Definition of a "Complete Set"?

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

2 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

So when does your book come out anyway.

I gave up on the coffee table book a while ago. I scope-creeped it out of existence. It went from just playing all 677+91 games for the "set" to BEATING and REVIEWING them, then it started to go into adding in PAL exclusives, Sachen, Gluk, and HES....then Famicom exclusives that are English speaker only playable.......then I wanted to add interviews from prominent collectors and at one point the book was inflated to an estimated 1200+ pages to complete at which point I was thinking of turning it into a "Mega-Zine" like ZooBooks (meaning all the issues are complete, but come separate in their own bite sized magazines)

I still do want to make my mini checklist book though. But I keep finding variants at least once a month....

The idea for this one is to be 5" x 7" just like your average NES box. Matte paper so you can write in it with a pencil too! I want it to have the following sections:

 

USA Library

• Licensed Games

• Unlicensed Games

  • Tengen

  • Camerica

  • AVE

  • Bunch, Color Dreams & Wisdom Tree

  • The Rest

• Other Stuff

  • Hardware Packages & Bundles

  • First Party Accessories

  • Third Party Accessories

  • Nintendo World Championships

  • Service Center Material

PAL Library

• PAL A

• PAL B

• Unlicensed

  • Codemasters (UK)

  • HES (Australia)

  • Gluk (Spain)

  • Sachen (Global)

Variant Hunters

• Licensed Variants

  • Major Art Changes

  • Hangtabs

  • 5-Screws & 3-Screws

• Unlicensed Variants

  • Blue & Black Color Dreams Cartridges

  • Notched & Square AVE Cartridges

  • Other Variants

• PAL Variants

  • PAL Licensed Exclusives

  • Name Changes

  • Art Changes

  • Publisher Changes

  • Small Boxes

  • Classic Serie(s)

Other Lists

• Rarest Games

• Games by Publisher

• Games by Genre

• Games Requiring Accessories

 

[DefaultGen | 5,399]

I know you gave up on the book. I just bring it up every so often to remind you one Kickstarter backer is still out there hoping to meet that funding goal.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

12 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

I know you gave up on the book. I just bring it up every so often to remind you one Kickstarter backer is still out there hoping to meet that funding goal.

Only thing I'll ever work on is that checklist book, and only if there's demand for it :V

For now, I'm content with my regular ol' Phleo Lists.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

@ThePhleo: I don't know about all Sachen games, but at least some of them are NTSC format.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

@ThePhleo: I don't know about all Sachen games, but at least some of them are NTSC format.

True! But I like to keep them as their own thing for now until I get some solid proof that they were ACTUALLY distributed in the U.S....That doesn't mean I'm empty handed though!

 

I've found plenty of trademark information on Sachen in the United States Patent and Trademark Office. They've had a presence in the USA since December 1990! Well within the NES lifespan!

Sachen™ is USPTO 74121397. Filed 12/7/90

Commin™ is USPTO 74358303. Filed 2/12/93

GoldenKey™ is USPTO 74345785. Filed 1/5/93

Q-Boy™ is USPTO 75789614. Filed 9/1/99

Q-Gun™ is USPTO 75789613. Filed 9/1/99

I've also found flyers that are packed in with their games in both English/Spanish, and English/German.

There are also magazine ads in Argentina and Taiwan.

I've seen a brochure in Swedish.

There are special boxes only released in Italy, distributed by a company "GRA. DI. SRL." in "Corso Plebisciti, 19 20129 Milano"

Also, I've got a couple sealed Dancing Blocks that came from Poland and even have a Polish manual for a Sachen game.

Also, on their GoldenKey product they have flags for the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and the United States (erroneously used for the British flag). Underneath these flags are all little blurbs that explain the product and they all translate to the following:

As you might know, none of the Nintendo games sold in America (NTSC) and Europe (PAL) can be exchangeable used on NTSC or PAL console. Thanks to Golden Key, now all these cartridges become universal.

I've seen quite a few sellers in recent years selling the GoldenKey in America, and I've also seen them listed frequently in Italy, Germany, and the Netherlands.

Edit: Also, Milmar (Brazil) licensed some games from Sachen as well.

Edited November 10, 2020 by ThePhleo

[fcgamer | 4,719]

5 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

True! But I like to keep them as their own thing for now until I get some solid proof that they were ACTUALLY distributed in the U.S....That doesn't mean I'm empty handed though!

 

I've found plenty of trademark information on Sachen in the United States Patent and Trademark Office. They've had a presence in the USA since December 1990! Well within the NES lifespan!

