International Politics / Current Events Thread

[fcgamer | 4,718]

10 hours ago, avatar! said:

Here's some reading about Taiwan

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-34729538

There is disagreement and confusion about what Taiwan is, and even what it should be called.

China regards Taiwan as a breakaway province which it has vowed to retake, by force if necessary. But Taiwan's leaders say it is clearly much more than a province, arguing that it is a sovereign state.

No offence, but I see a bit of a bias in the narrative presented there, and the bolded black section sums it up nicely:

"China regards Taiwan as a breakaway province..."

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life, tbh. After WWII, the Japanese gave the island of Taiwan back to the original China. Civil War broke out later and the party that had been historically ruling China, Chiang Kai Sheck's KMT (Kuomintang), well they then lost some battles to Map Zedong's commies and they took the government and fled to the island of Taiwan. The commies then took over the lions share of the land, i.e. mainland China, though they never managed to take control of Taiwan island.

So at no time in history, ever, did the People's Republic of China (PRC , commie China) ever have control of the island, ever. Period. That's historically verified. After Japanese occupation, Kaishek's Republic of China had it, before the Japanese, it was a variety of other rulers. Furthermore, let's not forget that the civil war never even had an armistice or peace treaty, IIRC.

So how in God's green earth can an island be considered a break away province, if it were never, under any circumstances under any time, governed by the government that claims they "broke away"? If we want to be pedantic about it, it's actually more historically accurate to say that Mao's commie China is a breakaway province of Taiwan / ROC

[avatar! | 1,804]

12 hours ago, phart010 said:

Who gets to decide what is a universal human right and what is not? What if some countries don’t agree with what other countries have concluded? Who is right

Who gets to decide who is President of the United States? What if some states don't agree with what other states have concluded?

Hopefully you see the analogy.

AND, the Declaration of Human Rights was drafted in 1947 with representatives of Australia, Chile, France, Lebanon, the Soviet Union, United Kingdom, and yes China as well. Oh, and ALL members of the UN have ratified the Declaration in various forms, and some argue it is now basic international law. While there is no military intervention if countries don't abide by the Universal Rights, but that still doesn't make them less universal.

Edited November 21, 2020 by avatar!

[avatar! | 1,804]

9 hours ago, fcgamer said:

So how in God's green earth can an island be considered a break away province, if it were never, under any circumstances under any time, governed by the government that claims they "broke away"? If we want to be pedantic about it, it's actually more historically accurate to say that Mao's commie China is a breakaway province of Taiwan / ROC

I think you make a fair point which is shared by many Taiwanese. As you know of course, China still claims Tawain "broke away"

[phart010 | 1,705]

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

Who gets to decide who is President of the United States? What if some states don't agree with what other states have concluded?

Hopefully you see the analogy.

AND, the Declaration of Human Rights was drafted in 1947 with representatives of Australia, Chile, France, Lebanon, the Soviet Union, United Kingdom, and yes China as well. Oh, and ALL members of the UN have ratified the Declaration in various forms, and some argue it is now basic international law. While there is no military intervention if countries don't abide by the Universal Rights, but that still doesn't make them less universal.

It’s just a piece of paper. Everyone signs it cause they want to be part of the club. At the end of the day, each country is gonna do what they want to do without much regard for this document (including our US government).

[avatar! | 1,804]

On 11/21/2020 at 6:58 PM, phart010 said:

It’s just a piece of paper. Everyone signs it cause they want to be part of the club. At the end of the day, each country is gonna do what they want to do without much regard for this document (including our US government).

By that token, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence are "just a piece of paper".

No, I think it's more than paper. Although I agree that governments will violate what they agreed upon, that is sure. But I still think it's much more than just paper.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by avatar!

[phart010 | 1,705]

30 minutes ago, avatar! said:

By that token, the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence are "just a piece of paper".

