molestation and violent crimes are both practically unheard of. 

That being said, I find it very hypocritical of those parents who get on the defensive when, as you put it, a stranger is talking to their kid and then subsequently is telling them what to do. I mean, it should have never gotten to that point byo begin with, imo, as the parent should be doing his or her job as a parent, and part of that would be to not have your young child talking with random strangers, especially in a country where child molestation and stranger danger are in the forefront of everyone's mind. I mean, am I really such out of touch in the matter? If you got such an issue with "B" , then you should be doing your part to begin with.

I put it in the same category as parents who get bent out of shape when their child falls over at school and bruises his or her knee minorly while playing, yet the same parents hit the kid regularly at home or barely do anything more than feed the kid to take care of him or her. It just really messes with my mind in a way I can't comprehend, maybe someone can explain it.

[Boosted52405 | 178]

51 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I don't have kids, but here's my two cents on the above:

I honestly don't feel comfortable talking with random children, despite being a school teacher and living in a country where child molestation and violent crimes are both practically unheard of. 

That being said, I find it very hypocritical of those parents who get on the defensive when, as you put it, a stranger is talking to their kid and then subsequently is telling them what to do. I mean, it should have never gotten to that point byo begin with, imo, as the parent should be doing his or her job as a parent, and part of that would be to not have your young child talking with random strangers, especially in a country where child molestation and stranger danger are in the forefront of everyone's mind. I mean, am I really such out of touch in the matter? If you got such an issue with "B" , then you should be doing your part to begin with.

I put it in the same category as parents who get bent out of shape when their child falls over at school and bruises his or her knee minorly while playing, yet the same parents hit the kid regularly at home or barely do anything more than feed the kid to take care of him or her. It just really messes with my mind in a way I can't comprehend, maybe someone can explain it.

That completely misses my point, especially in the environment/situation being discussed here.  I am not referring to a negligent parent letting their 4yo run the streets etc.

This is a public park where kids (complete strangers of kids) traditionally run around with one another and have a good ol' time pre-pandemic days.  Parents keep close by and keep an eye on them, generally standing back or sitting on a bench.  I've done it countless times.  However, when/if a stranger talks to your kid in that environment, it will absolutely put you in the concerned/offensive state - I am sure 99% of parents would agree.  Then, to go as far as the stranger telling my kid what he can and cannot do, you better believe it would get the hair on my back to stand up.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

9 minutes ago, Boosted52405 said:

That completely misses my point, especially in the environment/situation being discussed here.  I am not referring to a negligent parent letting their 4yo run the streets etc.

This is a public park where kids (complete strangers of kids) traditionally run around with one another and have a good ol' time pre-pandemic days.  Parents keep close by and keep an eye on them, generally standing back or sitting on a bench.  I've done it countless times.  However, when/if a stranger talks to your kid in that environment, it will absolutely put you in the concerned/offensive state - I am sure 99% of parents would agree.  Then, to go as far as the stranger telling my kid what he can and cannot do, you better believe it would get the hair on my back to stand up.

Nope, you missed my point. If the mom would have been doing her job as a parent to begin with, there's no reason the kid would have been talking with JamesRobot, or any other stranger. I'd reckon JamesRobot probably didn't want the encounter, and likewise, I personally don't know any grown adult who likes talking with random children. That's the situation at hand.

Random kid comes up to JamesRobot, essentially forcing him into an interaction with a child stranger. JamesRobot states that he doesn't want the potential Covid-19 carrier to be playing with his kids, unmasked. The mom gets bent .

By your admission, the mom is on the defensive because the maskless wonder is talking to a stranger, JamesRobot. But why exactly is that occuring? Because the mom isn't supervising her kid. If I had kids, I wouldn't want them to be talking to random strangers, but then again, to make sure that didn't happen, I'd have to supervise them as well.

This has nothing to do with random kid on kid action.

[JamesRobot | 5,786]

1 hour ago, Boosted52405 said:

Interesting, using your own terms quoted above, can you deny acting in all these same manners? 

To a degree.  While I should've disengaged, I also didn't go out of my way.  From my perspective, the fight came to me.  Sure I have some entitlement regarding my children.  Who doesn't?  And I don't even really care that mom showed up with no mask.  It's a very large park with plenty of open space and she intentionally kept her distance.  However, I did use that as a point to antagonize because I felt attacked.  

 

1 hour ago, Boosted52405 said:

OP essentially barked an order at her ("he must wear a mask to play near us").

I was pretty calm at this point.  Certainly not barking orders.  Though I should have chosen my words better.  I really should have said that he can't play with us.  Her boy was ultimately looking for that approval from me. 

[Boosted52405 | 178]

1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

Nope, you missed my point. If the mom would have been doing her job as a parent to begin with, there's no reason the kid would have been talking with JamesRobot, or any other stranger. I'd reckon JamesRobot probably didn't want the encounter, and likewise, I personally don't know any grown adult who likes talking with random children. That's the situation at hand.

Random kid comes up to JamesRobot, essentially forcing him into an interaction with a child stranger. JamesRobot states that he doesn't want the potential Covid-19 carrier to be playing with his kids, unmasked. The mom gets bent .