Sachen™ is USPTO 74121397. Filed 12/7/90

Commin™ is USPTO 74358303. Filed 2/12/93

GoldenKey™ is USPTO 74345785. Filed 1/5/93

Q-Boy™ is USPTO 75789614. Filed 9/1/99

Q-Gun™ is USPTO 75789613. Filed 9/1/99

I've also found flyers that are packed in with their games in both English/Spanish, and English/German.

There are also magazine ads in Argentina and Taiwan.

I've seen a brochure in Swedish.

There are special boxes only released in Italy, distributed by a company "GRA. DI. SRL." in "Corso Plebisciti, 19 20129 Milano"

Also, I've got a couple sealed Dancing Blocks that came from Poland and even have a Polish manual for a Sachen game.

Also, on their GoldenKey product they have flags for the Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and the United States (erroneously used for the British flag). Underneath these flags are all little blurbs that explain the product and they all translate to the following:

As you might know, none of the Nintendo games sold in America (NTSC) and Europe (PAL) can be exchangeable used on NTSC or PAL console. Thanks to Golden Key, now all these cartridges become universal.

I've seen quite a few sellers in recent years selling the GoldenKey in America, and I've also seen them listed frequently in Italy, Germany, and the Netherlands.

Right, but some of this needs clarification I think:

The Taiwan adverts (and full magazine previews / reviews are for the Famicom versions, which all aside from Huge Insect were sold here without a doubt, as I myself can confirm, as well as others. I'd venture a guess that the same is true for the Argentina ads, as it was 60 bit nation, and other Taiwanense companies did business down there. I actually know a Taiwanense game shop owner who had gone there on business back in the day.

Regarding Poland, I know some Sachen games had been sold and found there, sold in NES-sized boxes , but inside were the Famicom versions. With your Dancing Blocks, can you please confirm either way? I just ask because again, Poland is arguably a 60 pin nation.

I've seen evidence some of their NES stuff was released in Sweden and Finland. Similarly, I posted an advert years back on NA with a number to an export line, suggesting strongly that Taiwanense communities were mainly the ones importing and distributing the Sachen games , like ABCs and what not.

I guess my problem with labelling the games as "PAL" is because some actually are just famicom boards with adaptors, which would be 100% NTSC, though I've heard that some Sachen games might be optimised for pal format.

Pal and NTSC are formats, not regions.

Anyways though, really love to see all this research you've been doing @ThePhleo, really enjoy seeing what you do and also respect you and your opinions

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

11 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Regarding Poland, I know some Sachen games had been sold and found there, sold in NES-sized boxes , but inside were the Famicom versions. With your Dancing Blocks, can you please confirm either way? I just ask because again, Poland is arguably a 60 pin nation.

Anyways though, really love to see all this research you've been doing @ThePhleo, really enjoy seeing what you do and also respect you and your opinions

Can confirm 60-pin was in all the opened boxes I received from this seller. Can not confirm on the sealed ones since I want to make a video before I open them but I'm 99.5% sure they're 60-pin.

Sachen is my guilty pleasure for the NES. So many people just ignore it because there's hardly any information on them, but I think that's why I love them...my holy grail is to actually have any original artwork of any of the so called "Original Box Art" boxes.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

I think we both share that holy grail goal Keep hoping to stumble upon something chucked out randomly here

[FireHazard51 | 2,043]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:36 PM, ThePhleo said:

 

graded from VGA, this is CERTIFIED hazardous waste.

I don't know why it irks me so much but fuck them for tacking on $5 for shipping on a fucking $1+ million dollar sale.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

On 11/10/2020 at 5:40 AM, ThePhleo said:

Only thing I'll ever work on is that checklist book, and only if there's demand for it :V

For now, I'm content with my regular ol' Phleo Lists.

I know I essentially did the same with my book, after it started to hit around 2000 pages, full colour, as I was looking for printing options. And that was after drastically reducing the scope too.

We definitely need to team up at some point to do something epic.

[JVOSS | 1,762]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

I know I essentially did the same with my book, after it started to hit around 2000 pages, full colour, as I was looking for printing options. And that was after drastically reducing the scope too.

We definitely need to team up at some point to do something epic.

for what system???

[fcgamer | 4,719]

30 minutes ago, JVOSS said:

for what system???

Famicom

[JVOSS | 1,762]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Famicom

wow that many games.  are they all Taiwan or other regions?

[fcgamer | 4,719]

31 minutes ago, JVOSS said:

wow that many games.  are they all Taiwan or other regions?

Yeah it was going to be all regions , then I scaled it back to just bootlegs and unlicensed stuff, but it was still huge.

