Think I might bite on a RetroTink 2X Pro

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

Anybody here using one? Liking it?

Currently I use the RetroUSB AVS for NES games, and it works well, and an snes mini for snes games. But I don't have a way to play any other old games on my monitor.

Pretty sure this is the easiest solution 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

I  can't speak to that specific unit, but I've got a RetroTink 2X Mini and am extremely happy with it in regard to playing SNES, Genesis, etc., on my 4K modern TV with no noticeable lag.  I've got an AVS for NES as well, but having the RetroTink has allowed me to play other classic systems on the go via my GAEMS case (portable monitor/speakers) versus just the AVS or more modern fare.  If you need upscale more than just composite, the Pro will do you well, otherwise I'd say the Mini would be more than enough.  The only downfall of the mini is not being able to properly display 32X output properly most of the time, but that's due to its output being extremely off-spec as well as weak (according to sources more detail oriented about the reasons than I), causing pink/orange output in most cases, rendering everything goofy looking and borderline unplayable.  Regular Genesis works fine, however, as well as SNES, N64, etc.  Hope this helps!

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

27 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

I  can't speak to that specific unit, but I've got a RetroTink 2X Mini and am extremely happy with it in regard to playing SNES, Genesis, etc., on my 4K modern TV with no noticeable lag.  I've got an AVS for NES as well, but having the RetroTink has allowed me to play other classic systems on the go via my GAEMS case (portable monitor/speakers) versus just the AVS or more modern fare.  If you need upscale more than just composite, the Pro will do you well, otherwise I'd say the Mini would be more than enough.  The only downfall of the mini is not being able to properly display 32X output properly most of the time, but that's due to its output being extremely off-spec as well as weak (according to sources more detail oriented about the reasons than I), causing pink/orange output in most cases, rendering everything goofy looking and borderline unplayable.  Regular Genesis works fine, however, as well as SNES, N64, etc.  Hope this helps!

Cool, I heard Genesis has some issues, but that's good to know you've had good experiences so far. I dont own a 32x, so thats not a big loss. I'm definitely hoping to get the best picture I can without mods so I'll be taking advantage of the s-video and component where I can. But its nice to know I can use the composite in the mean time while I upgrade my cables. Thanks!

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

5 hours ago, BortLicensePlate said:

Cool, I heard Genesis has some issues, but that's good to know you've had good experiences so far. I dont own a 32x, so thats not a big loss. I'm definitely hoping to get the best picture I can without mods so I'll be taking advantage of the s-video and component where I can. But its nice to know I can use the composite in the mean time while I upgrade my cables. Thanks!

No problem!  The Mini does have S-video in and is what I use with SNES and have tested with N64 and does look clearer than composite.  That being said, upscaled composite still looks pretty great when compared to hooking those same systems up via RF and in a lot of cases when hooked up however to a CRT (blasphemy, I know).  I want to say the Pro is roughly double the price of the Mini, so if cost is an issue, you may want to check out video examples of both online before making a final decision.  Hope you enjoy whatever version you end up with!

[FireHazard51 | 2,043]

On 12/30/2020 at 9:46 PM, BortLicensePlate said:

Cool, I heard Genesis has some issues, but that's good to know you've had good experiences so far. I dont own a 32x, so thats not a big loss. I'm definitely hoping to get the best picture I can without mods so I'll be taking advantage of the s-video and component where I can. But its nice to know I can use the composite in the mean time while I upgrade my cables. Thanks!

Made my purchase of the 2x-Pro and I'm equally interested in seeing how the Genesis is going to work out.  I read into it more and it outputs a signal that isn't to standard so that's the issue.  Also fun fact about the 2x-Pro, it won't handle 480p outputs.  Which is a rare thing as most systems don't really use 480p.  If you do have that need then you need to get the latest product, 2X Pro Multiformat (RT2X-M).  Good review of the issue is here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLS2Ds78KR0  

I don't really play Xbox and I can bypass the Wii issue by just using my Wii-U.  Took me a long time to figure out that the 2x-Pro is what I need and I can skip the 2X-M until I get into the Xbox....but isn't the 360 backwards compatible with original Xbox?  So maybe it'll be a long while before I come up with an issue that requires me to get the 2X-M.
 

I'll let you know what I think of the 2x-Pro when it comes and I hook it up with my new 4K TV.  That is if you haven't already decided on getting the 2x-Pro.

