Wata & VGA Grading Fails

[Startyde | 175]

4 minutes ago, Chuckbiii said:

Yeah I have had horrible wata response times.  Yes hopefully that gets straightened out.  I think all the garbage CIB grading is bottlenecking the process.  But anyway.....

Here is a pic I received from the guy selling the VGA copies.  Hopefully he doesn’t mind.  The top 2 games are the combat evolved (with the later security seal).  The bottom 2 games have the correct seal.  The game you pictured has the earlier security seal.  The top 2 games with the later security seals were never present in 2001.   They didn’t show up until 2004 at the earliest to my knowledge and are present on everything Xbox 360 and newer.

Oooooh, I see, it's not the presence of the seal but the type. Oooph, looks like a potential VGA mega fail, especially for such a sought after game.

[Chuckbiii | 2]

8 minutes ago, Startyde said:

Oooooh, I see, it's not the presence of the seal but the type. Oooph, looks like a potential VGA mega fail, especially for such a sought after game.

Correct, it’s the seal type that’s the issue.  This is a fail all around.  VGA grading fail, and WATA fail for taking so damn long to get me my game that I may not be able to return based on the item not being authentic, which will really piss me off......

Fails all around!

[jonebone | 1,307]

I'm confused on that one.  If you thought it was a reseal, why would you pay for grading... and then when you got it back as "authentic", why would you tell everyone it's a reseal?

I don't think reseal is the right word, I think "inconclusive" makes more sense.  I assume that Wata noticed the security seal was different and didn't want to risk their brand name on a questionable game.  I assume VGA probably missed this detail and just thought the game was authentic off of the seal type. 

And to be fair, there are a lot of resealed Halos out there that get rejected.  So if it passed the VGA authenticity check, then the wrap is either legit or much better than the typical DVD style reseals that hit market.  The sticker is confusing though.  Maybe this was overstock resealed at factory?  Who knows that the theory would be.

This also isn't the first time two grading companies haven't agreed on something.  I can give a specific example myself on a baseball card.  I bought a Ripken minor league rookie card from a minor league collector, knew it was legit.  Paid about $1k but it was after the grading scandal when apparently too many trimmed cards were being passed as legit.  I sent to PSA and they returned it (and my grading fees) saying card did not meet minimum size requirements.  I had to return it but PSA didn't say fake, they said indeterminable. I told another Cal collector the story, he bought it and sent to BGS (the other big card company).  They graded it an 8.5, the highest graded copy of it on record, and he's got himself a 7 or 8 thousand dollar card now.  I'm still not happy about that one.

Point being, grading companies are just expert opinion and expert opinions can disagree.  Personally, I think Wata did a better job with this game but I'm not sure any one can definitively say it's a reseal.  At best you could say it is a questionable variant that cannot be confirmed or refuted at this point of time. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by jonebone

[Chuckbiii | 2]

1 hour ago, jonebone said:

I'm confused on that one.  If you thought it was a reseal, why would you pay for grading... and then when you got it back as "authentic", why would you tell everyone it's a reseal?

I don't think reseal is the right word, I think "inconclusive" makes more sense.  I assume that Wata noticed the security seal was different and didn't want to risk their brand name on a questionable game.  I assume VGA probably missed this detail and just thought the game was authentic off of the seal type. 

And to be fair, there are a lot of resealed Halos out there that get rejected.  So if it passed the VGA authenticity check, then the wrap is either legit or much better than the typical DVD style reseals that hit market.  The sticker is confusing though.  Maybe this was overstock resealed at factory?  Who knows that the theory would be.

This also isn't the first time two grading companies haven't agreed on something.  I can give a specific example myself on a baseball card.  I bought a Ripken minor league rookie card from a minor league collector, knew it was legit.  Paid about $1k but it was after the grading scandal when apparently too many trimmed cards were being passed as legit.  I sent to PSA and they returned it (and my grading fees) saying card did not meet minimum size requirements.  I had to return it but PSA didn't say fake, they said indeterminable. I told another Cal collector the story, he bought it and sent to BGS (the other big card company).  They graded it an 8.5, the highest graded copy of it on record, and he's got himself a 7 or 8 thousand dollar card now.  I'm still not happy about that one.