[Alder | 243]

The true "complete set" is to own every game ever printed. Like, literally every single copy of every game in existence - no one else can own any games. Everything else is just a subset  

But seriously, I've sort of stopped thinking in terms of full sets and started thinking in terms of subsets that hold meaning to me. That subset might align with what someone else considers a full set, or it might not. It's an unfortunate reality that there are so many unknowns out there regarding what was released (all unique printings/variants) and when.

[Psychopat | 74]

I always say there's no Full Set Police and there shouldn't be one. you basically define what is your full set using some parameters that you decide... I personally collect what i call a "Gamer's Full Set" the question I ask myself is "what do I need to play everything?". So I don't need variants and stuff like that.

On the NES that means I would substitute Stadium Events for World Class Track Meet for obvious reasons... On the TG16, Magical Chase would be mandatory. I also don't collect collector's editions unless: the only edition is the collector's edition OR it came with an accessory that can be used to actually play the game.

That means that in the set that I'm currently trying to achieve (Ps1) I won't get Rayman 2 Beachball edition, but I got Arc The Lad Collection CIB, that also mean that I bought the Bass Landing bundle with the fishing rod.

Those are my own parameters... obviously there's common sense... I mean if you don't get for example Chip and Dale on the NES and you're calling that a full set you're straight up cheating!

Edited October 26, 2021 by Psychopat

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

On 10/26/2021 at 7:28 AM, Psychopat said:

 I mean if you don't get for example Stadium Events on the NES and you're calling that a full set you're straight up cheating!

Fixed that for you...

[RH | 4,895]

On 2/16/2021 at 9:24 PM, FireHazard51 said:

I don't know why it irks me so much but fuck them for tacking on $5 for shipping on a fucking $1+ million dollar sale.

I'd agree, but how would they know it would auction at that price?!   I mean, aren't there a TON of those out there?  I would have valued it at about $20.  After all, it was from a trash pile! 

[avatar! | 1,807]

On 2/16/2021 at 9:24 PM, FireHazard51 said:

I don't know why it irks me so much but fuck them for tacking on $5 for shipping on a fucking $1+ million dollar sale.

Is it confirmed it actually sold for that amount? It would honestly not surprise me if this is just one (or a couple) of people playing pranks, or perhaps worse, purposely trying to drive up the market price.

[Psychopat | 74]

On 2/24/2022 at 12:32 AM, Dr. Morbis said:

Fixed that for you...

Let's agree to disagree... however I would never lie about me having a full set with variant

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

How about this? Categorize Stadium Events as a "limited edition" title, even if Bandai did not intend to have it be such.

This way it gets to be part of the list of games that were limited in number, both intentionally and unintentionally, for the sake of not having it be part of the full licensed Nintendo set. But still have it be part of the full Bandai game set since it is a Bandai title, and possibly give those who solely focus on their titles a reason to hunt one down.

I mean it is no different than somebody avoiding the need to buy first print variants when it comes to any Nintendo Switch titles. Limited print runs are both their thing and bonuses for those who want to add them. 

And I am saying that in part of the challenges I am currently facing when it comes to my current collecting goal. 

[fcgamer | 4,719]

3 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

How about this? Categorize Stadium Events as a "limited edition" title, even if Bandai did not intend to have it be such.

This way it gets to be part of the list of games that were limited in number, both intentionally and unintentionally, for the sake of not having it be part of the full licensed Nintendo set. But still have it be part of the full Bandai game set since it is a Bandai title, and possibly give those who solely focus on their titles a reason to hunt one down.

I mean it is no different than somebody avoiding the need to buy first print variants when it comes to any Nintendo Switch titles. Limited print runs are both their thing and bonuses for those who want to add them. 

And I am saying that in part of the challenges I am currently facing when it comes to my current collecting goal. 

I'm not sure I could personally do this, but I do think it's an approach that would suit me better than any of the current options (aside from SE being on the regular list).

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

It's a publisher variant with a name change.  Therefore SE is a separate title completely from World Class Track Meet.  We have two examples of publisher variants without a name change that people still count separately - Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and Pac-Man.  Why?  Because they are from different publishers.  Nintendo didn't just put out the exact same game and call it a day, they went to the effort to rename it and change a few sprites in game.  That puts it in a unique class that has zero justification for being left off a full retail set.  Nintendo still acknowledged it's existence years after in the official "Pak Source" guide they put out back in the day, so it was never pulled from the market per se, it just ceased to be restocked.  And arguing that it's a variant is silly...the first version is the original, and anything after is the variant.  Thus the case can be made to exclude WCTM far easier than the exclusion of SE.  It was not available only through special channels like the NWC carts.  The Limited Edition argument is a new one, but even that doesn't hold weight to me.  Sure, people don't always go for the Day 1 Switch games, but those are a) designed to be limited, which SE wasn't, and b) are typically identical to later versions at a ROM level.  In both cases, Stadium Events doesn't fit the definition.  I'd rather people stop arguing for reasons that it shouldn't count and just accept that they will simply never own a full fucking set.  Period.

