How did this get graded 85+?

[Magus | 169]

9 minutes ago, Maertens29 said:

And all of those ones I graded myself, and agreed, I hoped for 90 on all of them as they only have superficial cellophane wear.

In a case like this, I would almost assume the seller intentionally didn't want to show the flaws, and hoped that the buyer would simply be happy seeing the grade and moving on.  The rips are very easy to miss on first inspection, but that wear on the back certainly isn't haha.

 

When you ran the game in the database, do you remember the date when it was graded?  I'm just curious if it is 2018 or newer.

 

Edit to add: my DW7 was graded June, 2019.  It is "possible" the standards have lowered....

It's actually old, from 2012. So i wonder if they were more lenient with grading back then....

I know personally if i were selling a graded game and i knew it had a very big scratch on back, and a rip on the side i would make it known.

It's kind of common sense, if you are dealing with people picky enough to buy graded games in the first place, and gold graded, they are going to want to know about marks like that lol 

I honestly didn't see them until today because i never took it out of the plastic bag which is very cloudy, as soon as i took it out, i was like WTF.......a rip? 

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Magus

[GetTheGreg | 105]

2 minutes ago, Magus said:

It's actually old, from 2012. So i wonder if they were more lenient with grading back then....

I know personally if i were selling a graded game and i knew it had a very big scratch on back, and a rip on the side i would make it known.

It's kind of common sense, if you are dealing with people picky enough to buy graded games in the first place, and gold graded, they are going to want to know about marks like that lol 

I honestly didn't see them until today because i never took it out of the plastic bag which is very cloudy, as soon as i took it out, i was like WTF.......a rip? 

 

The testimonial data I've always heard is that VGA was always super tight in the old days.  Interesting.  

 

Someone recently had also said they sent a submission to VGA in 2019 and were shocked at some of the grades (on the high end).  I just sent in an order that I'll get back in May so I'll be able to see first hand in there's been any change in their standards (I always write down my guesses).

 

I can't offer much more info than that though.  It's a very shitty 85+ any way you look at it haha.

[Hammerfestus | 3,836]

Obviously trying to hide those if he didn’t have photos of those marks. Something like that that someone’s paying hundreds of dollars for you make sure to disclose regardless of grading.  F him.  EBay him right in his tuckus.

[Romiked2689 | 120]

Doesn’t eBay always side with the buyer? Open a claim and get that refund! 
 

I remember I sold a prototype for nes on eBay that wouldn’t go in a normal nes. Listed in the description the buyer would need a top loader with the top taken off to use(eprom stuck out to far) the buyer shoved in nes toaster and said it wouldn’t work... im positive they rented that prototype and dumped it. I had no chance hadda give all the money back 

[jonebone | 1,307]

85+ on PS1 is going to have a visible flaw or two. You should be targeting 90 and up for practically no visible flaws or 95 and up for perfect to the naked eye. Your zoom is probably making it look worse than it appears.

85 and 85+ have so much play in the grades though. You'll see nice 85s that could beat bad 85+ and that is what happens when you've graded hundreds of thousands of games.

[Magus | 169]

2 hours ago, jonebone said:

85+ on PS1 is going to have a visible flaw or two. You should be targeting 90 and up for practically no visible flaws or 95 and up for perfect to the naked eye. Your zoom is probably making it look worse than it appears.

85 and 85+ have so much play in the grades though. You'll see nice 85s that could beat bad 85+ and that is what happens when you've graded hundreds of thousands of games.

Okay, good to know, thanks. I guess i got lucky on my 2 other 85+ PS1 games then. They look just about perfect. Same with the 4 PS2 85+ games i have. I could maybe see an extra small mark, but not a giant scratch AND 2-3 other rips in the seal. Just seems like a lot of variance there. 

As for the zoom making it worse i don't believe that is the case. I could see both of these pretty easily the minute i took the protective bag off. They stand out a lot and can be seen with the naked eye no issues. Here are pictures much further away and the defects are clear as day and stand out. 

Even worse, i just noticed another tear on the spine. Right where it says "Chrono" there is another small tear.

[Magus | 169]

4 hours ago, Romiked2689 said:

Doesn’t eBay always side with the buyer? Open a claim and get that refund! 
 