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

5 hours ago, FireHazard51 said:

Made my purchase of the 2x-Pro and I'm equally interested in seeing how the Genesis is going to work out.  I read into it more and it outputs a signal that isn't to standard so that's the issue.  Also fun fact about the 2x-Pro, it won't handle 480p outputs.  Which is a rare thing as most systems don't really use 480p.  If you do have that need then you need to get the latest product, 2X Pro Multiformat (RT2X-M).  Good review of the issue is here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLS2Ds78KR0  

I don't really play Xbox and I can bypass the Wii issue by just using my Wii-U.  Took me a long time to figure out that the 2x-Pro is what I need and I can skip the 2X-M until I get into the Xbox....but isn't the 360 backwards compatible with original Xbox?  So maybe it'll be a long while before I come up with an issue that requires me to get the 2X-M.
 

I'll let you know what I think of the 2x-Pro when it comes and I hook it up with my new 4K TV.  That is if you haven't already decided on getting the 2x-Pro.

I did end up purchasing the 2X-pro, still waiting for it to come in the mail 

I was aware that it cannot do 480p, but I was under the impression that I could switch the wii's output to 480i..? I think? I was planning on using it with a wii for emulation, so hopefully there isn't an issue with that.

Anyway still would like to hear your thoughts once you get it! I'll be posting about my experience as well.

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

My retro think came in, basically the same day I said I didnt have it yet haha.

I was playing some N64 on it, and it does what its supposed to. The games run well, not feeling any input lag on my gaming monitor, works great. The visuals are N64, I wasn't expecting a masterpiece, it ain't no ultra hdmi, but if you just want to play some N64 on a modern display, its really good. I haven't tested any other consoles yet 

[Sumez | 2,930]

It looks pretty good, but its usage must be kind of limited when it only takes component video and composite. So for most consoles you'd need a component to RGB converter (which RetroTink also makes).

It seems that they also make one that takes RGB over SCART, but doesn't support other formats, and that one is actually cheaper. I wonder why they don't have one that eats all of those inputs? So much of the hardware must be shared between them that it feels like a waste.

For the same price as the 2x Pro you could get an OSSC. Anyone knows of the pros/cons between the two? OSSC is usually considered the gold standard as far as I've heard, but it's also the only one I have experience with. Its deinterlacing definitely leaves something to be desired compared to the Framemeister, but I can't imagine RetroTink does that any better, since it requires a larger buffer and better hardware.

[Deadeye | 1,595]

RetroTink 5X pro is in development.  Not sure when it is coming out.  However it will do 5X scaling and accept component, Scart RGB, S-Video, and composite. 

[Sumez | 2,930]

That's great news, I figured it was just a question of time.

OSSC is probably still a much better package for the price (OSSC Pro is coming out, but that's probably going to be a $500 deal), but having the ability to use composite for the consoles that just just can't/won't mod is definitely going to be helpful.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Sumez

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

1 hour ago, Sumez said:

That's great news, I figured it was just a question of time.

OSSC is probably still a much better package for the price (OSSC Pro is coming out, but that's probably going to be a $500 deal), but having the ability to use composite for the consoles that just just can't/won't mod is definitely going to be helpful.

Thats why I wanted it, I dont want to mod my consoles. Its 95% going to be N64, but its still a nice catch all for all my consoles that don't have hdmi

[Sumez | 2,930]

On 2/12/2021 at 4:18 PM, BortLicensePlate said:

Thats why I wanted it, I dont want to mod my consoles

There are really no consoles earlier than PS2 that output component video natively though? You pretty much need the RGB input if you want a decent upscaled picture.

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

20 hours ago, Sumez said:

There are really no consoles earlier than PS2 that output component video natively though? You pretty much need the RGB input if you want a decent upscaled picture.

Yeah I'm using S-Video with my N64. There's also the HD retrovision cables that convert RGB to component

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

22 hours ago, Sumez said:

There are really no consoles earlier than PS2 that output component video natively though? You pretty much need the RGB input if you want a decent upscaled picture.

I guess that entirely depends on how badly someone needs bleeding sharp edges to their pixels versus the game being upscaled properly, looking like it did at the lower resolution, but working at the proper scale (and speed) of a modern display.  Sure, if I modded the consoles I have, I could end up with a sharper picture that's arguably better looking, but seriously, how much better looking will it really be?  I don't have any sort of OCD and am not any sort of graphics snob, so not nearly so much that it's worth several hundred dollars for the relatively minute amount of difference that I'll see sitting across the room from the TV playing my video games.

[Sumez | 2,930]

12 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

I don't have any sort of OCD and am not any sort of graphics snob, so not nearly so much that it's worth several hundred dollars for the relatively minute amount of difference that I'll see sitting across the room from the TV playing my video games.

