General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Tulpa | 3,488]

19 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

I suspect that  the closer amnesty and open borders may come to fruition the closer this will come to being pushed for.  These things do not happen in a vaccuum and build on each other.   

I don't see those two happening anytime soon, either, despite all the jibber jabber.

Pundits scream that we're approaching the second coming of chairman Mao, but I honestly don't think we're anywhere close to it. 

[Californication | 1,477]

I was talking with my landlord the other day and he kept telling me about how Bernie Sanders was for open borders.

News to me.

People just eat it up. I've never heard a democrat say open border anything. 

[MrWunderful | 2,926]

2 minutes ago, Californication said:

I was talking with my landlord the other day and he kept telling me about how Bernie Sanders was for open borders.

News to me.

People just eat it up. I've never heard a democrat say open border anything. 

People literally just repeat what Sean Hannity Or Carlson says. Whatever it is. 

[kuriatsu | 65]

16 minutes ago, Californication said:

I was talking with my landlord the other day and he kept telling me about how Bernie Sanders was for open borders.

News to me.

People just eat it up. I've never heard a democrat say open border anything. 

Being an independent, but democrat leaning, I've never heard anything about that either.

Borders are important for any country, but we don't need a giant easily passable wall.

[Tabonga | 2,313]

For your consideration:

Every candidate supports a path to citizenship for the people currently living in the United States without papers — not just those who came in as children. Sanders, Harris, and Castro have publicly said they would pursue legislation to provide a path to citizenship for the 11 million unauthorized immigrants currently living the United States in their first 100 days in office. 

============================================================================================

But some candidates are taking the debate further. Castro, the only Latino candidate in the Democratic primary, was first to propose a radical reshaping of immigration enforcement by calling to repeal the provision that makes “illegal entry” into the US a federal crime. The law has been on the books for decades but was rarely enforced until the George W. Bush administration, when criminal prosecution of unauthorized immigrants for illegal entry became increasingly common.

Many candidates have followed suit: Sanders, Warren, Harris, Booker, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand, Inslee, Rep. Seth Moulton, Marianne Williamson, Andrew Yang, and Miramar, Florida, Mayor Wayne Messam have all support repealing the provision that makes being apprehended at the border a criminal offense.

The first sure sounds like amnesty plus to me - they get citizenship to boot.

The second two look like open borders to me - what is going to happen - they get the equivalent of a jaywalking ticket?  Pass Go, Collect $200 and go to the Free Citizenship square (formerly occupied by Free Parking).

Source:  https://www.vox.com/2019/7/29/6741801/2020-democrat-presidential-immigration-debate

[Tulpa | 3,488]

8 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

 

The first sure sounds like amnesty plus to me - they get citizenship to boot.

The second two look like open borders to me - what is going to happen - they get the equivalent of a jaywalking ticket?  Pass Go, Collect $200 and go to the Free Citizenship square (formerly occupied by Free Parking).

 

A "path" is a bit of a stretch to outright call it amnesty.

And decriminalizing it doesn't mean open borders, more like not shoving them into our overcrowded jails and prisons, or camps.

Like I said, I don't worry about political boogeymen. Chasing all those dog whistles is too exhausting.

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Tulpa

[Tabonga | 2,313]

It is the ulitmate effect that counts - rather than the evading taking place by playing with words (in other words business as usual for these poltroons),   No mention of criiminal prosecution for crimes committed (involving lots of felonies) - which would make green card holders (authorized alien residents) ineliglible for citizenship.    What does amnesty mean then - this sure looks like it.

Where exactly would they want to put the miscreants once they got their tickets (or whatever)?   

As usual, some politicians are peeing on my neck and telling me it is raining.   

I don't worry about boogeymen - the ones that spout this stuff are very real.

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Wandering Tellurian

[MrWunderful | 2,926]

Dont forget that a significant amount of illegal aliens want to contribute, and be productive members of society. If people want to become citizens, and go through the process they should be allowed to. Coming here illegally shouldnt just be forgotten though- maybe tax them an additional percent that goes directly to ICE or something. Not sure if thats even feasible or not.
 