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

Ummm... @the_wizard_666? Please note that the facts I found are tied what I have learned over the past decade. And not me expecting to see you change the way you collect. 

Limited editions: The Test Market era for the NES is quite literally the earliest example of any video game company doing a "Limited Edition" run. With Stadium Events following that example, being the Family Fitness Fun bundle (i.e. Stadium Events)

PLEASE READ: "The History of Stadium Events" by D.S. Cohen

That being said, it gives reasons why it was not a mass-market game before Nintendo changed it into one that was. And that Japan, West Germany, and Sweden are reasons why Nintendo recognizes it.

Even if they say that is not the case, it not changing there is something they cannot ignore. 

In all cases I would have gladly brought up this, and other examples, when it comes to Limited Editions being part of the NES era. While also noting that the NA version of the game can also constitute as a First Print if an alternative explanation is needed.

Which has me go back to what I said. And only said because it is one of those games that does not, categorically, fit into a standard full NA licensed NES run. But is still one some need to get.

Edited March 13, 2022 by FenrirZero

[the_wizard_666 | 1,325]

16 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

Ummm... @the_wizard_666? Please note that the facts I found are tied what I have learned over the past decade. And not me expecting to see you change the way you collect. 

Limited editions: The Test Market era for the NES is quite literally the earliest example of any video game company doing a "Limited Edition" run. With Stadium Events following that example, being the Family Fitness Fun bundle (i.e. Stadium Events)

PLEASE READ: "The History of Stadium Events" by D.S. Cohen

That being said, it gives reasons why it was not a mass-market game before Nintendo changed it into one that was. And that Japan, West Germany, and Sweden are reasons why Nintendo recognizes it.

Even if they say that is not the case, it not changing there is something they cannot ignore. 

In all cases I would have gladly brought up this, and other examples, when it comes to Limited Editions being part of the NES era. While also noting that the NA version of the game can also constitute as a First Print if an alternative explanation is needed.

Which has me go back to what I said. And only said because it is one of those games that does not, categorically, fit into a standard full NA licensed NES run. But is still one some need to get.

First point, the "facts" shown in the article you linked are largely hearsay, and most have been debunked throughout the years on multiple occasions.  And again, the fact that Nintendo themselves kept it not only on their official checklist, but in their Pak Source guide as well.  The licensed Tengen games are not on that list, nor are they in Pak Source, while SE and WCTM both are.  That alone shows that Nintendo still considers Stadium Events as an official full retail release, while the Tengen carts are removed despite having been licensed at one point. Below is the back half of the index from Pak Source (printed in 1990), showing evidence - while Gauntlet is too early in the alphabet, neither Pac-Man nor RBI Baseball appear, while both SE and WCTM are there:

Additionally, Nintendo Power was exclusive to North America, meaning Pak Source only had games that were commercially released in North America.  Also of note is the actual descriptions of both games (conveniently on the same page:

So Nintendo actually acknowledged that the game is identical, so that people didn't go out and buy old stock of what was essentially the same game.  And honestly, since they never sold the Power Pad without WCTM, it also serves as a way for anyone who had the old FFF pad (bundled with Athletic World) knew that if they wanted WCTM they could just buy SE and have the exact same game.  Note that it says nothing about being discontinued, although odds are new stock was never shipped out once the deal was struck with Nintendo.  But even discarding all of that, there is no evidence outside of speculation that there was a) a smaller production run, and b) a recall.  And the reality is likely that neither happened.  The 2000 copies was likely accurate, as while Nintendo had a minimum number of units per order (iirc it was around 10000, but I could be mistaken there), there's nothing that said that order couldn't have been filled incrementally, meaning that they could send out the first batch to stores and restock after sales went through. The odds are that any further stock was suspended as part of the deal with Nintendo to license the game to them.  There is no real evidence of an outright recall, though many retailers may have sent back unsold stock for refunds, thus reducing the number of copies available.

In conclusion, unless someone provides actual evidence of a limited run (sales numbers, production numbers, etc, from the source), or that a recall ever happened, then there is simply no evidence to have it not count toward a full set, licensed or otherwise, and indeed, there is more evidence for it to be included rather than excluded.  I have no issue with people deciding that the price tag is too high, but simply say it's a set minus SE.  But to say you have a full set because SE doesn't count without providing hard evidence is flat out asinine.