No, I think it's more than paper. Although I agree that governments will violate what they agreed upon, that is sure. But I still think it's much more than just paper.

Well since all these other countries have signed onto the international declaration of human rights, then rest assured, you can go visit them all, exercise you freedoms to the extent declared and you’ll be safe

Edited November 22, 2020 by phart010

[avatar! | 1,804]

38 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Well since all these other countries have signed onto the international declaration of human rights, then rest assured, you can go visit them all, exercise you freedoms to the extent declared and you’ll be safe

That was never the point of this discussion.

Everyone knows certain countries don't give a shite about human rights, regardless of them signing agreements, which is as I said much earlier why I don't ever plan to visit nor patronize them. But, I definitely have no qualms about criticizing them, and they do indeed deserve condemnation.

Edited November 22, 2020 by avatar!

[phart010 | 1,705]

49 minutes ago, avatar! said:

That was never the point of this discussion.

Everyone knows certain countries don't give a shite about human rights, regardless of them signing agreements, which is as I said much earlier why I don't ever plan to visit nor patronize them. But, I definitely have no qualms about criticizing them, and they do indeed deserve condemnation.

Ok. Since we’ve established that all governments are willing to violate the rights defined on that piece of paper without shame (including the USA) and will go as far as to publicly defend their own actions in courts, we have to admit the declaration of human rights is just a piece of paper. That said, other countries are not as bad as you’d assume. And the Western countries are not actually as “just” or “free” as they’d have you believe. 

Every country has its own benefits and issues. I’d argue that many less democratic countries that fail in freedom of speech kick our butt when it comes to offering cost efficient or even free higher education, free or affordable, medical care, peaceful police, low tax burden, etc. 

Not everything defined in the document is 100% compatible with the customs of every culture in the world. In that way, it’s a kind of a Western slanted document. But lack of some things defined in there doesn’t necessarily leave people in those countries feeling deprived, things sometimes just work differently in a way that some “rights” aren’t really be necessary to exercise.
 

We have gotten to a point where we have kind of asserted to the rest of the world that Western style democracy is the ideal model of government. Western style democracy has only existed for maybe 250 years in America and in other countries for even less time. That is a long time, but not long enough to prove that it has stood the test of time. We are actually starting to see some changes in our democratic system in our generation, and who knows if the system will survive it.

 In reality, every form of government just an experiment. Everyone tries a little bit of this and a little bit of that to see what works and what doesn’t. If there truly was a “perfect form of government” everyone would scrap their current system and do that instead. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by phart010

[avatar! | 1,804]

9 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Ok. Since we’ve established that all governments are willing to violate the rights defined on that piece of paper without shame (including the USA) and will go as far as to publicly defend their own actions in courts, we have to admit the declaration of human rights is just a piece of paper. That said, other countries are not as bad as you’d assume. And the Western countries are not actually as “just” or “free” as they’d have you believe. 

Every country has its own benefits and issues. I’d argue that many less democratic countries that fail in freedom of speech kick our butt when it comes to offering cost efficient or even free higher education, free or affordable, medical care, peaceful police, low tax burden, etc. 

Not everything defined in the document is 100% compatible with the customs of every culture in the world. In that way, it’s a kind of a Western slanted document. But lack of some things defined in there doesn’t necessarily leave people in those countries feeling deprived, things sometimes just work differently in a way that some “rights” aren’t really be necessary to exercise.
 

We have gotten to a point where we have kind of asserted to the rest of the world that Western style democracy is the ideal model of government. Western style democracy has only existed for maybe 250 years in America and in other countries for even less time. That is a long time, but not long enough to prove that it has stood the test of time. We are actually starting to see some changes in our democratic system in our generation, and who knows if the system will survive it.

 In reality, every form of government just an experiment. Everyone tries a little bit of this and a little bit of that to see what works and what doesn’t. If there truly was a “perfect form of government” everyone would scrap their current system and do that instead. 

I really disagree with your statements.