I'm not a graphics snob either, but "a relatively minute amount of difference" just isn't true. And if you're upscaling something to a huge HD TV, that difference is only going to get bigger.

This entire thread is about spending $100+ on an upscaler. That's by far the priciest part of the equation. Why would you spend that money on an upscaler if you didn't care about the image?

No one said anything about modding any consoles.

[Estil | 1,261]

15 hours ago, BortLicensePlate said:

Yeah I'm using S-Video with my N64. There's also the HD retrovision cables that convert RGB to component

I use S-video on everything except NES top loader (composite or red/white/yellow) and all the HDMI ready consoles (PS3, PS4, WiiU).  On most retro consoles S-video is the best it can take and also the best most CRT's in the US can take except for the really upscale ones that could do component if you're lucky.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

1 hour ago, Sumez said:

I'm not a graphics snob either, but "a relatively minute amount of difference" just isn't true. And if you're upscaling something to a huge HD TV, that difference is only going to get bigger.

This entire thread is about spending $100+ on an upscaler. That's by far the priciest part of the equation. Why would you spend that money on an upscaler if you didn't care about the image?

No one said anything about modding any consoles.

You implied both the first sentence and the last with the statement "You pretty much need the RGB input if you want a decent upscaled picture."

One can get a decent picture upscaling composite.  Done it myself, seen it with my own eyes.  Quality-wise, it looks as good as it ever did on a CRT, minus the nostalgia and/or preference for things like scanlines or the slight curve of the screen versus modern displays.  I've seen enough comparison videos from well known sources to recognize that there's room for improvement in that equation, but also intelligent and humble enough to realize that these games are only capable of looking so good, regardless of what you do to them, and that unless (again) you've got some sort of OCD about having the highest quality or are an outright snob about graphics, there's no need to grab the purest signal from each console and scale them as sharply as possible.  From 15-20+ feet away, looking at a 1080p/4K display, the differences between razor sharp and decent ("good enough") blur quite quickly.

Spending $100 or so (some more, some less) for an upscaler for use across multiple systems will primarily, first and foremost, allow those systems to be playable, without lag, on a modern TV/display.  For the vast majority of modern TVs/displays, an external upscaler won't make the images look any better than what the systems will already look like hooked up directly to those screens--but it will definitely take out a significant (and detrimental/detectable) amount of input lag caused by the inefficiency of the upscalers built into those displays.

I'm not saying at all that anyone shouldn't care about their picture or shouldn't use the output that will allow for the system to look its best.  But your statement about how RGB, arguably the highest natively available signal produced by most systems (almost always only accessible via modification), is "pretty much [necessary]" to get a "decent" picture from each system comes from someplace well outside of normal perception of these games and the hardware they're played on.

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

15 hours ago, BortLicensePlate said:

Yeah I'm using S-Video with my N64. There's also the HD retrovision cables that convert RGB to component

The few times I've hooked mine up, that's what I've used as well, although it's what I use with my SNES every time.  I've found that it seems like a lot of care needs to be taken in selecting appropriate cables, as not all are created equal, and there are plenty of $3-5 options available that will technically push the signal across, but have it end up so noisy that any gain over composite is totally lost.  I recall a lot of people talking about how you basically had to have Monster branded cables in order to get a truly great signal, but lots of people refuting this and picking up a decent set of MadCatz cables for mine which have done the job admirably since.

It's been 4-5 years since I invested in cables, so I'm no longer in the loop regarding who makes good, affordable (non-boutique) cables these days, but it's definitely something to take into consideration, lest folks end up with a worse signal than the slight boost they're specifically purchasing for.

[Deadeye | 1,595]

@darkchylde28 there might be a little bit of confusion between where you and @Sumezare coming from.  Sumez, being in Europe, has had RGB available for many consoles out of the box for him.  Where we have, mostly been limited to S-video and later component.  I might be wrong, but just an observation. 

That said, seeing RGB vs component vs S-Video, I am okay with S-video.  Between component and RGB, I see little difference in quality (excluding color differences).  If I can get S-Video stock out of a console, like PS-1, without modding, IMO I am not going to spring for the costs.  

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

11 minutes ago, Deadeye said:

@darkchylde28 there might be a little bit of confusion between where you and @Sumezare coming from.  Sumez, being in Europe, has had RGB available for many consoles out of the box for him.  Where we have, mostly been limited to S-video and later component.  I might be wrong, but just an observation. 