Point being, grading companies are just expert opinion and expert opinions can disagree.  Personally, I think Wata did a better job with this game but I'm not sure any one can definitively say it's a reseal.  At best you could say it is a questionable variant that cannot be confirmed or refuted at this point of time. 

I agree 100% with your statements.  I’d say inconclusive is a better description.  The seal likely is a legit Microsoft/Xbox security seal.  It was just likely not the original seal and at some point, opened and resealed at a factory.  The thing that makes the whole thing strange is that the there are 3 of these copies (as mentioned before, the 2 copies being auctioned and my raw copy) all came from the same seller and looking back I’ve never seen any other black labels with that security seal (and I’ve seen many of them).  That being said shame on me for not noticing though.  But the seal looks like a legit factory seal, just not the right one.  

[jonebone | 1,307]

26 minutes ago, Chuckbiii said:

I agree 100% with your statements.  I’d say inconclusive is a better description.  The seal likely is a legit Microsoft/Xbox security seal.  It was just likely not the original seal and at some point, opened and resealed at a factory.  The thing that makes the whole thing strange is that the there are 3 of these copies (as mentioned before, the 2 copies being auctioned and my raw copy) all came from the same seller and looking back I’ve never seen any other black labels with that security seal (and I’ve seen many of them).  That being said shame on me for not noticing though.  But the seal looks like a legit factory seal, just not the right one.  

Did you ask the seller about his source?  Is he a former Microsoft employee or located near any of their distribution centers?

[Chuckbiii | 2]

1 hour ago, jonebone said:

Did you ask the seller about his source?  Is he a former Microsoft employee or located near any of their distribution centers?

Yes I asked him where he got these as soon as WATA notified me they cannot guarantee authenticity.  He said he acquired them from another eBay retailer.

[kell | 102]

Is anyone sure on the dates of the seals? 

I took a quick look at some of my Xbox games and there seems to be some overlap between the seals and dates.  I'm not an expect on Xbox seals, but I have quite a few sealed games and can to some research if it helps.

[Chuckbiii | 2]

1 hour ago, kell said:

Is anyone sure on the dates of the seals? 

I took a quick look at some of my Xbox games and there seems to be some overlap between the seals and dates.  I'm not an expect on Xbox seals, but I have quite a few sealed games and can to some research if it helps.

What year are your games from?  I’ve never seen anything from Xbox launch (2001) that had the later security seal.  If you have a lot of sealed Xbox games maybe check the seal types and years the games were released?  I am willing to bet only the one earlier seal type is present from the first couple years of Xbox games.  Interested to see what you come up with!

[kell | 102]

Damn, looks like I purchased most in 05/06 so don't think that helps.  Sorry,  thought I had gotten them early in the cycle.  I do have quite a few games and there seems to be a mix of the types of seals

[GPX | 1,369]

On 4/7/2020 at 9:13 PM, Chuckbiii said:

I agree 100% with your statements.  I’d say inconclusive is a better description.  The seal likely is a legit Microsoft/Xbox security seal.  It was just likely not the original seal and at some point, opened and resealed at a factory.  The thing that makes the whole thing strange is that the there are 3 of these copies (as mentioned before, the 2 copies being auctioned and my raw copy) all came from the same seller and looking back I’ve never seen any other black labels with that security seal (and I’ve seen many of them).  That being said shame on me for not noticing though.  But the seal looks like a legit factory seal, just not the right one.  

So either it’s a really impressive reseal, outside factory conditions. Or perhaps indeed factory sealed with either a factory error or variant?

This doesn’t appear to be a VGA fail necessarily, but perhaps one of those grading situations where there is a grey area, and perhaps impossible to know for sure unless you were there at the time of sealing the game.