Since we’ve established that all governments are willing to violate the rights defined on that piece of paper

I don't recall us "establishing" that at all. Case in point, people calling Donald Trump all kinds of things, in public and private, and they don't "disappear" as is often the case in China. So no.

I’d argue that many less democratic countries that fail in freedom of speech kick our butt when it comes to offering cost efficient or even free higher education

That is 100% a non sequitur, and all not true by the way. For example, college is heavily subsidized in numerous countries that have freedom of speech such as England, Australia, Denmark, France, Italy, Israel... list goes on. And again, that's really a distraction from the argument.

Not everything defined in the document is 100% compatible with the customs of every culture in the world.

That's not an excuse. It's the responsibility of a government that agrees there are basic universal rights to enforce those rights and show that it's not acceptable for a group within the country to try to circumnavigate those laws by claiming tradition, religion, whatever.

We have gotten to a point where we have kind of asserted to the rest of the world that Western style democracy is the ideal model of government.

Did you notice I mentioned that among the drafters of the Article of Basic Human Rights were the USSR and China? It's not about "Western style democracy" it's about basic rights, which should be adhered to regardless of the government. What you point out is that in a Western democracy you have more basic rights.

Western style democracy has only existed for maybe 250 years in America and in other countries for even less time. That is a long time, but not long enough to prove that it has stood the test of time.

Again, not relevant to the discussion here. In fact, I would say once more that's just deflecting the topic.

By the way, if you look at countries which care the most about rights, you'll find that those countries also have the happiest citizens. By the way, the USA is high on the list of most free, BUT not in the top 10. The USA is around 15, and again, not surprisingly when measuring happiness it's right around the 15th happiest country. We could do better, but that's not excuse to dismiss countries which are greatly abusing basic rights, such as China.

 

[fcgamer | 4,718]

12 hours ago, avatar! said:

Who gets to decide who is President of the United States? What if some states don't agree with what other states have concluded?

Hopefully you see the analogy.

AND, the Declaration of Human Rights was drafted in 1947 with representatives of Australia, Chile, France, Lebanon, the Soviet Union, United Kingdom, and yes China as well. Oh, and ALL members of the UN have ratified the Declaration in various forms, and some argue it is now basic international law. While there is no military intervention if countries don't abide by the Universal Rights, but that still doesn't make them less universal.

Republic of China (Chiang's KMT government, aka Taiwan) is what signed it, mainland China did not.

[fcgamer | 4,718]

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

We have gotten to a point where we have kind of asserted to the rest of the world that Western style democracy is the ideal model of government.

Did you notice I mentioned that among the drafters of the Article of Basic Human Rights were the USSR and China? It's not about "Western style democracy" it's about basic rights, which should be adhered to regardless of the government. What you point out is that in a Western democracy you have more basic rights.

 

 

Again, it was "good" China, aka the Republic of China (Taiwan) that had helped draft this, not commie China.

That being said, I won't let my biases take over so much to ignore the fact that Chiang Kai Sheck was a dictator, and that a democracy did not exist at that time here, and I can't forget the white terror; however, things did open up and become a successful democratic country ultimately.

[phart010 | 1,705]

3 hours ago, avatar! said:

I really disagree with your statements.

Since we’ve established that all governments are willing to violate the rights defined on that piece of paper

I don't recall us "establishing" that at all. Case in point, people calling Donald Trump all kinds of things, in public and private, and they don't "disappear" as is often the case in China. So no.

I’d argue that many less democratic countries that fail in freedom of speech kick our butt when it comes to offering cost efficient or even free higher education

That is 100% a non sequitur, and all not true by the way. For example, college is heavily subsidized in numerous countries that have freedom of speech such as England, Australia, Denmark, France, Italy, Israel... list goes on. And again, that's really a distraction from the argument.

Not everything defined in the document is 100% compatible with the customs of every culture in the world.