For what its worth, my personal opinion is that people that come here illegally shouldnt be able to access social programs (unless they pay enough into it to be able to after becoming citizens)

[Californication | 1,477]

28 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

It is the ulitmate effect that counts - rather than the evading taking place by playing with words (in other words business as usual for these poltroons),   No mention of criiminal prosecution for crimes committed (involving lots of felonies) - which would make green card holders (authorized alien residents) ineliglible for citizenship.    What does amnesty mean then - this sure looks like it.

Where exactly would they want to put the miscreants once they got their tickets (or whatever)?   

As usual, some politicians are peeing on my neck and telling me it is raining.   

I don't worry about boogeymen - the ones that spout this stuff are very real.

 

I heard they used to give illegals tickets when they crossed and 90 something percent of them would show up for court because many of them are seeking asylum. 

Edit: in 2018 it was 89% of illegals that showed up to their final court date for immigration based on DOJ numbers 

FACT CHECK: Asylum Seekers Regularly Attend Immigration Court Hearings | Human Rights First
https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/resource/fact-check-asylum-seekers-regularly-attend-immigration-court-hearings

Edited February 14, 2020 by Californication

[Californication | 1,477]

8 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

Dont forget that a significant amount of illegal aliens want to contribute, and be productive members of society. If people want to become citizens, and go through the process they should be allowed to. Coming here illegally shouldnt just be forgotten though- maybe tax them an additional percent that goes directly to ICE or something. Not sure if thats even feasible or not.
 

For what its worth, my personal opinion is that people that come here illegally shouldnt be able to access social programs (unless they pay enough into it to be able to after becoming citizens)

I'm not sure what social programs they can get without a social security number.

I mean if they go to the emergency room they will be seen by doctors.

[Link | 2,707]

47 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

It is the ulitmate effect that counts - rather than the evading taking place by playing with words (in other words business as usual for these poltroons), 

You disqualified one instance from fitting the definition of a phrase, because the second half of the definition states it is “primarily associated with” a different instance. Primarily ≠ exclusively. Yet so intent were you upon this, that dozens of paragraphs were spilled over multiple pages, until the argument grew tiresome;  the thread was retired shortly thereafter.

[Nugfish | 652]

1 hour ago, Californication said:

I'm not sure what social programs they can get without a social security number.

I mean if they go to the emergency room they will be seen by doctors.

My mother-in-law worked for a company called Oneworld and the entire corporation revolved solely around government aide for undocumented immigrants. There is alot more government money given than most think/want to admit...

Edited February 14, 2020 by Nugfish
remembered the PC term

[Californication | 1,477]

7 minutes ago, Nugfish said:

My mother-in-law worked for a company called Oneworld and the entire corporation revolved solely around government aide for undocumented citizens. There is alot more government money given than most think/want to admit...

So educate us. I always like learning.

https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-immigrants-and-public-benefits/

Edited February 14, 2020 by Californication

[Nugfish | 652]

1 hour ago, Californication said:

So educate us. I always like learning.

https://immigrationforum.org/article/fact-sheet-immigrants-and-public-benefits/

I cant specifically remember the details. I should see her this weekend and get the run-down. She left maybe 4-5 years ago. I never stated they got full benefits that a disabled U.S. citizen is eligible for, but far more than just not being denied at the emergency room. 

After googling the question this was the 2nd link to come up: 

https://cis.org/Report/63-NonCitizen-Households-Access-Welfare-Programs

[Californication | 1,477]

54 minutes ago, Nugfish said:

I cant specifically remember the details. I should see her this weekend and get the run-down. She left maybe 4-5 years ago. I never stated they got full benefits that a disabled U.S. citizen is eligible for, but far more than just not being denied at the emergency room. 

After googling the question this was the 2nd link to come up: 

https://cis.org/Report/63-NonCitizen-Households-Access-Welfare-Programs

That's an anti-immigration think tank. If you click on the topics drop down, I think each one has been a republican talking point at one point or another.

