WATA shouldn't call a CIB for just the Box, Booklet and Game

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

On 12/31/2020 at 4:07 PM, Dr. Morbis said:

Yeah, slabbing a CIB for yourself is fine, but as a buyer, I'm never buying a CIB unless I can inspect the contents first (both for quality and what's present/absent).  Buying a graded CIB is essentially buying a CIB blind, without knowing anything other than what you can surmise from a visual inspection of the box.  As a result, buying a graded CIB from WATA is only useful if you are literally a speculator.

In all other grading fields I've seen, either you can't see all the contents because the graded item is NIB, or, if the item is complete but opened/used, each content is displayed clearly within the slab.  What WATA is doing just doesn't make any sense to me at all.

My question is, have any of you purchased a slabbed CIB (not new/sealed), and if so, what was your reasoning or purpose for doing so?  I really am curious...

I have a CIB Punisher that I submitted for grading.

I wanted to test my own personal biases against the new industry standard and I was mostly right except for the manuals.

They really REALLY scrutinize manual condition despite it only counting for 20% of the grade.

[Tanooki | 4,932]

On 12/28/2020 at 3:35 PM, Code Monkey said:

Then you get into the same trouble the television companies are in.

High Definition

Ultra High Definition

Super Ultra High Definition.

What's next? Super Duper Ultra High Definition For Real

Odds are to save on confusion the industry will just contract Capcom to make up the name sake going forward.

 

Street Fighter 2, Champion Edition, Turbo Edition, Hyper Fighting Edition, Super, Super Turbo X, Super Turbo X Revival HD Remix.  If anyone can make a nonsensically longer string of bullshit to make it sound better than the last, they're the grandmasters.

 

On topic though kind of, always thought of CIB as Cart(Card) Instructions, and Box.)  For awhile I thought CIB made sense, but more so it just didn't as it's a relative term and well the I was always capitalized too.   On my gaming list I type out I'll do CIB+Map, CIB+poster, etc if it was one of those few games that had an added bonus piece of something which wasn't some generic ad or promo insert.

[Link | 2,709]

Some of us agree that C is “complete”, and recognize CIB as a term that is used across many other collecting hobbies that have different kinds of components. Other people don’t care and use the backronym because it makes an easy checklist, and there are three and only three (unique) components that every game used to come with. Having those standard pieces is good enough for them.

I have railed against the latter practice as well, but ultimately it’s way too late to put the cat back in the bag. People who care just need to clarify when making deals. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Link

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

7 hours ago, Jayleonis said:

This isn’t true at all. In fact the opposite. Your buying a cib knowing that the contents have been inspected and scrutinized by a professional. It’s often hard to tell what condition any of the contents are just from pictures. Buying a wata graded cib gives you a fairly strong and accurate idea of the exact condition of what’s inside the box. 
 

Wata puts the manual and cart grade on the back of the wata sticker in case you didn’t know. I believe they also list other game specific  inserts as well. In addition you will have access to pre grading photos at some point I’d they develop the app they claim to be. 

Haha, okay then!  Have you ever in your life bought something for hundreds or thousands of dollars sight unseen because someone else said to you, "hey, trust me, it's in really nice shape..."  If so, more power to ya, but I'm going to side with the other 99.9999% of consumers in this world who like to see what they're paying for.

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Haha, okay then!  Have you ever in your life bought something for hundreds or thousands of dollars sight unseen because someone else said to you, "hey, trust me, it's in really nice shape..."  If so, more power to ya, but I'm going to side with the other 99.9999% of consumers in this world who like to see what they're paying for.

I would completely trust Wata's grades on contents. If it shows a 9.4, then I wouldn't even need to look at it. Even though they've made some major mistakes in the past.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

Just now, Code Monkey said:

I would completely trust Wata's grades on contents. If it shows a 9.4, then I wouldn't even need to look at it. Even though they've made some major mistakes in the past.

I've only got a few CIB's left to go for a complete set, so having to buy slabbed CIB's is probably not going to be a bridge I'll ever have to cross, but if I did buy one, it would be to crack it open so I could insert the cart into my NES library and display the box on the shelf, and it would be a real bummer if anything at all other than the box had some sort of wear that the dude at WATA had completely missed...

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

Just now, Dr. Morbis said:

I've only got a few CIB's left to go for a complete set, so having to buy slabbed CIB's is probably not going to be a bridge I'll ever have to cross, but if I did buy one, it would be to crack it open so I could insert the cart into my NES library and display the box on the shelf, and it would be a real bummer if anything at all other than the box had some sort of wear that the dude at WATA had completely missed...

Completely missed? I literally laughed out loud when I read that.......they go over each item with a magnifying glass, they don't just glance at it and toss it down the line. Seriously........an actual magnifying glass..........how could they miss something?