That's not an excuse. It's the responsibility of a government that agrees there are basic universal rights to enforce those rights and show that it's not acceptable for a group within the country to try to circumnavigate those laws by claiming tradition, religion, whatever.

We have gotten to a point where we have kind of asserted to the rest of the world that Western style democracy is the ideal model of government.

Did you notice I mentioned that among the drafters of the Article of Basic Human Rights were the USSR and China? It's not about "Western style democracy" it's about basic rights, which should be adhered to regardless of the government. What you point out is that in a Western democracy you have more basic rights.

Western style democracy has only existed for maybe 250 years in America and in other countries for even less time. That is a long time, but not long enough to prove that it has stood the test of time.

Again, not relevant to the discussion here. In fact, I would say once more that's just deflecting the topic.

By the way, if you look at countries which care the most about rights, you'll find that those countries also have the happiest citizens. By the way, the USA is high on the list of most free, BUT not in the top 10. The USA is around 15, and again, not surprisingly when measuring happiness it's right around the 15th happiest country. We could do better, but that's not excuse to dismiss countries which are greatly abusing basic rights, such as China.

 

I wrote a VERY in depth reply to this, spent about an hour on it and the website did not properly transition when I submitted. Sorry I dont have the appetite to rewrite it. Have a good night

[avatar! | 1,804]

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/11/spains-government-declares-war-on-the-spanish-language/

As a Spaniard, it is difficult for me to explain to people outside my country what is happening here without sounding dire. But in many cities in Spain, children will not be able to study primarily in Spanish. In Catalonia, mathematics, science, and philosophy will continue to be taught in Catalan, as they have been for years, hindering the education of those children who don’t speak it. But this time, parents won’t be able to demand, via the justice system, that their Spanish-speaking child be educated in Spanish, which is a direct violation of the right to freedom of education as set forth in the Spanish Constitution.

An opinion piece. Anyone from Spain who can comment on this? I imagine if here in the USA public schools started teaching in Spanish rather than English there would be "outrage". Of course, I imagine the same "outrage" would happen in France and numerous other countries. But of course, I don't know the whole story nor the details.

[Brickman | 3,978]

China at it again with its attack on Australia with false and misleading propaganda. The sooner Western governments move away from China the better. I will gladly pay more for all goods sourced from other places but China if it means we stop funding these bullies.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-30/china-fake-image-australian-war-crimes-afghanistan-tensions/12934538

[Californication | 1,477]

33 minutes ago, Shmup said:

China at it again with its attack on Australia with false and misleading propaganda. The sooner Western governments move away from China the better. I will gladly pay more for all goods sourced from other places but China if it means we stop funding these bullies.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-30/china-fake-image-australian-war-crimes-afghanistan-tensions/12934538

I am not familiar with anyone of the relationships between these countries. But just reading from the article, it says " China and Russia in the wake of the release of the Brerton report which found Australian special forces committed atlease 39 unlawful killings during the war un Afghanistan."

So my thoughts are 1. I feel like the word attack is a little hyperbolic. 2. Shouldn't every country be giving Australia a hard time if they were committing "unlawful killings?" (Does that mean murder, it sounds like murder.) 

[Brickman | 3,978]

20 minutes ago, Californication said:

I am not familiar with anyone of the relationships between these countries. But just reading from the article, it says " China and Russia in the wake of the release of the Brerton report which found Australian special forces committed atlease 39 unlawful killings during the war un Afghanistan."

So my thoughts are 1. I feel like the word attack is a little hyperbolic. 2. Shouldn't every country be giving Australia a hard time if they were committing "unlawful killings?" (Does that mean murder, it sounds like murder.) 

Probably best if you read into the situation before commenting then (not meant to sound attacking or harsh).

It has been discovered that Australian SAS soldiers have unlawfully killed civilians during the Afghan war which is indeed something that should be condemned and these soldiers are currently going to trial for it. The government and the army have condemned the actions and the government has freely admitted that these are war crimes that will be dealt with.