They seem very unreliable and racist.

But ya, that would be interesting to hear what government programs the u.s. actually offers illegals. I can imagine a law firm or something being brought in by the government to help get illegals through the system, I am sure there are nonprofits to help illegals with their processing and legal issues, but as far as day to day help idk. I think the site I showed said some can receive WIC and public schooling.

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Californication

[Tabonga | 2,313]

12 hours ago, Link said:

You disqualified one instance from fitting the definition of a phrase, because the second half of the definition states it is “primarily associated with” a different instance. Primarily ≠ exclusively. Yet so intent were you upon this, that dozens of paragraphs were spilled over multiple pages, until the argument grew tiresome;  the thread was retired shortly thereafter.

So you are blaming me for closing that thread?   DIdn't know my influence here was so great,  The people responding to me had nothing to do with it getting tiresome I guess (although I did get some pms supporting  me - shocking isn't it) -  takes two to tango (in this case multiple parties on one side of the spectrum)

Since you have chosen  to open that particular can of worms again this is on you,  

The definition was a totality - you can't (which someone did (who should have known better)) cherry pick  to twist to your point of view and then act outraged when someone calls attention to it.  There was a reason the definition was linked to that set of historical events - those events were indelibly imprinted on anyone with even a basic education for several decades after WWII - I realise that educational standards  have slipped the last few decades - but that badly?  Be that as it may here is a extremely graphic reminder of what we were actually talking about  - don't watch if you are easily upset by harsh realities - if you have never seen the ilk before it will haunt you for a long time - I know they did that to me when I saw it in junior high school (no safe rooms for us - not that I regret having seen it - drives things home in a manner that reading about can't).

Spoiler

 

Here is a fairly good documantary (part of a really good series on WWII - "The World at War".

Here is another take (from a more intellectually intense point of view) from an amazing series ("The Ascent of Man") by Jacob Bronowski

 

Edited February 14, 2020 by Wandering Tellurian

[Californication | 1,477]

Link, you're not going to get anywhere.

Trump has like a 94% approval rating with conservatives. 

That means they approve of his policies. They can explain away anything he does because they are living in a different world. 

A crazy, topsy, turvy, racist world.

[Link | 2,707]

.

28 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

So you are blaming me for closing that thread?

No. If I meant that, I would have said so. I carefully did not. Maybe it was a coincidence. I merely noted how interesting it is for you to talk about others playing with words. 

35 minutes ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

The definition was a totality

Definition of primarily

1: for the most part : CHIEFLY

has now become primarily a residential town— S. P. B. Mais

2: in the first place : ORIGINALLY

Nowhere does this close the door to later parts or places. In fact it is left quite open for secondary and tertiary examples. Additionally, there could be ancillary or minor concurrent items. 

Yes I have seen the ilk before and I can stomach it fine. No I don’t wish to open the can of worms. There is a reason I didn’t bother getting a spoon the first time around. I tire of tangents dragging things all over oblivion (regardless of topic or participants). I almost got into the rest of it, but I will set those aside. That is all.

[VegHead | 127]

I say be kind to others.  Do to others as you'd have done to you.  Love your neighbor.  Love your enemy.  Give to him that asketh of thee and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away.

Edited February 14, 2020 by epiclotus

[Estil | 1,261]

On 2/13/2020 at 7:39 PM, Tulpa said:

Chasing all those dog whistles is too exhausting.

Boy I hate that term...it's completely made up like that silly "War on Women" from a few years ago.  No one is whistling for dogs or whistling Dixie.

I guess I kinda sorta agree with you for once...there's no sense chasing after things that don't exist. 

Does anyone here remember the movie Lean on Me?  It illustrates perfectly why Trump is tackling the illegal immigration issue the way he has.  The chains on the doors (in both cases to keep the drug dealers, felons, hoodlums, the really bad felony ones out) are like the border wall...and even if Trump/Joe Clark's methods might seem a bit extreme sometimes, in both cases their predecessors has years to do it their way and if it had worked even somewhat better I doubt Trump would've bothered to run.  And if someone does want to get into the school/country, then you apply for a visitor's pass or in this case, green card, visa, passport, whatever the case may be just as you would any other country.