I remember I sold a prototype for nes on eBay that wouldn’t go in a normal nes. Listed in the description the buyer would need a top loader with the top taken off to use(eprom stuck out to far) the buyer shoved in nes toaster and said it wouldn’t work... im positive they rented that prototype and dumped it. I had no chance hadda give all the money back 

Usually yeah. I was trying to be reasonable though and get an opinion from other people who deal with graded/sealed games and know the etiquette with stuff like this. Like whether or not a seller should point out flaws like this even though it's graded. His listing only had 1 picture of just the front. Not the back or the spine where the damage is. Kind of convenient. 

Would hate to do a claim if this is something that really isn't the sellers fault though.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

1 hour ago, Magus said:

Usually yeah. I was trying to be reasonable though and get an opinion from other people who deal with graded/sealed games and know the etiquette with stuff like this. Like whether or not a seller should point out flaws like this even though it's graded. His listing only had 1 picture of just the front. Not the back or the spine where the damage is. Kind of convenient. 

Would hate to do a claim if this is something that really isn't the sellers fault though.

Did you ask for more pictures? The seller may have only had a picture of the front, but if it was me, I would have asked to see more before I bought it.

[Magus | 169]

7 minutes ago, Bearcat-Doug said:

Did you ask for more pictures? The seller may have only had a picture of the front, but if it was me, I would have asked to see more before I bought it.

Yup i definitely should have. I got a little too confident in the grade. I figured it's gold graded, and i have a few gold graded games so i knew what i was getting. Not doing that again. 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Magus

[Romiked2689 | 120]

3 hours ago, Magus said:

Usually yeah. I was trying to be reasonable though and get an opinion from other people who deal with graded/sealed games and know the etiquette with stuff like this. Like whether or not a seller should point out flaws like this even though it's graded. His listing only had 1 picture of just the front. Not the back or the spine where the damage is. Kind of convenient. 

Would hate to do a claim if this is something that really isn't the sellers fault though.

I’m sure he didn’t list the pictures of damage on purpose. 

[hyrulevyse | 151]

Just another example of buy the game, not the grade.  As previously mentioned eBay will basically force the seller to take the return 99% of the time, but I applaud you for trying tot do the right thing.  In my opinion I'd say you have a case if there weren't pictures of each side.  The only real reason not to include them is to hide flaws.  Check his other listings.....see if he takes a picture of each side in those.

[Magus | 169]

18 minutes ago, hyrulevyse said:

Just another example of buy the game, not the grade.  As previously mentioned eBay will basically force the seller to take the return 99% of the time, but I applaud you for trying tot do the right thing.  In my opinion I'd say you have a case if there weren't pictures of each side.  The only real reason not to include them is to hide flaws.  Check his other listings.....see if he takes a picture of each side in those.

Yup, i will be doing that in the future. He has 2 other games for sale right now, both graded. Both are 90/90+. One has pictures of the front and back. And the other is just a picture of the front. 

So hard to say if he hid the flaws on purpose. But he definitely collects and sells graded games, so he definitely should know better IMO to point out flaws like this. I am sure if he were buying, he would want to know of major defects like that on what is supposed to be a gold grade. 

[hyrulevyse | 151]

19 minutes ago, Magus said:

Yup, i will be doing that in the future. He has 2 other games for sale right now, both graded. Both are 90/90+. One has pictures of the front and back. And the other is just a picture of the front. 

So hard to say if he hid the flaws on purpose. But he definitely collects and sells graded games, so he definitely should know better IMO to point out flaws like this. I am sure if he were buying, he would want to know of major defects like that on what is supposed to be a gold grade. 

Interesting, at least he's consistent that way (I'd check his sold listings too).  A 90 ish would be a good example too.   Most sellers would want to show just how nice that item was, maybe it wasn't on purpose.  Still, I wouldn't feel bad about filing a claim if you don't want to keep it.  There's no reason for him to not show all sides or disclose flaws.

[oops | 85]

I have a game graded 85+ and there is no way its anything short of a fluke

[GPX | 1,369]

There are 2 separate issues here from what I can see:

1. Is it worth a 85+? Definitely not!

    What could have went wrong?

     - error by the grader

     - damaged caused by the person putting the game into the acrylic case prior to sealing it

     - error by the typist eg. it may well have scored 85, but the typist had put it as an 85+ (this is where i think went wrong)

    - someone swapped the game after being graded (this is unlikely, as too much effort and not much gain for the seller)

2. Was the seller a douchebag for not highlighting the flaws? Definitely!

   Significant flaws need to be highlighted, it shouldn't really matter the grade - this is the basis of a good buyer-seller interaction. Just because it's a graded game, does not mean the seller can just list one photo and assume buyer can't be pissed off after purchase. The seller is likely to be taking advantage of buyers that are new to the graded scene and don't know exactly what they're looking for. In the very least, the seller is poor in his description (not mentioning the flaws and not showing pics of the flaws), and more so if he's selling a graded game, knowing deep down he is selling to a certain group of buyers that are extra picky than the usual group who buy non-graded sealed games.

