How did this get graded 85+?

[Magus | 169]

So i bought this Chrono Cross graded on ebay. I am finally getting a chance to really look it over and it has 2 major defects that i do not understand how it would have ever graded 85+ with....

A tear, what looks like even maybe 2 tears on the side. And a giant deep scratch on the back. 

Seller doesn't accept returns. And since it is graded i am not even sure ebay would side with me on a claim. I have a few other 85+ PS1 games and NONE of them have any marks like this whatsoever. I genuinely was not expecting a gold graded game to have a tear like this. And for what i paid, i could have gotten a better condition non graded copy for WAY less....

Thanks for any advice. 

[Bubbapauls | 250]

I don’t really know much about grades video games but I have been around graded coins for a long time. Does VGA or Wata offer a guarantee that the item is genuine and the grade they claim? 

When using PCGS (they grade coins) if the item that is in their holder is fake or isn’t the grade assigned they will pay for the value of the coin or pay the difference between the grades if it regrades lower.

It looks like the grading company screwed up to me, but I’m not sure of your options on that. eBay also doesn’t care if it says no returns for items that aren’t as described.

[Magus | 169]

20 minutes ago, Bubbapauls said:

I don’t really know much about grades video games but I have been around graded coins for a long time. Does VGA or Wata offer a guarantee that the item is genuine and the grade they claim? 

When using PCGS (they grade coins) if the item that is in their holder is fake or isn’t the grade assigned they will pay for the value of the coin or pay the difference between the grades if it regrades lower.

It looks like the grading company screwed up to me, but I’m not sure of your options on that. eBay also doesn’t care if it says no returns for items that aren’t as described.

Thanks. I am just not sure how the ebay guarantee works for graded items like this. These flaws were not depicted or described in the listing, probably because it was graded and the grade usually speaks for itself, which is what i bought it based on. So if i did a claim pointing out those undescribed flaws, i am wondering if i would win? 

As for the PCGS comparison, i am like 99% sure VGA doesn't do anything like this sadly. 

[Bubbapauls | 250]

16 minutes ago, Magus said:

As for the PCGS comparison, i am like 99% sure VGA doesn't do anything like this sadly. 

That is strange to me. The guarantee was what got me comfortable with graded coins. 

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

Is it the dude from Maryland, by chance? I strongly suspect there's some guy in Maryland I've bought from who is swapping out games. He lists a ton of VGA stuff on Ebay.

Edited February 29, 2020 by ExplodedHamster

[Gloves | 11,776]

1 minute ago, ExplodedHamster said:

Is it the dude from Maryland, by chance? I strongly suspect there's some guy in Maryland I've bought from who is swapping out games.

If people can swap out games and it be not obvious, that'd be a huge flaw in the grading service.

[Bubbapauls | 250]

41 minutes ago, Magus said:

So if i did a claim pointing out those undescribed flaws, i am wondering if i would win?

The odds are in your favor on eBay. Looks like it was damaged in shipping to me.

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

10 minutes ago, Gloves said:

If people can swap out games and it be not obvious, that'd be a huge flaw in the grading service.

Sure would be. It's this guy. I bought an 85+ Simpsons that had a massive crease all along the bottom and crossed over to a WATA 7.5. Last year, he had a Mario 2 round seal VGA with no h-seam on the back! Check this one out.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bases-Loaded-II-Nintendo-NES-Brand-New-H-Seam-Sealed-VGA-Graded-Silver-85/372880910270?epid=5690&hash=item56d16f27be:g:KxQAAOSwYJ9eHzxN

Would VGA really grade this an 85? Again, 100% feedback, and I'm not comfortable saying it's definitely happening, but I have my suspicions. Either that, or VGA really effed up a few times. A Mario 2 without an H seam?? This user has also changed his name numerous times now...Actually, looks like a brand new account.

Edited February 29, 2020 by ExplodedHamster

[ExplodedHamster | 404]

1 minute ago, Bubbapauls said:

The odds are in your favor on eBay. Looks like it was damaged in shipping to me.

It's possible a crack could appear without damage to the VGA case, if it wasn't packaged well, but no way that rip occurred because of shipping.

[Magus | 169]

3 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

It's possible a crack could appear without damage to the VGA case, if it wasn't packaged well, but no way that rip occurred because of shipping.

