Definition of a "Complete Set"?

[avatar! | 1,810]

Moving the discussion from the Limited Run Games thread to here:

The question has been what constitutes a complete NES collection? I think Code Monkey answered this very well:

If you're collecting a full set of X-Men comics, then yes, it is required.

That's the problem, people try and assign a limited definition to a broad term. A full set is literally an entire set of everything that ever existed, there is no way anyone could ever possibly collect that .However, people try and assign some smaller subset to have this definition which is just weird and false. Since everyone assigns a different definition to "full set," there's no way to agree if a game should belong because you all have different definitions.

All you can really do is look at the literal words of "full set" and look at what the actual words themselves mean. "Full" and "Set" put together is literally everything from the history of time.

If you ever want to stop arguing about this, then stop being lazy and using the proper terms.

Full Set = everything

Full Nintendo set = every game ever released from Nintendo as a company

Full Nintendo NES set = every game released by Nintendo specifically for the NES

Full NES set = all NES games released by every manufacturer with no time limit. If it exists, it's included, don't try and cry your way out of literal definitions.

Full Nintendo NES Licensed Retail Set = all Nintendo released games specifically for the NES, released at retail. This is the set I am going for, as this doesn't include the 1 of 1 Nintendo Campus Challenge which is technically part of the licensed set because it is a licensed Nintendo NES game.

So unless you specify which sub-set you're going for, you'll never know if a certain game belongs. If you want to be more specific about your particular collecting goal, then be more specific when you refer to it.

And when you talk about licensed games, software contains multiple different licenses from various copyrights. The company iam8bit obtains a legal license from Capcom for their releases but not from Nintendo, so these are technically licensed but not Nintendo licensed.

Feel free to contribute!

 

[MiamiSlice | 3,089]

Common usage defines meaning though. If 99% of people use “full set” to mean “full set of NES games licensed by Nintendo” then that’s what it means. Unless you enjoy getting into arguments with everyone who believes it to mean that. 

[avatar! | 1,810]

3 minutes ago, MiamiSlice said:

Common usage defines meaning though. If 99% of people use “full set” to mean “full set of NES games licensed by Nintendo” then that’s what it means. Unless you enjoy getting into arguments with everyone who believes it to mean that. 

Hmmm, well, I might argue that more often people misdefine things, and then assume their interpretation is correct. I see that all the time with students. I would argue much of the same thing is happening here. I know you say" 99% of people", but I would argue, by the arguments we've had, that clearly 99% of the people do NOT agree on what "full set" actually means. I think Code Monkey really hit the nail on the head, and at the very least, a collector should be able to justify and rectify their response by saying something like "I meant licensed retail games by Nintendo during the NES's lifetime." An answer like that alleviates any confusion. If someone told me they had a full set of NES games, to my mind that does indeed mean EVERY single NES game ever officially released, regardless of whether it had Nintendo's seal, which again was really done in an arguably unethical way to manipulate the industry. 

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

If you can imagine a tangible addition to whatever you consider complete, no matter how minor or exclusive then you don’t have an absolutely complete set...you just have a set you’re satisfied with labeling complete under your own standard.

In some instances that completeness matches what everyone else thinks is complete as well.

Any Phleo can make a list, it’s up to you too adopt it.

[avatar! | 1,810]

8 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

If you can imagine a tangible addition to whatever you consider complete, no matter how minor or exclusive then you don’t have an absolutely complete set...you just have a set you’re satisfied with labeling complete under your own standard.

I totally agree. That's the thing about collectibles, it's basically impossible to have a "complete set". One of the most popular games right now, Magic the Gathering, is by definition collectible and while you can complete in principle a set of the original "Alpha" or "Beta" etc sets, you'll NEVER have the complete set! For example there was one card, the 1996 World Champion card, which has exactly 1 card in existence! That is right, just one. Oh, and no more can be made, because the printing plate and also "test cards" were purposely destroyed. So it's literally impossible for you to have a complete set of MtG cards. Likewise it's impossible, or close to, to have a complete set of NES games - but enjoy what you do have, absolutely!

Edited October 16, 2020 by avatar!

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

Subsets are a nice and convenient way to build lists, and then just flat out exclusions are fine as well.

Since were all NES heads here, I think I’ll use it as an example. We have the following “subsets” that a majority of people agree on. There are more, but these are the big ones.

REGION: NTSC, PAL A, PAL B, Famicom, Comboy, Brazil, etc.