   If it was me, I'd ask for a partial refund and take it as a lesson for future purchases.

 

   

[Magus | 169]

So he ended up agreeing to return it which is great and i am gonna pay the shipping so isn't out any money. Was really hoping to finally add this one though  

I just was honest with him and told him i would have never purchased if these flaws were shown in the listing. And that it is highly unlikely this would ever score an 85+ again with all the damage it has, and people picky enough to buy graded games are going to want to know about damage like this and it should be in the listing. He was definitely frustrated, but i think understood the situation. Lesson learned for both of us here.

Now i know VGA can be unreliable and to pay more attention to the game itself. And he knows to be a bit more descriptive with his listings.



 

[Romiked2689 | 120]

I agree with @GPX, well put and a partial refund should be good for all parties included. 

[Rman | 23]

That’s why it’s not a 90!   What do you expect!?    You want an 85+ to be perfect?
 

If those rips weren’t there it would be higher.  That’s what an 85+ is.  Not perfect but nice.   

Edited March 2, 2020 by Rman

[Magus | 169]

37 minutes ago, Rman said:

That’s why it’s not a 90!   What do you expect!?    You want an 85+ to be perfect?
 

If those rips weren’t there it would be higher.  That’s what an 85+ is.  Not perfect but nice.   

Not at all, but it would be nice if there was some consistency with the grade. I have like 6 other 85+ games and like i said they don't have ANY of these flaws. To the naked eye and as far as i can tell they look mint, or close to it. So that is what i expected for that grade going by my experience with them.

So to see a game with an 85+ have not just 1 of these flaws which would be fine, but many of them was disappointing. 4 small rips and a large visible scratch are somehow in the same grade as other games that don't have these, doesn't make much sense to me. If the grading can vary that much it kind of defeats the purpose of grading. Read VGA's own description for gold. It literally says this.

"An item’s flaws must be very minor, subtle, and can often be difficult to identify with the naked eye. A collector who is extremely condition sensitive should be satisfied with the condition of a Gold level item in the vast majority of instance"

To me that sounds like some minor light hard to see scratches/scuffs, and flaws that are difficult to even see unless you really look for them. Not multiple visible rips and deep plainly visible scratches on the same game.  

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Magus

[jonebone | 1,307]

85+ is not really a great grade on PS1.  I agree you need to look at 90 and better to really find stuff that looks pristine slabbed.

Having said that, on this particular game I do think it is more 85 than 85+.  

One last thing that I stress to people, you CANNOT ACCURATE ASSESS A GAME'S GRADE ONCE IT IS SLABBED.  The graders aren't grading slabbed games, they are grading raw games and holding them in hand.  Slabbed games mask corner wear, stress creases that are not whitened (cardboard), wrap scuffing, etc.  That case has a way of making things like nicer than they are.

I guarantee you none of your 85+ games are as pristine as you think or they'd be 90s.  There is something wrong with each one of them.  

[Rman | 23]

If you wanted a mint copy you shoulda paid for a 90 or better.     
 

With ps1 they are grading the shrink wrap.  
 

Unless the case gets cracked there isn’t much else to grade on their scale.   An 85+ is either going to be heavily scuffed or have some rips.   

[Magus | 169]

29 minutes ago, jonebone said:

85+ is not really a great grade on PS1.  I agree you need to look at 90 and better to really find stuff that looks pristine slabbed.

Having said that, on this particular game I do think it is more 85 than 85+.  

One last thing that I stress to people, you CANNOT ACCURATE ASSESS A GAME'S GRADE ONCE IT IS SLABBED.  The graders aren't grading slabbed games, they are grading raw games and holding them in hand.  Slabbed games mask corner wear, stress creases that are not whitened (cardboard), wrap scuffing, etc.  That case has a way of making things like nicer than they are.

I guarantee you none of your 85+ games are as pristine as you think or they'd be 90s.  There is something wrong with each one of them.  

Thanks Jone, i will take this all into account going forward when it comes to grading. 