It was packaged very well, this definitely somehow got graded this way. Which really has me questioning my faith in VGA grading. I am not sure how someone could reseal or why they would even do it for a lower end game like this $300-350.

If the grades can vary this wildly where i have an 85+ with rips and scratches, and other 85+ games that look dead mint to my eyes, i am a bit hesitant to buy VGA at this point.

[Bubbapauls | 250]

2 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

It's possible a crack could appear without damage to the VGA case, if it wasn't packaged well, but no way that rip occurred because of shipping.

Do the games shift around in their cases? I really don’t know anything about graded video games and their cases.

I do know that game isn’t 85+. VGA says this about that grade, “flaws must be minor, subtle, and can often be difficult to identify with the naked eye.” The seller said it was 85+ which it clearly wasn’t with the seal tear and the scratch. You could say not as described.

[Gloves | 11,776]

13 minutes ago, Magus said:

It was packaged very well, this definitely somehow got graded this way. Which really has me questioning my faith in VGA grading. I am not sure how someone could reseal or why they would even do it for a lower end game like this $300-350.

If the grades can vary this wildly where i have an 85+ with rips and scratches, and other 85+ games that look dead mint to my eyes, i am a bit hesitant to buy VGA at this point.

 

18 minutes ago, ExplodedHamster said:

It's possible a crack could appear without damage to the VGA case, if it wasn't packaged well, but no way that rip occurred because of shipping.

 

I bought a Jojo's Bizarre Adventure that was sealed, but damaged when submitted to Wata for grading (it didn't fit into the SNES case they make, too thick). Apparently they tore the seal a bit when trying to get it in.

Maybe something similar, VGA puts the game in the case, damages the game along the way themselves (post-grade), and doesn't realize before sending it back?

[kell | 102]

Did you contact the seller about a return, or are you going off the listing? If you haven’t, I would try and let them know this condition is not consistent with what you’ve seen with 85+.

 I always say I don’t accept returns, but often will.  I just have it on the listing in an effort to deter flakey buyers.

[Magus | 169]

2 minutes ago, kell said:

Did you contact the seller about a return, or are you going off the listing? If you haven’t, I would try and let them know this condition is not consistent with what you’ve seen with 85+.

 I always say I don’t accept returns, but often will.  I just have it on the listing in an effort to deter flakey buyers.

Thanks, yeah i sent them a message. I am returning this even if it means a claim. If i get stuck with it, it's not the end of the world, i will just sell and recoup what i can, but hopefully it doesn't come to that. I don't collect many sealed games, but the ones i did, i wanted excellent mint copies, or close to it. 85+ seemed to be perfect to me. 

Even if it got graded this way, a seller should know when dealing with graded games and people who are buying graded games, they are going to want to know of major defects like this, especially on a gold graded game that really shouldn't have any.

Thanks to everyone elses responses as well. 

[Magus | 169]

Here is a better view as well. You can see the tear on the right and then 2 other nicks/tears to the left of it. 
 

[Magus | 169]

Well seller refuses to return because it's graded, and the condition should speak for itself in the grade regardless of his listing. 

And he didn't need to disclose anything else and he sold me exactly what was pictured, a gold graded 85+ game. 

Which means i would be dealing with a claim.

Honestly this is more VGA's fault than the sellers for grading this incorrectly and so damn high with flaws like this.

Although i do think he should have pointed out the obvious flaws that really stand out clear as day. 

I am conflicted on opening a claim on the seller. 

[Gloves | 11,776]

7 minutes ago, Magus said:

Well seller refuses to return because it's graded, and the condition should speak for itself in the grade regardless of his listing. 

And he didn't need to disclose anything else and he sold me exactly what was pictured, a gold graded 85+ game. 

Which means i would be dealing with a claim.

Honestly this is more VGA's fault than the sellers for grading this incorrectly and so damn high with flaws like this.

Although i do think he should have pointed out the obvious flaws that really stand out clear as day. 

I am conflicted on opening a claim on the seller. 

Do vga take pictures or otherwise document on their side the quality of the games submitted to them? I wonder if you might get anywhere contacting them? 

[Magus | 169]

7 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Do vga take pictures or otherwise document on their side the quality of the games submitted to them? I wonder if you might get anywhere contacting them? 

I am not sure, i am new to sealed/graded collecting, i will have to reach out and see. I am not sure what information/data they keep for each listing. I checked the serial and it just says 85+ Chrono Cross, no details or anything. I only have 2 weeks left to return, so i would need a response by them sooner rather than later. 