It is an attack on Australia because the images are false and propaganda. There has been no evidence that SAS soldiers killed kids. It spreads false information and also sets to divide people and countries. Which is exactly China's intention with their games. It's also not good politics to have a foreign minister post on Twitter this image. Just as it wouldn't be OK for a foreign minister of another country to post on Twitter propaganda against things that happen in the US.

 

Edit: just added a comment about first sentence. No intention to sound attacking towards you.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Shmup

[Californication | 1,477]

16 minutes ago, Shmup said:

Probably best if you read into the situation before commenting then.

It has been discovered that Australian SAS soldiers have unlawfully killed civilians during the Afghan war which is indeed something that should be condemned and these soldiers are currently going to trial for it. The government and the army have condemned the actions and the government has freely admitted that these are war crimes that will be dealt with.

It is an attack on Australia because the images are false and propaganda. There has been no evidence that SAS soldiers killed kids. It spreads false information and also sets to divide people and countries. Which is exactly China's intention with their games. It's also not good politics to have a foreign minister post on Twitter this image. Just as it wouldn't be OK for a foreign minister of another country to post on Twitter propaganda against things that happen in the US.

Ya, it's bad diplomacy/politics. 

I guess I am missing something. I've heard people say we should try and step away from China because they inter millions of Muslims or we should step away from China because they are encroaching on Vietnamese land and slowly trying to gain control of areas of the country. This is the first time I've hears someone say we should step away from China because of a fake tweet. 

By that logic the U.S. has attacked most of the world with our president.Are we going to have World War 3?

Edited November 30, 2020 by Californication

[Brickman | 3,978]

3 minutes ago, Californication said:

Ya, it's bad diplomacy/politics. 

I guess I am missing something. I've heard people say we should try and step away from China because they inter millions of Muslims or we should step away from China because they are encroaching on Vietnamese land and slowly trying to gain control of areas of the country. This is the first time I've hears someone say we should step away from China because of a fake tweet. 

By that logic the U.S. has attacked most of the world with our president.Are we going to have World War 3?

I think the majority of the world don't take Trump's Tweets serious though. He barely actioned anything he ever rambled on about. They were a great source of laughter over here.

Whereas China are making Tweets and actioning them. They are currently restraining or putting huge tariffs on our exports to them which are actually meant to be part of our free trade agreement with China.

My comment about stepping away from China was more in relation to what you listed, I didn't make that point clear. But I think spreading propaganda Tweets is just another thing to add to the list of China's long list.

[avatar! | 1,804]

8 minutes ago, Shmup said:

I think the majority of the world don't take Trump's Tweets serious though. He barely actioned anything he ever rambled on about. They were a great source of laughter over here.

Whereas China are making Tweets and actioning them. They are currently restraining or putting huge tariffs on our exports to them which are actually meant to be part of our free trade agreement with China.

My comment about stepping away from China was more in relation to what you listed, I didn't make that point clear. But I think spreading propaganda Tweets is just another thing to add to the list of China's long list.

I agree that it would be better for the world as a whole to move away from China. I was reading an article on how for years the West assumed that China would become more democratic and hold ideals similar to Western democracies as it gained power and money. That was certainly a stupid and incorrect assumption. The West's diplomacy with China was a failure. Now, we all pay for it. Currently, between persecuting Muslim Uighurs, breaking their agreement and silencing (in many ways) Hong Kongers, supporting North Korea, threatening an invasion with Taiwan, threatening a war with the USA, predatory lending, unlawful (under international law) business practices, and numerous other crimes, China has also decided to tax Australian wine! Why? because China doesn't like it that Australia wants an investigation into the origin of Covid-19.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/29/a-year-after-wuhan-alarm-china-seeks-to-change-covid-origin-story

[Brickman | 3,978]

31 minutes ago, avatar! said:

I agree that it would be better for the world as a whole to move away from China. I was reading an article on how for years the West assumed that China would become more democratic and hold ideals similar to Western democracies as it gained power and money. That was certainly a stupid and incorrect assumption. The West's diplomacy with China was a failure. Now, we all pay for it. Currently, between persecuting Muslim Uighurs, breaking their agreement and silencing (in many ways) Hong Kongers, supporting North Korea, threatening an invasion with Taiwan, threatening a war with the USA, predatory lending, unlawful (under international law) business practices, and numerous other crimes, China has also decided to tax Australian wine! Why? because China doesn't like it that Australia wants an investigation into the origin of Covid-19.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/29/a-year-after-wuhan-alarm-china-seeks-to-change-covid-origin-story

Yeah it would have been nice if China had kept their traditions but moved towards ideals that are accepted in the West and even parts of Asia such as South Korea and Japan. Now we see the true intentions of China and they have us over a barrel because so much manufacturing is done there now.

That article doesn't surprise me, China are always trying to re write history. This is why Australia wanted an independent review of the origin of the virus and now we're paying for it by attacking our exports and propaganda, funny how they aren't touching our iron ore though. I'd love to see our government put a huge markup on that export.

The wine tariff is an absolute joke. They claim we're dumping cheap wine on them, when it's actually some of our best quality wine. The irony is they dump all their $2 junk on our shores, I'd love to see a 200% tariff on that stuff.

[avatar! | 1,804]

4 minutes ago, Shmup said:

Yeah it would have been nice if China had kept their traditions but moved towards ideals that are accepted in the West and even parts of Asia such as South Korea and Japan. Now we see the true intentions of China and they have us over a barrel because so much manufacturing is done there now.

That article doesn't surprise me, China are always trying to re write history. This is why Australia wanted an independent review of the origin of the virus and now we're paying for it by attacking our exports and propaganda, funny how they aren't touching our iron ore though. I'd love to see our government put a huge markup on that export.

The wine tariff is an absolute joke. They claim we're dumping cheap wine on them, when it's actually some of our best quality wine. The irony is they dump all their $2 junk on our shores, I'd love to see a 200% tariff on that stuff.

I rather wonder if China is emboldened because Trump is leaving? I really don't know, but it's possible. I think they see Biden as easier to manage or at least more "traditional" on trade, but again who really knows.

[avatar! | 1,804]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2020-12-01/china-s-warning-to-the-world-video

Interesting that China is strengthening ties with Japan. I remember years ago working with some Chinese graduate students back when I was an undergrad. They really hated Japan! Granted, that's a small sample and not statistically reliable, but from what I recall reading that was a popular opinion. I have a feeling Chinese influence is overall going to decrease as they push away major economies like the USA, India, Europe, etc.

[avatar! | 1,804]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-researchers/chinese-researchers-quit-u-s-agents-target-biden-team-u-s-officials-idUSKBN28C3E8

The official said the researchers Demers referred to, who U.S. authorities believed were affiliated with China’s People’s Liberation Army, fled the United States after the FBI conducted interviews in more than 20 cities and the State Department closed China’s Houston consulate in July.

“Only the Chinese have the resources and ability and will” to engage in the breadth of foreign influence activity that U.S. agencies have seen in recent years, Demers said.

[avatar! | 1,804]

Arab delegates attending a Hanukkah ceremony at the Western Wall in Jerusalem.

A few years ago this would have been doubtful at best, and a couple of decades ago people would never have believed it! There is hope for peace!

 

[avatar! | 1,804]

"11 women, 5 men ... The City of Paris was fined 90,000 euros because too many female directors were appointed," Mayor Anne Hidalgo said on Twitter on Tuesday..."So yes, to promote and one day achieve parity, we must accelerate the tempo and ensure that in the appointments, there are more women than men," she said.

Parity: the state or condition of being equal

Hmmm...