[Chuckbiii | 2]

And now another raw copy just went up on eBay for auction with this later security seal.....something strange going on now all of a sudden these showing up..

He did change his item description and said multiple people have told him about the seal.  I asked him twice where he obtained the game and will not answer.  Just talks around it.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Chuckbiii

[Startyde | 175]

3 hours ago, Chuckbiii said:

And now another raw copy just went up on eBay for auction with this later security seal.....something strange going on now all of a sudden these showing up..

He did change his item description and said multiple people have told him about the seal.  I asked him twice where he obtained the game and will not answer.  Just talks around it.

Could indeed be a later print or perhaps a third party reprint? Zone of Enders 2, the Yakuza games on PS2, they've all had semi official third party reprints made with official cases etc, but sans the holostrips they originally had. Maybe a similar sitch.

[oops | 85]

did the “prtototype” wata mislabel get posted here?

[Amermoe | 150]

On 4/8/2020 at 9:59 PM, Startyde said:

Could indeed be a later print or perhaps a third party reprint? Zone of Enders 2, the Yakuza games on PS2, they've all had semi official third party reprints made with official cases etc, but sans the holostrips they originally had. Maybe a similar sitch.

I'm very curious about your statement on the Yakuza games. I bought mine at lauch preorder for PS2 and still have them sealed, and am aware of the Rosenqueen reprints Vs the originals. But both Yakuza 1 and 2 did not come with the security seal or at least I've never seen one, and not the ones I bought anyways. The difference between the 2 prints is still noticable though, and you can tell by the size of the font of the title on the edge of the case. The originals have the smaller font if I remember correctly.

I would be very interested to see any pictures of a Yakuza 1 or 2 with security seal.

I want to add, yes, absolutely agree with Zone of the enders, and many other games that got reprints 8 or so years after original print run. Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne comes to mind, and the price of that plummeted after the reprint. Hell, I think I've even seen a Final Fantasy X reprint without the holo seal, and have a hard time believe it's not fake.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Amermoe
further elaboration

[Startyde | 175]

On 4/15/2020 at 2:06 AM, Amermoe said:

I'm very curious about your statement on the Yakuza games. I bought mine at lauch preorder for PS2 and still have them sealed, and am aware of the Rosenqueen reprints Vs the originals. But both Yakuza 1 and 2 did not come with the security seal or at least I've never seen one, and not the ones I bought anyways. The difference between the 2 prints is still noticable though, and you can tell by the size of the font of the title on the edge of the case. The originals have the smaller font if I remember correctly.

I would be very interested to see any pictures of a Yakuza 1 or 2 with security seal.

I want to add, yes, absolutely agree with Zone of the enders, and many other games that got reprints 8 or so years after original print run. Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne comes to mind, and the price of that plummeted after the reprint. Hell, I think I've even seen a Final Fantasy X reprint without the holo seal, and have a hard time believe it's not fake.

I could be fully incorrect on Yakuza 1, as it was a late 05 release, so I apologize.  

[CIB_Wholesale | 418]

[Speedy_NES | 102]

On 4/7/2020 at 2:39 AM, Chuckbiii said:

Correct, it’s the seal type that’s the issue.  This is a fail all around.  VGA grading fail, and WATA fail for taking so damn long to get me my game that I may not be able to return based on the item not being authentic, which will really piss me off......

Fails all around!

Did you pay with PayPal? If so, you can ignore the eBay turnaround and file a claim on the PayPal transaction; you have 180 days for this, so plenty of time.

Is the strip seal type mentioned above also suspicious on a Game of the Year (non-reflective text, no "Only for Xbox", non-NFR) edition?

[Chuckbiii | 2]

On 4/27/2020 at 8:06 AM, Speedy_NES said:

Did you pay with PayPal? If so, you can ignore the eBay turnaround and file a claim on the PayPal transaction; you have 180 days for this, so plenty of time.

Is the strip seal type mentioned above also suspicious on a Game of the Year (non-reflective text, no "Only for Xbox", non-NFR) edition?