[Malikk | 0]

So from the last two replies, it sounds like you are punishing the seller because of your lack of understanding of what an 85+ grade means...you said you didn't want to start a claim if it wasn't the seller's fault, but it sounds to me like this whole thread was just your way of trying to make yourself feel better about what you already decided to do regardless of whose fault it was...which is return the item for a refund claim or not.

The seller didn't grade this, and from what I can tell, he sold the item as described in good faith.  Unfortunately, eBay rewards buyer's remorse and punishes seller's good faith more often than not...

I don't know how they keep sellers.

[Magus | 169]

18 minutes ago, Malikk said:

So from the last two replies, it sounds like you are punishing the seller because of your lack of understanding of what an 85+ grade means...you said you didn't want to start a claim if it wasn't the seller's fault, but it sounds to me like this whole thread was just your way of trying to make yourself feel better about what you already decided to do regardless of whose fault it was...which is return the item for a refund claim or not.

The seller didn't grade this, and from what I can tell, he sold the item as described in good faith.  Unfortunately, eBay rewards buyer's remorse and punishes seller's good faith more often than not...

I don't know how they keep sellers.

Maybe you should read through the post again. A lot of people here don't believe this should have been an 85+ to begin with. And that damage like this should be put in the ebay listing. Having a single picture of just the front isn't really acceptable when selling something, regardless of its graded or not. If anything someone buying a graded game cares much MORE about condition than the average buyer. And also like i said, i have other 85+ games that look NOTHING like this. So no, this isn't a matter of not knowing what an 85+ looks like. Most people here even agree, especially very knowledgable people like Jone who i trust, that this is more of an 85 than 85+. So i wasn't wrong to assume the game would look better. 

I will admit i should have asked for extra pictures instead of just trusting the seller and the grade, that is a lesson learned for me. But the seller is equally responsible for not even bothering to put pictures of the other sides of the game, where any of these flaws were plain as day and i would have seen them. That large scratch on the back would have been enough to be a dealbreaker for me, and it is right in plain sight. Another of their graded listings DOES have a picture of the back, so i am not sure why they are picking and choosing which games they decide to take multiple pictures for. 

I had wanted to return this from the beginning, that wasn't a secret, but wanted to get an idea first before i did return it if i was being unreasonable. Otherwise i wouldn't have posted here at all and just opened a claim and called it a day.

Never hurts to get opinions from others who have more experience with buying/selling graded games. And most people here are saying i should return it or get a partial refund which is why i ended up moving forward with trying to return it/claim if need be . A very small amount are saying it's my fault and to suck it up. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Magus

[joshdose | 56]

Hello Magus. Joshdose here. Yes, I’m the one who sold you the Chrono Cross VGA 85+. I am a respected member of the collectible video game community and have never purposely tried to hide any flaws before when selling collectible items. I really wish you would have tried to communicate with me a little better on ebay instead of going behind my back and getting encouragement from others, making assumptions of what kind of person I am, and being a repeat eBay resolution center abuser. I have learned that you’ve done this to other sellers. I believe your expectations about what an 85+ should be are too high. Your knowledge about grading seems subpar and your actions disrespectful. I’m sorry to sound ugly, but it is stressful to have to undergo returns of graded merchandise and have my PayPal account locked down. I have been grading games for years and most of my 85+ PS1 games have slight tears in the spines. Many other factors go into the grading process of these. My fault for assuming a buyer would be aware of this and not adding more pictures. It’s clear to me that you would prefer a 90 or higher of this game, which you will never find, unfortunately. In my opinion, this game is worthy of the 85+. I never did take the protective bag off. I never take any of my graded games out of the polybags. This introduces fingerprints and scratches to the acrylic. I see you have your fingers all over the acrylic case, without gloves on, and are now going to ship it back to me. So, thanks for that. I consider it slightly de-valued now. I wish we could have worked out something else,  a partial refund perhaps. I wish you would have had better communication with me after the sale. And to those of you in this thread assuming any negativity on my part, please know that “IT AIN’T LIKE THAT.” Magus, I do appreciate you offering to cover the return shipping, but why not tell me that. I’ve been waiting for a response from you on eBay for over 12 hours and heard nothing. I have to sit and wait in full anxiety, meanwhile you are chatting with everyone else about covering the shipping cost. Don’t you think that’s something I would like to know? Come on man. One day, you are going to want to start selling some of your pieces on eBay. Maybe then, once you deal with a few of these experiences, you’ll know why I’m so upset about this.