[Gloves | 11,776]

Just now, Code Monkey said:

Completely missed? I literally laughed out loud when I read that.......they go over each item with a magnifying glass, they don't just glance at it and toss it down the line. Seriously........an actual magnifying glass..........how could they miss something?

They have human eyes.

And they've been shown to have missed things in the past plenty.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

41 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Completely missed? I literally laughed out loud when I read that.......they go over each item with a magnifying glass, they don't just glance at it and toss it down the line. Seriously........an actual magnifying glass..........how could they miss something?

My bad; I didn't know they were infallible.  I was under the assumption that they were human like every one else...

Look, I get that you're pretty invested into WATA since you just spent almost a thousand dollars to get a bunch of shit graded, but, c'mon, man!  Three years ago these guys were just regular NA forum members like you and I until a really huge opportunity for a can't-miss money-making scheme popped into one of their little heads...

Edited January 2, 2021 by Dr. Morbis

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

My bad; I didn't know they were infallible.  I was under the assumption that they were human like every one else...

Look, I get that you're pretty invested into WATA since you just spend almost a thousand dollars to get a bunch of shit graded, but, c'mon, man!  Three years ago these guys were just regular NA forum members like you and I until a really huge opportunity for a can't-miss money-making schemed popped into one of their little heads...

True but these guys have always been more knowledgeable about these things way before any of us. Braveheart knows more about variants than I would have ever hoped I could ever learn, Bronty is more familiar with sealed games than anyone I've virtually known and Kenneth knows more about grade flaws than anyone I've talked to. This isn't since they started the company, they've had this knowledge for years.

I guess I could accept they make mistakes but with all of their grading problems, I've never seen them miss any obvious flaw. I've only heard of them putting the wrong games in the wrong cases or something stupid like that.

[Gloves | 11,776]

6 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I guess I could accept they make mistakes but with all of their grading problems, I've never seen them miss any obvious flaw. I've only heard of them putting the wrong games in the wrong cases or something stupid like that.

That seems like a pretty obvious flaw lmao. You certainly don't need a magnifying glass to see that.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

8 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

True but these guys have always been more knowledgeable about these things way before any of us. Braveheart knows more about variants than I would have ever hoped I could ever learn, Bronty is more familiar with sealed games than anyone I've virtually known and Kenneth knows more about grade flaws than anyone I've talked to. This isn't since they started the company, they've had this knowledge for years.

I guess I could accept they make mistakes but with all of their grading problems, I've never seen them miss any obvious flaw. I've only heard of them putting the wrong games in the wrong cases or something stupid like that.

yeah, well the gist of what I'm saying is that all people from all walks of life make mistakes because we're all human.  As a result, I personally will strive to avoid purchasing slabbed CIB's because I like to see what I'm buying, especially when I'm buying a collector's item that I'm personally OCD about the condition of.  But hey man, as the millennial saying goes: you do you!

[Gloves | 11,776]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

yeah, well the gist of what I'm saying is that all people from all walks of life make mistakes because we're all human.  As a result, I personally will strive to avoid purchasing slabbed CIB's because I like to see what I'm buying, especially when I'm buying a collector's item that I'm personally OCD about the condition of.  But hey man, as the millennial saying goes: you do you!

I'm still personally pretty anti-slabbing CIBs. There are those of us who collect CIB because we like to play the games, and I for one like mine to be in excellent condition. More and more excellent condition copies getting slabbed cuz everyone wants to play babies first collectible investment is starting to get on my nerves. 

The worst part is that normally sealed copy prices wouldn't impact CIB prices so heavily. But with both being slabbable (lol slabbable) it puts them all in kinda the same basket, so now people will advertise their Cibs as being good grading prospects, blurring the line between CIB and sealed. Fuck that, man. 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

3 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I'm still personally pretty anti-slabbing CIBs. There are those of us who collect CIB because we like to play the games, and I for one like mine to be in excellent condition. More and more excellent condition copies getting slabbed cuz everyone wants to play babies first collectible investment is starting to get on my nerves. 

The worst part is that normally sealed copy prices wouldn't impact CIB prices so heavily. But with both being slabbable (lol slabbable) it puts them all in kinda the same basket, so now people will advertise their Cibs as being good grading prospects, blurring the line between CIB and sealed. Fuck that, man. 

Yeah, the two things that bug me currently about slabbed CIB's are, first, I can't just see slabbed game on eBay anymore and know they're sealed and base my decision of whether to investigate further on that.  Now, if it's WATA and a game I want to buy, I have to look closely and see if the game is CIB or sealed.