PINS: 60 / 72

CLASS: Licensed, Unlicensed, Test, Competition, Pirate, Aftermarket/Homebrew, Prototype/Review

PACKAGING: Hangtab, REV-A, Seal of Quality, Screw Count, -1/2/3

COMPLETION: Loose, Boxed, Cart+Box+Manual, Complete, Sealed, Graded

So I can say I have a complete USA set, but it can mean I only have all the loose carts under that subset, but I can still add the boxes, manuals, inserts, and variants of everything therein.

I can also say I have a Complete in Box PAL-B set, but then I’m missing a couple PAL-A games and I may or may not count ALL of the PAL-B subregions meaning if I skip (forgot which country exactly) the one country with Deja Vu then I don’t have a real PAL-B set by definition

Also...

The only thing I dislike more than people who say “Stadium Events isnt required for a set” are people who say “You can’t just exclude SE from the set”  

[Tulpa | 3,492]

Sticking with NES:

The "full set" is everything.

Every licensed, unlicensed, competition, bootleg, prototype, and homebrew. If it fits in an NES and boots, it's in the set. No one can ever have that set, as someone could put Pong on a cartridge for themselves and fork that attempt. We also don't know if all the prototypes have been found.

So then it becomes whatever limited definition you have. And it depends on whether variants count on their own or not.

So let's leave variants out and stick to games that roughly have unique code (although even then there are a few exceptions.)

Full set minus homebrews (anything from Solar Wars on) and prototypes (since that is still largely unknown): Everything released prior to the rise of the homebrews. So this is everything in the NA licensed set, the unlicensed set, the two NWC carts, all the Sachens, the Hong Kong Mah Jong, the European exclusives, and probably a few others (Gluk? HES?).

Full North American set: All 677 licensed and the 91 unlicensed (counting Cheetahmen II, and Myriad/Caltron as separate entries. Aladdin Deck Enhancer would include Dizzy the Adventurer on its own, but the others to my knowledge have a standalone cart variant.)

Full NA licensed set: All 677 licensed, the one that's been in vogue as of recent. To me, this is one of the more boring sets.

Stadium Events is in all of these. So pony up.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Tulpa

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

9 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Sticking with NES:

The "full set" is everything.

Every licensed, unlicensed, competition, bootleg, prototype, and homebrew. If it fits in an NES and boots, it's in the set. No one can ever have that set, as someone could put Pong on a cartridge for themselves and fork that attempt. We also don't know if all the prototypes have been found.

So then it becomes whatever limited definition you have. And it depends on whether variants count on their own or not.

So let's leave variants out and stick to games that roughly have unique code (although even then there are a few exceptions.)

Full set minus homebrews (anything from Solar Wars on) and prototypes (since that is still largely unknown): Everything released prior to the rise of the homebrews. So this is everything in the NA licensed set, the unlicensed set, the two NWC carts, all the Sachens, the Hong Kong Mah Jong, the European exclusives, and probably a few others (Gluk? HES?).

Full North American set: All 677 licensed and the 91 unlicensed (counting Cheetahmen II, and Myriad/Caltron as separate entries. Aladdin Deck Enhancer would include Dizzy the Adventurer on its own, but the others to my knowledge have a standalone cart variant.)

Full NA licensed set: All 677 licensed, the one that's been in vogue as of recent. To me, this is one of the more boring sets.

Stadium Events is in all of these. So pony up.

For Europe you also have to argue is probotector actually Contra, or a Contra clone....track and field in Barcelona, action in New York, Corvette ZR-1 challenge, snowboard challenge, Phantom air mission. And about a dozen others.

...

Also, the Aladdin deck enhancer was never actually released, and is a console add on just like the 32X or 64DD...you can’t just throw an Aladdin cart in an NES And expect it to work.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

1 minute ago, ThePhleo said:

Also, the Aladdin deck enhancer was never actually released, and is a console add on just like the 32X or 64DD...you can’t just throw an Aladdin cart in an NES And expect it to work.

That's a good point. Although I still argue it's not really like the other add-ons. The code from all those games would work in an NES if you put them on a flashcart.

[Brickman | 3,983]

18 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

The only thing I dislike more than people who say “Stadium Events isnt required for a set” are people who say “You can’t just exclude SE from the set”

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a NES collector, so don't throw a pitchfork at me haha.

I was under the impression that World Class Track Meet and Stadium Events are the same game and just variants. So couldn't you have either game to make a set? Obviously Stadium Events would be the nicer one to have because of the history behind it.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

2 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

That's a good point. Although I still argue it's not really like the other add-ons. The code from all those games would work in an NES if you put them on a flashcart.