I was able to work with the sell and get a refund on mine.  Thanks for the tip though!!!

As far as the variant you mention.  Yes, that is suspicious.  I’ve seen many sealed copies of all variants, and the one you mention should be the older security seal. Even now on eBay all of those have the older seal except one copy.....that variant has a manufacture date on the back of 2003.  From everything I have found and personal experience, everything with a manufacturer date of 2001-2003 has the older security seal.  This includes black label, promo NFR, system pack-in NFR, and foil.  

The platinum hits variant is always the newer security seal and was manufactured in 2004.  Halo 2 has the same 2004 manufactured date and also always has the newer seal.  
 

So for all the Combat Evolved copies (and maybe all Xbox games?):

2001-2003 - older security seal

2004-Present - newer seal. 
 

Any other observations are welcome!!!

[CIB_Wholesale | 418]

is this a fail? 

[Luciobar1980 | 20]

Haha, why? I think it's cool. 

[neodolphino | 267]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am really disappointed to see WATA grading crap like this (on top of the price hikes, and increased grading times):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrono-Trigger-CRIMSON-ECHOES-SNES-Super-Nintendo-Brand-New-WATA-9-8-GEM-VGA/254570470779?epid=214710372&hash=item3b45951d7b:g:tzoAAOSw0uRel6WQ

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Legend-of-Zelda-OUTLANDS-Nintendo-NES-WATA-9-2-VGA-Brand-New-Factory-Sealed/254570442452?hash=item3b4594aed4:g:6DEAAOSwlANel5sS

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Final-Fantasy-II-2-WATA-9-6-VGA-Nintendo-NES-SNES-Factory-Seal-WOW-GEM/254570478167?hash=item3b45953a57:g:GcoAAOSwC7Nel6oy

You like and collect repros - cool, I guess... but grading them...???

[Startyde | 175]

11 minutes ago, neodolphino said:

I don't know about anyone else, but I am really disappointed to see WATA grading crap like this (on top of the price hikes, and increased grading times):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrono-Trigger-CRIMSON-ECHOES-SNES-Super-Nintendo-Brand-New-WATA-9-8-GEM-VGA/254570470779?epid=214710372&hash=item3b45951d7b:g:tzoAAOSw0uRel6WQ

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Legend-of-Zelda-OUTLANDS-Nintendo-NES-WATA-9-2-VGA-Brand-New-Factory-Sealed/254570442452?hash=item3b4594aed4:g:6DEAAOSwlANel5sS

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Final-Fantasy-II-2-WATA-9-6-VGA-Nintendo-NES-SNES-Factory-Seal-WOW-GEM/254570478167?hash=item3b45953a57:g:GcoAAOSwC7Nel6oy

You like and collect repros - cool, I guess... but grading them...???

I don't judge what people grade, as one man's trash is another's treasure, so I have no problem. The turnaround times are a different matter entirely.

[neodolphino | 267]

Just now, Startyde said:

I don't judge what people grade, as one man's trash is another's treasure, so I have no problem. The turnaround times are a different matter entirely.

It's not that they are choosing to have those graded, that's their busniess... it's that WATA is grading them at all (especially in a "sealed" grading scale).  They are repros... of hacks... sealed by a "company" or person that is, for all intents, a hobbyist - likely taking someone else's work without approval and/or compensation and making something unregulated and unauthorized - how does WATA even determine if/how these things were sealed to determine if they are truly sealed and not resealed...??  Even if they are 100% as they came from the seller, these in no way should be legitimized...

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

I don't know if Wata has gotten more graders or what, but it seems like their CIB grading is inconsistent. When I look on ebay I will see 7.0 boxes that look like 5.0s and the other way around. It's great when I get a deal on a game that I feel is undergraded, but I'd be aggravated if I got a higher grade game that looks worse than the grade they gave it.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Bearcat-Doug

[Vectrex28 | 366]

I wonder if they'd grade one of those Famicom edition Saturn Smash tapes made out of 100 yen copies of Dragon Quest...