But the bigger issue for me is that I want to make sure every NES CIB I own has exactly the right contents with it.  I've got over 20 years experience with this hobby and there are a couple other guys (mostly on this forum) also invested as deeply as I am into getting it right, so to see a WATA slabbed CIB just say "includes poster," or whatever, is totally unacceptable to me; I would expect that every single item listed would include the code for that item on the printout, just like the NES Sealed Contents List, and that's just for me; other people have taken CIB collecting even further and are actively recording date codes on individual items now.  How much of this information is provided on a slabbed CIB from WATA?  Just stating "includes poster" or something like that is not nearly good enough.  And, even if they did start printing all that info on the front of the slab, that's just more possibilities for mistakes.  The thread I'm running for Sealed contents submissions has mistakes all the time that I have to seek rectification on, and these are all smart guys who care about what they're doing! 

So TLDR: nothing beats being able to inspect an item with your own eyes...

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

21 minutes ago, Gloves said:

The worst part is that normally sealed copy prices wouldn't impact CIB prices so heavily. But with both being slabbable (lol slabbable) it puts them all in kinda the same basket, so now people will advertise their Cibs as being good grading prospects, blurring the line between CIB and sealed. Fuck that, man. 

And yeah, seeing a game up for thousands of dollars on eBay and then looking closely, only to find out it's not sealed, just some random slabbed CIB is definitely getting more and more frustrating.  Your CIB Color a Dinosaur is not worth the same as a sealed one just because you paid WATA to put it in an identical slab!!!!!

Edited January 2, 2021 by Dr. Morbis

[Gulag Joe | 582]

4 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

True but these guys have always been more knowledgeable about these things way before any of us. Braveheart knows more about variants than I would have ever hoped I could ever learn, Bronty is more familiar with sealed games than anyone I've virtually known and Kenneth knows more about grade flaws than anyone I've talked to. This isn't since they started the company, they've had this knowledge for years.

I guess I could accept they make mistakes but with all of their grading problems, I've never seen them miss any obvious flaw. I've only heard of them putting the wrong games in the wrong cases or something stupid like that.

Wata graded a cut off hangtab Moonwalker 9.4. They grade resealed games with only a "3rd party seal" note on the back of the box, resulting in many ignorant buyers spending thousands on a sealed game they sadly believe is genuine. These people are appraisers and their opinion should only be taken with a grain of salt. It's ok for people to want a second or third opinion, especially if an appraiser gave someone a thumbs up on a game that has a portion of the box missing. Humans are fallable and the folks at wata certainly don't wear capes and save the world at night.

[Jayleonis | 16]

7 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Haha, okay then!  Have you ever in your life bought something for hundreds or thousands of dollars sight unseen because someone else said to you, "hey, trust me, it's in really nice shape..."  If so, more power to ya, but I'm going to side with the other 99.9999% of consumers in this world who like to see what they're paying for.

Yes I have and so does everyone. This happens all the time in life. You trust professionals when you don’t have the knowledge, experience, or ability to physically see something. You trust the mechanic when he says parts under your hood need replacing. Doctors when they give you a diagnosis etc  

Sealed grading also implies your trusting the grading company. How do you know that the contents are inside and that it wasn’t a fake resealed box?

Your argument main argument seems to be that they are human and make mistakes. That’s true but they don’t make mistakes often enough to completely throw out their judgement and expertise. 
 

Regardless of my input or your opinion, the fact is the market currently disagrees with you and has for a long time. Comic book grading where you can’t see the inside page condition or artwork has long been successful. Sealed grading and cib grading have taken off so much so that the market is large enough for 2 main players, one of which has so many orders currently they had to put a hold on taking in further revenue to satisfy the demand. 

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

3 hours ago, Jayleonis said:

Your argument main argument seems to be that they are human and make mistakes. That’s true but they don’t make mistakes often enough to completely throw out their judgement and expertise.

My issue isn't just the possibility of mistakes.   In my second last post above, I alluded to my issue with CIB's needing to have the proper contents, but let me clarify:

You say you "trust" the grading company; I would ask, in what capacity?  Before WATA, all you had to trust a grading company to do was accurately grade your sealed/new game.  Now with WATA grading CIB's, a gigantic can of worms has been opened.  If I send them a pristine Flinstones 2 with all inserts, but the Taito Wave poster is -2, will they know that's not correct?  Will they care?  Will they grade it anyway and take my money or will they act as an "authority" on CIB games and refuse to grade the item because it is an inaccurate CIB?  Likewise, if I send in a 3-screw Balloon Fight with a hangtab box, how will they respond?  What if I send in a CIB Rad Racer with an oval seal box and the black variant of the manual?  How will they respond?  What if I send in an Overlord, but the back of the cart has been swapped out for a standard one?  Do you see what I'm getting at?  Are they an authority on authentic CIB NES games or are they just guns for hire who will grade anything and everything you send them?