I thought by paying a premium and going graded i would avoid issues like this lol I guess not. At first i thought it was resealed because i thought there was no way VGA would grade this gold. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Magus

[Gloves | 11,776]

1 minute ago, Magus said:

I am not sure, i will have to reach out and see. I am not sure what information/data they keep for each listing. I checked the serial and it just says 85+ Chrono Cross, no details or anything. I only have 2 weeks left to return, so i would need a response by them sooner rather than later. 

I thought by going graded i would avoid issues like this lol I guess not. At first i thought it was resealed because i thought there was no way VGA would grade this gold. 

Does vga have grading guidelines that would make it clear if you do a claim that they wouldn't grade this game so high? Like if they have it written down somewhere official that cuts/tears take it down to a specific score, then you may be able to say that upon receiving the item it didn't match the grade. 

[Magus | 169]

2 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Does vga have grading guidelines that would make it clear if you do a claim that they wouldn't grade this game so high? Like if they have it written down somewhere official that cuts/tears take it down to a specific score, then you may be able to say that upon receiving the item it didn't match the grade. 

It's a little vague, but it says for gold graded games that the defects have to be so small that are usually not even seen with the naked eye. Going on the other 5 games i have 85+ they don't have defects like this. 

[Nintegageo | 582]

I am so not into the sealed or graded scene but considering how anal some collectors can be, does this not count as a sealed game due to the tear?

[GetTheGreg | 105]

1 hour ago, Nintegageo said:

I am so not into the sealed or graded scene but considering how anal some collectors can be, does this not count as a sealed game due to the tear?

No.  Sealed is sealed so long as it cannot be opened, essentially. This would just be a sealed game with a small Nick/tear in the seal.

[GetTheGreg | 105]

Interestingly enough, I just bought a Dragon Warrior VII for PS1 in VGA 85+ and it also has a very small tear in a similar position to yours.  Albeit, there is no other discernable damage.

 

Having submitted ps1 double jewel case games myself, a very small nick should have resulted in an 85, but assuming excellent otherwise condition, I could see it falling into the 85+.

However, with the wear you have, I would expect an 80+ with 85 being the highest possible grade.  Hopefully the return goes smoothly for you.

[Magus | 169]

15 minutes ago, Maertens29 said:

Interestingly enough, I just bought a Dragon Warrior VII for PS1 in VGA 85+ and it also has a very small tear in a similar position to yours.  Albeit, there is no other discernable damage.

 

Having submitted ps1 double jewel case games myself, a very small nick should have resulted in an 85, but assuming excellent otherwise condition, I could see it falling into the 85+.

However, with the wear you have, I would expect an 80+ with 85 being the highest possible grade.  Hopefully the return goes smoothly for you.

Sadly he won't return it, so i am looking at a claim if i do. It's a weird situation, in one sense i blame VGA because it's their grading system not the sellers that was bad here, but i also feel if you are selling graded stuff you would want to point out major flaws like that, especially in gold grade. Or at least have photographs showing a tear. Maybe i am being unreasonable though, i am new to graded games. 

But like the ones you sent me for PS2, look amazing, near flawless. I can't see why they aren't even higher graded. 

[GetTheGreg | 105]

6 minutes ago, Magus said:

Sadly he won't return it, so i am looking at a claim if i do. It's a weird situation, in one sense i blame VGA because it's their grading system not the sellers that was bad here, but i also feel if you are selling graded stuff you would want to point out major flaws like that, especially in gold grade. Or at least have photographs showing a tear. Maybe i am being unreasonable though, i am new to graded games. 

But like the ones you sent me for PS2, look amazing, near flawless. I can't see why they aren't even higher graded. 

And all of those ones I graded myself, and agreed, I hoped for 90 on all of them as they only have superficial cellophane wear.

In a case like this, I would almost assume the seller intentionally didn't want to show the flaws, and hoped that the buyer would simply be happy seeing the grade and moving on.  The rips are very easy to miss on first inspection, but that wear on the back certainly isn't haha.

 

When you ran the game in the database, do you remember the date when it was graded?  I'm just curious if it is 2018 or newer.

 

Edit to add: my DW7 was graded June, 2019.  It is "possible" the standards have lowered....

Edited February 29, 2020 by Maertens29