Do they? I thought there was a certain chip in the Aladdin. Maybe that chip is emulated too? Or maybe that chip is just a lockout defeated?

Either way, this is NES only we’re talking about and there’s another hundred or so game libraries that count differently.

For Windows, do games on windows live only count? Are Steam games considered their own library?

On PlayStation, are PSN games different from physical versions?

On Atari 2600, do third party games count even though they were against Ataris wishes to even exist? If so, then why do NES unlicensed games get second class treatment? If not then what the hell do we do with Activision?

What about arcade games? Should a conversion mean that the cabinet itself is a “platform” what about different form factors.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

Just now, Shmup said:

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a NES collector, so don't throw a pitchfork at me haha.

I was under the impression that World Class Track Meet and Stadium Events are the same game and just variants. So couldn't you have either game to make a set? Obviously Stadium Events would be the nicer one to have because of the history behind it.

Stadium Events came first, so if you don't collect variants, feel free to exclude the $4 WCTM.

They do have different title screens, so fit in with my "different code, different game" classification. (That also allows the compilation carts, like SMB/DH or Donkey Kong Classics to count separate from the individual carts.)

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

1 minute ago, Shmup said:

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a NES collector, so don't throw a pitchfork at me haha.

I was under the impression that World Class Track Meet and Stadium Events are the same game and just variants. So couldn't you have either game to make a set? Obviously Stadium Events would be the nicer one to have because of the history behind it.

They’re the same game but not the same title. Subtle difference, massive impact.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

5 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Do they? I thought there was a certain chip in the Aladdin. Maybe that chip is emulated too? Or maybe that chip is just a lockout defeated?

 

It's just the lockout chip override in the Enhancer. It was a way for Camerica to cheap out by not having to include it in every cartridge. That doesn't quite fit my definition of "add on" if it was really taking something away.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Tulpa

[Tulpa | 3,492]

4 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

On Atari 2600, do third party games count even though they were against Ataris wishes to even exist? If so, then why do NES unlicensed games get second class treatment? If not then what the hell do we do with Activision?

Atari* dudes count everything, so...

Yes, unlicensed games should count in at least the North American retail set. People get fixated on the licensed games because ... I don't know, Nintendo?

 

*Of course, that set has like one known copy of Gamma Attack, two known copies of Red Sea Crossing, etc.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Tulpa

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

4 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Atari dudes count everything, so...

Yes, unlicensed games should count in at least the North American retail set. People get fixated on the licensed games because ... I don't know, Nintendo?

I’m not an “Atari” dude, but I do have a small Atari collection. I personally bundle first/second party together and keep them away from the dirty third parties.

Also, from what I see from a lot of big time Atari collectors is that they mostly separate publishers on their shelves, which technically does separate their set into various “sets” ... they just have so many that it all blends in and the only difference is they don’t explicitly call third party games illegitimate like us NES weebs 

[LeatherRebel5150 | 1,056]

1 hour ago, avatar! said:

Hmmm, well, I might argue that more often people misdefine things, and then assume their interpretation is correct. I see that all the time with students. I would argue much of the same thing is happening here. I know you say" 99% of people", but I would argue, by the arguments we've had, that clearly 99% of the people do NOT agree on what "full set" actually means. I think Code Monkey really hit the nail on the head, and at the very least, a collector should be able to justify and rectify their response by saying something like "I meant licensed retail games by Nintendo during the NES's lifetime." An answer like that alleviates any confusion. If someone told me they had a full set of NES games, to my mind that does indeed mean EVERY single NES game ever officially released, regardless of whether it had Nintendo's seal, which again was really done in an arguably unethical way to manipulate the industry. 

Is that not how all language evolves anyway though? Enough people decide to use a word to mean a certain thing correct or not and eventually that becomes the definition. While it may not be 99% of people agree what full set means, enough do. When someone would post on NA that they had accomplished their goal of completing a NES set (I haven't noticed  anyone on here make that kinda post, set collecting seems to be a dying thing anyway) what was your first thought seeing the title of that thread? "Oh this dude has EVERYTHING EVER PRODUCED FOR NES" . No, everyone knew what the poster was talking about. Regardless of whether it should mean, it was known what was meant. It seems really nitpicky to get technical about that. The NES set always meant the licensed set (except to those who like to be contrarian) and I have no reason to change how I refer to it.

11 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

I’m not an “Atari” dude, but I do have a small Atari collection. I personally bundle first/second party together and keep them away from the dirty third parties.