All that being said though, I very honestly consider it a point of pride to live in a country where people are willing to risk life and limb to get in...as opposed to say, an authoritarian dictatorship sort of country where people feel forced to risk life and limb to escape.  No doubt the worst example I can think of from recent-ish history is the former East Berlin where their wall was a prison wall and anyone caught trying to escape was shot to kill on sight (no warnings, NOTHING).

[Estil | 1,261]

On 2/13/2020 at 7:08 PM, MrWunderful said:

People literally just repeat what Sean Hannity Or Carlson says. Whatever it is. 

Oh yeah, in the previous post you made that assumption about me.  What makes you and the others here (well the Trump haters on here anyway) so certain that those who have differing viewpoints are "just repeating whatever so and so says" or "just repeating talking points"?  While it is true I was certainly into Fox News back in my college days (early 2000s) there's nowadays all kinds of other channels on YouTube and such that honestly make traditional cable/TV news kinda old fashioned for the most part.  Honestly I've not watched traditional cable/satellite TV in years....except of course when UK is playing

Look, I'm not repeating any "talking points"...I'm only saying what I personally think about different things, both here and gaming related.  I am more than capable of having a mind of my own like anyone else.  After all you all know what they say about people who ass-u-me.

[Estil | 1,261]

22 hours ago, Wandering Tellurian said:

So you are blaming me for closing that thread?   

I'm pretty sure the thread wasn't closed because of anything regarding blaming anyone or any case of anyone doing anything wrong.  It was simply a matter of the thread was started in light of Trump's impeachment trial, and now that it has concluded, it made sense (I was in fact one of the ones to second the idea so to speak) to make this thread that could cover any current/political sorts of things.

[Tulpa | 3,488]

6 minutes ago, Estil said:

Oh yeah, in the previous post you made that assumption about me.  What makes you and the others here (well the Trump haters on here anyway) so certain that those who have differing viewpoints are "just repeating whatever so and so says" or "just repeating talking points"?  

Because they are literally repeating the talking points word for word, or close enough to it, without adding or expanding on it.

[Estil | 1,261]

On 2/13/2020 at 8:07 PM, MrWunderful said:

Dont forget that a significant amount of illegal aliens want to contribute, and be productive members of society. If people want to become citizens, and go through the process they should be allowed to. Coming here illegally shouldnt just be forgotten though- maybe tax them an additional percent that goes directly to ICE or something. Not sure if thats even feasible or not.
 

For what its worth, my personal opinion is that people that come here illegally shouldnt be able to access social programs (unless they pay enough into it to be able to after becoming citizens)

I can't believe this buy I honestly do agree with you...and I wasn't sure if we could agree politically on hardly anything.  Even with illegal immigration enforcement it should absolutely be "focus on the biggest fish and work our way down".  You know focus first on the illegals who really are dangerous violent felons or big drug dealers or whatnot?  If we had done that during the 80s/90s War on Drugs instead of wasting time/resources on locking up just mere possession of a small amount of pot or something...I bet it would've turned out far better.  How is anyone supposed to get help for things like that after all if they're scarred they risk going to jail if they come forward?

Edited February 15, 2020 by Estil

[Estil | 1,261]

1 minute ago, Tulpa said:

Because they are literally repeating the talking points word for word, or close enough to it, without adding or expanding on it.

And you don't think liberals and/or anti Trumpers don't do the same just as much if not more so?  Like those here who ass-u-me whoever has viewpoints too different from their own must be a racist?  Frankly I hope the term fake racism catches on as a term just like the term fake news did (though a hundred years ago it was called yellow journalism).  You guys have no idea how much I hate seeing people getting their lives half ruined due to fake racism or those who are wrongly accused of sexual assault and what not.