By your admission, the mom is on the defensive because the maskless wonder is talking to a stranger, JamesRobot. But why exactly is that occuring? Because the mom isn't supervising her kid. If I had kids, I wouldn't want them to be talking to random strangers, but then again, to make sure that didn't happen, I'd have to supervise them as well.

This has nothing to do with random kid on kid action.

It certainly appears you haven't been to a public park with child.  Parents don't really helicopter their kids, they let them run along the playground as it's intended and supervise.  It almost feels like an unspoken unity of parents all keeping an eye across the playground - that's my experience in the midwest at least.  When they are really little, yes, the parents will navigate to play/teach/keep from falling however. 

He even said, the family showed up, she sat on a bench, he went to play and simply made his way over to the OP.  The only thing I would have expected differently from the Mom up to that point was to equip the kid with a mask, and perhaps even proactively ask the kid to keep a distance - but that is not traditionally how parks work and your mileage will vary based on parent to parent during the pandemic.

[Boosted52405 | 178]

7 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

To a degree.  While I should've disengaged, I also didn't go out of my way.  From my perspective, the fight came to me.  Sure I have some entitlement regarding my children.  Who doesn't?  And I don't even really care that mom showed up with no mask.  It's a very large park with plenty of open space and she intentionally kept her distance.  However, I did use that as a point to antagonize because I felt attacked.  

 

I was pretty calm at this point.  Certainly not barking orders.  Though I should have chosen my words better.  I really should have said that he can't play with us.  Her boy was ultimately looking for that approval from me. 

Well you both certainly have limited equal entitlement at a park playground, it's when you fail to co-exist and/or not respect each other that the issues will begin.  I definitely agree that the situation began when the 2nd family arrived, but once the conflict arose, your details really paint that you pushed it aggressively versus trying to discuss it with her.  I am guessing that if you respectfully asked her to keep a distance versus tell her what she needed to follow, the altercation may have been avoided.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

1 minute ago, Boosted52405 said:

It certainly appears you haven't been to a public park with child.  Parents don't really helicopter their kids, they let them run along the playground as it's intended and supervise.  It almost feels like an unspoken unity of parents all keeping an eye across the playground - that's my experience in the midwest at least.  When they are really little, yes, the parents will navigate to play/teach/keep from falling however. 

He even said, the family showed up, she sat on a bench, he went to play and simply made his way over to the OP.  The only thing I would have expected differently from the Mom up to that point was to equip the kid with a mask, and perhaps even proactively ask the kid to keep a distance - but that is not traditionally how parks work and your mileage will vary based on parent to parent during the pandemic.

Lol I go to the park all the time dude.

You cannot and won't address the point because in doing so you would have to place the fault on the mom.

You state the mom did nothing wrong and that the parents as a loose unit all keep an eye out. Yet you also state that you would be upset if your kid was talking to a stranger, and even more upset if the stranger told your kid to do something, like wear a mask .

But the problem is twofold. A, the same stranger you would take issue with is the same part of the group that keeps an eye out, and then secondly, it's your kid making and initiating the contact. Please explain to me how you can have it both ways, how that's gonna work. The simplest answer is to monitor your own kid, is it not? And maybe also give a lesson about talking to strangers or not. You disagree?

[fcgamer | 4,719]

1 minute ago, Boosted52405 said:

Well you both certainly have limited equal entitlement at a park playground, it's when you fail to co-exist and/or not respect each other that the issues will begin.  I definitely agree that the situation began when the 2nd family arrived, but once the conflict arose, your details really paint that you pushed it aggressively versus trying to discuss it with her.  I am guessing that if you respectfully asked her to keep a distance versus tell her what she needed to follow, the altercation may have been avoided.

Not likely. She was the "offending" party of the two, and her actions show that she had no shred of concern about respecting anyone else's feelings.

[Boosted52405 | 178]

1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

Lol I go to the park all the time dude.

You cannot and won't address the point because in doing so you would have to place the fault on the mom.

You state the mom did nothing wrong and that the parents as a loose unit all keep an eye out. Yet you also state that you would be upset if your kid was talking to a stranger, and even more upset if the stranger told your kid to do something, like wear a mask .

But the problem is twofold. A, the same stranger you would take issue with is the same part of the group that keeps an eye out, and then secondly, it's your kid making and initiating the contact. Please explain to me how you can have it both ways, how that's gonna work. The simplest answer is to monitor your own kid, is it not? And maybe also give a lesson about talking to strangers or not. You disagree?

I will happily address any point you'd like to discuss, I still don't feel you are understanding.  The kid in question did not come up and talk to strangers, he went within a few feet of the OP and his kid - here is the exact text from the OP "her kid comes within a couple feet looking like he wants to play."  This is 100% normal behavior at a park for a 4yo.  Again, to explain this I really feel you haven't been to a busy park with kids.  As long as the Mom was supervising her kid in this situation, I still feel the only thing she did wrong was send him in unmasked.  You seem to feel she was negligent for letting her kid get close to anther kid/family on a playground, I fully disagree.

The unity piece I am referring to is how parents are able to simply monitor their kids versus helicopter them at a park.  I am not saying that all the parents are running around swinging each others kids, they simply allow the kids to run and play together (pre-pandemic days).