Also, from what I see from a lot of big time Atari collectors is that they mostly separate publishers on their shelves, which technically does separate their set into various “sets” ... they just have so many that it all blends in and the only difference is they don’t explicitly call third party games illegitimate like us NES weebs 

Atari collector's don't really have a equivalent situation. There was no process of being licensed by Atari unless Atari wanted to license a game from you the developer. It was all off the shelf parts so anyone could make something that worked with it. With Nintendo's CIC and by extension license to the key to the CIC, there is a clear distinction what was "supposed to" work with the machine and what wasn't. That's what makes, at the very least, the licensed/unlicensed set easy to define. Unlicensed had to illicitly get around the security, licensed did not. Now how to break up unlicensed into it's own constituent parts is a separate issue. 

[Splain | 2,566]

I'm all for adding the qualifiers (licensed, North American, etc) to your specific set to clearly define it, even if it gets cumbersome. Specificity is more useful than uh, concise-ity.

But aren't new unlicensed games being made all the time by hobbyists? A few new games just got made during VGS Bingo. There's no record of these anywhere, it's impossible to even list them out. We can't say "yeah, unlicensed games belong in The Set as well" when there's actually a specific sub-definition of WHICH unlicensed games you mean. And if there's a console for which there doesn't exist an "official" release, then that set can simply never be completed, or even quantified. But obviously an Atari set means something that is easy for us to agree upon.

Also, is it ok to repurpose the phrase "full set" if an actual literal fullset is literally impossible to achieve? If everyone knows it's not REALLY a fullset, then we can use that term to mean something else, something more practical/possible.

[JVOSS | 1,762]

10 minutes ago, Splain said:

Also, is it ok to repurpose the phrase "full set" if an actual literal fullset is literally impossible to achieve? If everyone knows it's not REALLY a fullset, then we can use that term to mean something else, something more practical/possible.

hum so if your a CIB collector then you will never have a "Full Set" of cib's? or is the word CIB repurposed to mean something else?

[DefaultGen | 5,401]

1 hour ago, ThePhleo said:

On Atari 2600, do third party games count even though they were against Ataris wishes to even exist? If so, then why do NES unlicensed games get second class treatment? If not then what the hell do we do with Activision?

I mean this one is easy, collect Activision games and throw the rest into the garbage, because it’s the others who are second class citizens.

I default to US licensed sets when people say full set (licensed by the company that makes the console). So on many Genesis “full set” lists I’d pull out something like Ishido: The Way of Stones and for something like Atari a full set doesn’t exist unless you define what you mean, although by any realistic definition of full a full set wouldn’t be very possible to collect.

Edited October 16, 2020 by DefaultGen

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

3 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

I mean this one is easy, collect Activision games and throw the rest into the garbage, because it’s the others who are second class citizens.

*sad Parker Brothers & Imagic noises*

...

I mean, technically you can basically throw all the Atari 2600 games in the trash where they literally belong.

Atari themselves didn’t want them and people dig them up and proudly display literal industrial hazardous waste on their shelves.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

 

graded from VGA, this is CERTIFIED hazardous waste.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

45 minutes ago, JVOSS said:

hum so if your a CIB collector then you will never have a "Full Set" of cib's? or is the word CIB repurposed to mean something else?

You can have the full set of everything released CIB (assuming you mean everything worldwide), but it won't be a complete NES set. Even with the licensed stuff, WCTM, SMB/DH and a few others didn't have boxes of their own, unless you count the box that had the entire console. Neither NWC had a box, either, other than the shipping package the gold ones came in.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

33 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

I mean this one is easy, collect Activision games and throw the rest into the garbage, because it’s the others who are second class citizens.

 

 

28 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

*sad Parker Brothers & Imagic noises*

*and CBS Electronics*

Imagic is actually my favorite publisher on the 2600.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

4 hours ago, Tulpa said:

Full North American set: All 677 licensed and the 91 unlicensed (counting Cheetahmen II, and Myriad/Caltron as separate entries. Aladdin Deck Enhancer would include Dizzy the Adventurer on its own, but the others to my knowledge have a standalone cart variant.)

Interestingly, The Fantastic Adventures of Dizzy ADE cart has more stars to collect (250) than the standard gold cart previously released for the NES, which has 100 stars, so it's technically a different game experience and vastly different code.  So I'd say you need at least two ADE carts if you're shooting for all the unique games on the NES.  But if you're already going for one or two out of seven ADE games, why not just pick up all seven?  They're a cheap little curiosity that any NES-head should be interested in to begin with...