That said, seeing RGB vs component vs S-Video, I am okay with S-video.  Between component and RGB, I see little difference in quality (excluding color differences).  If I can get S-Video stock out of a console, like PS-1, without modding, IMO I am not going to spring for the costs.  

@Deadeye, I didn't realize, so I guess that's possible, but I still disagree with the general idea that you must have RGB output to upscale before it's decent.  With what you said in mind, perhaps what @Sumez meant might better be stated as you must have non-RF ouput before a decent upscale can happen?  I'd agree to that point easily, although the day may come when someone introduces an RF-capable upscaler which changes my (everybody's?) mind.

That being said, yeah, I'll also opt for S-video (or composite) when available, but honestly, noise-free composite (no constant static, color fluctuations, etc.) run through a good quality upscaler (all of the RetroTink line seem to do an admirable job at a great price point) can (and often does) look 95%+ as good as noise-free S-video.  As a result, I'll note what visible differences there are but can't complain given that the games play as smoothly and responsively as they did on the screens of yesterday without me having to maintain the space, hookups, etc., for a separate TV/display to do so.

As far as the differences between RGB and component...yeah, you've really got to spend a lot of time nitpicking to show any real differences between the two to the point where it's absolutely not worth it.

[Deadeye | 1,595]

Depending on what consoles you had and your goals, you could look at the break down of cost to go RGB and decide.  For us not in Europe and not having the scart cable for each console nor TVs that accept RGB (minus PVMs), that is a cost factor.  I play on CRTs and HD TVs, so I prefer component as that is compatible with all my TVs and scalers.  

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

Yeah RGB is a hard sell for me in North America when you have to invest in the proper cables, a good cable is like 30 bucks or more isnt it? For all my consoles that adds up. I just wanted the easiest solution with what I had

[Sumez | 2,930]

1 hour ago, darkchylde28 said:

You implied both the first sentence and the last with the statement "You pretty much need the RGB input if you want a decent upscaled picture."

Outside of the NES you can get native RGB output from pretty much any popular console without needing to alter it in any way. If you're going to spend $120 on an external upscaler, why not buy one that can handle that input? It's not going to be any more work, and it's not going to be any more expensive.

The difference from composite isn't one of "graphics snobs", it's night and day.

1 hour ago, Deadeye said:

Where we have, mostly been limited to S-video and later component.  I might be wrong, but just an observation. 

That's not true at all. RGB output is just as common for the North American market. SNES, Genesis, PlayStation 1 and 2, Saturn, Xbox, Master System, and even TurboGrafx-16 using the expansion port. In fact you can get RGB out of a North American N64, but not a European one. Only the GameCube has RGB output in Europe but not in America, but those guys got 480p progressive video via component instead, so I think they won out.

38 minutes ago, BortLicensePlate said:

Yeah RGB is a hard sell for me in North America when you have to invest in the proper cables, a good cable is like 30 bucks or more isnt it? For all my consoles that adds up. I just wanted the easiest solution with what I had

Maybe if you're a crazy videophile you'll get super expensive cables. I don't think I ever paid more than $5 for a video cable.
S-Video or Component are pretty much just as good though, so whatever works best for you. I just don't think it makes sense to invest in a quality upscaler and then settle for composite.  

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

11 hours ago, Sumez said:

Maybe if you're a crazy videophile you'll get super expensive cables. I don't think I ever paid more than $5 for a video cable.
S-Video or Component are pretty much just as good though, so whatever works best for you. I just don't think it makes sense to invest in a quality upscaler and then settle for composite.  

From my research the quality of cable does make a difference. I think if I was upgrading my setup to RGB I would want to spring for as high quality as I can at that point. But even if RGB does exist in North America, it was never commonly used. So finding the cables and splitters and all that isn't that easy here. And yes, composite isn't ideal. I figured with the retrotink I could use S Video and Component and be pretty satisfied

[BlackVega | 583]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:41 PM, Sumez said:

(OSSC Pro is coming out, but that's probably going to be a $500 deal)

OSSC Pro announcement also kinda baffles me:

https://videogameperfection.com/2020/01/18/ossc-pro-is-coming/

"OSSC PRO is coming!! New high end CPU!! Super Duper New HD XD 3D 4094032p Hyper Scaling!! Even more than and better than ever everything!! This device will have everything you all asked for and beyond!!!"

More IO: "OSSC Pro will feature RGB SCART, D-Sub 15 (VGA) and component video inputs, just like the existing OSSC." <== no composite or S-video inputs

..............................................................................................

Edited February 17, 2021 by VegaVegas