The sense I get is that WATA decided to grade CIB's and other loose items because it's just damn good business sense: there's way more of that stuff out there than sealed games, so it opens up their potential market infinitely.  Whereas VGA, when they came along, at least they had some pedigree being an off-shoot of an already established grading company in another collecting field, and more importantly, they had standards: you only sent them sealed games; if a game wasn't brand new, they wouldn't grade it.  I understand WATA is a business and this was essentially an untapped market, but come on!  SMB's suddenly selling for six figures overnight looks really fishy, and if this hobby were the NYSE, there'd be so many lawyers investigating for insider trading and other malpractices that this new grading company would have already been shut down long before 2021.  Just saying...

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

3 hours ago, Dr. Morbis said:

If I send them a pristine Flinstones 2 with all inserts, but the Taito Wave poster is -2, will they know that's not correct?  Will they care?  Will they grade it anyway and take my money or will they act as an "authority" on CIB games and refuse to grade the item because it is an inaccurate CIB?  Likewise, if I send in a 3-screw Balloon Fight with a hangtab box, how will they respond?  What if I send in a CIB Rad Racer with an oval seal box and the black variant of the manual?  How will they respond?  What if I send in an Overlord, but the back of the cart has been swapped out for a standard one?  Do you see what I'm getting at?  Are they an authority on authentic CIB NES games or are they just guns for hire who will grade anything and everything you send them?

They will mark it as IMP for improperly married parts. Lots of people send in a game expecting to get a high grade, only to have the grade replaced with a big fat IMP on the front, totally devaluing it. Trust me, they know which hangtab boxes come with screw variants, way more than I do.

The main reason I chose to specifically grade the games I just sent was only for historical significance, it wasn't for any sort of investment at all. I truly believe I have the best condition copies of some matte seal test market NES games in the world and I would hate to accidentally knock them off the shelf and destroy history. There aren't enough of these out there to take the risk so I want them to confirm the grade and protect them in acrylic so I can be more responsible for what I have. That's what finally triggered me to grade.

[Gloves | 11,776]

I mean, to be fair, a ding on a Nintendo game box isn't exactly going to "destroy history". 

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

14 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I mean, to be fair, a ding on a Nintendo game box isn't exactly going to "destroy history". 

I disagree. I'm always amazed at the people that have the 9.8 examples of certain games, there may only be 1 or 2 in existence. I'm happy to see something has been preserved so well.

[Gloves | 11,776]

29 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I disagree. I'm always amazed at the people that have the 9.8 examples of certain games, there may only be 1 or 2 in existence. I'm happy to see something has been preserved so well.

It's cool that things exist in pristine condition, but their current condition has no bearing whatsoever on the history of the item.

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

Ummm... VGA has a history of grading CIB games and products. 

I believe that @1upped used to have such examples in her collection. And the ones I found do certify that the grader believes the items needed to receive this grade are unused. Among other things tied to their disclaimer.

Plus factories have a history of goofing up. So there is no means of knowing if every sealed game that has already been graded is 100% complete. Hence why I am neutral on how WataGames handles CIBs at this time.

As with what @Gloves has stated, I agree that history should be preserved as-is. I also love the idea of having a complete "9.8 A++" collection tied to what I like. But are cases where a flaw is worth preserving. Just as long as a UV light is not needed to see those flaws. But again, I don't need to see those types of flaws. 

[Gloves | 11,776]

1 minute ago, FenrirZero said:

Ummm... VGA has a history of grading CIB games and products. 

I believe that @1upped used to have such examples in her collection. And the ones I found do certify that the grader believes the items needed to receive this grade are unused. Among other things tied to their disclaimer.

Plus factories have a history of goofing up. So there is no means of knowing if every sealed game that has already been graded is 100% complete. Hence why I am neutral on how WataGames handles CIBs at this time.

As with what @Gloves has stated, I agree that history should be preserved as-is. I also love the idea of having a complete "9.8 A++" collection tied to what I like. But are cases where a flaw is worth preserving. Just as long as a UV light is not needed to see those flaws. But again, I don't need to see those types of flaws. 

 

With regard to grading CIBs, I don't personally care who is doing it, I don't hate one company or the other for doing it. I just don't like that it's done at all.

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

Just now, Gloves said:

 

With regard to grading CIBs, I don't personally care who is doing it, I don't hate one company or the other for doing it. I just don't like that it's done at all.

Seeing how most sellers treat anything graded, I totally agree with the way you feel! But there are cases where CIB is the only option. So when things like that do happen I am fine with it as long as nothing is being exploited.

Now grading digital games? I'm totally against that.