General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Link | 2,709]

38 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

taxing people over a million into near full turn over of everything isn't going to solve it. 

That isn’t the idea at all. 

Over a certain amount, more of your income or wealth goes to tax. For the money under that amount, the lower rate still applies.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

5 minutes ago, Californication said:

So you think the Republican hammering Sanders on being a democratic socialist is as bad as that whole list of issues with Biden.

That is all they got. Think about that.

 

That's enough for a lot of people, especially those who are on the fence. He's not painted as a democratic socialist, he's painted as the next coming of Vladimir Lenin.

You're a dedicated Berniecrat, so you don't see the obvious middle of the road appeal that Bernie needs and doesn't currently have.

But at any rate, anything you say about Biden, I've heard just as much about Bernie. And I really don't care. I'll throw my lot in behind whoever isn't Trump.

[Link | 2,709]

3 minutes ago, Californication said:

So you think the Republican hammering Sanders on being a democratic socialist is as bad as that whole list of issues with Biden.

That is all they got. Think about that.

And furthermore, at least Sanders can defend himself. Joe is hopeless. Worse than Hillary Clinton hopeless. 

I agree with you. But that is what they will do. A lot of people don’t care about that laundry list of issues. It’s stupid and fucked up and it’s not a good proposition, imo. We’ll have to see what happens in California, Texas, and 

20 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania.

 

26 minutes ago, Californication said:

Barisma

?? is this a typo or what is that?

 

40 minutes ago, Californication said:

This is really depressing. I think Trump is gonna get reelected.

I’m not feeling great tonight either but don’t give up yet.

[Californication | 1,477]

26 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

That's enough for a lot of people, especially those who are on the fence. He's not painted as a democratic socialist, he's painted as the next coming of Vladimir Lenin.

You're a dedicated Berniecrat, so you don't see the obvious middle of the road appeal that Bernie needs and doesn't currently have.

But at any rate, anything you say about Biden, I've heard just as much about Bernie. And I really don't care. I'll throw my lot in behind whoever isn't Trump.

I just gave you a list of things about Biden, how do they apply to Sanders? I am confused.

And as you say you will vote for anyone but Trump. That is the definition of a Biden supporter. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Californication

[Californication | 1,477]

3 hours ago, Kguillemette said:

A Democrat can not win without energizing the black vote. Bernie has tried, but he can't win the black vote. They overwhelmingly support Biden. I would argue the opposite. 

Good call on expecting Biden to do well in the South and Bernie to do badly. I think you called that back on the old site.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

14 minutes ago, Californication said:

I just gave you a list of things about Biden, how do they apply to Sanders?

 

I didn't say the list applied to Sanders, just that I've heard just as much. Primarily stemming from his ideas of redistributing wealth. That doesn't sit well with a ton of people, even those who aren't Trump supporters, per se. I personally don't mind his views that much, but he scares the bejeesus out of a lot of people, and plenty more think that if he's the nominee, Trump has it. (I think it's still up in the air, but I'm concerned about his appeal in the Great Lake states.)

I've heard all of the nominees will lose to Trump for one reason or another, which is just more political jibber jabber.

 

14 minutes ago, Californication said:

And as you say you will vote for anyone but Trump. That is the definition of a Biden supporter. 

Or Warren, or Sanders, or Bloomberg. I don't care which. Bloomberg is my dead last choice, but I'll take him over the orange disaster.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Tulpa

[Californication | 1,477]

What I am trying to say is going into the general not liking donald trump may only get a candidate so far. That was the hillary clinton strategy. 

[Tulpa | 3,492]

1 minute ago, Californication said:

What I am trying to say is going into the general not liking donald trump may only get a candidate so far. That was the hillary clinton strategy. 

I'm aware of that, but Sanders needs to appeal to the moderates and the fence sitters. I.e., the largest voting block. Plenty of them will vote for him if he's not coming across as a pure Marxist.

[Californication | 1,477]

12 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I'm aware of that, but Sanders needs to appeal to the moderates and the fence sitters. I.e., the largest voting block. Plenty of them will vote for him if he's not coming across as a pure Marxist.

Sanders is motivating young people. Those are the hard votes to get. Old people vote no matter what. 

Appealing to moderates doesn't motivate the party as a whole. Another big lesson of Hillary Clinton.

Sanders support is so massive that he has been attacked for years now by the DNC and by every major news station. He has had debate questions skewed against him and all print media go after him. Despite all of this he still has a massive base of support. 

If you gave any of that to a different candidate they would fall apart. Sanders has been able to maintain and grow his base despite having every trick used against him.

How well do you think he would do with support from the DNC, or fair questions from the media. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Californication

[Tulpa | 3,492]

2 minutes ago, Californication said:

Sanders support is so massive that he has been attacked for years now by the DNC and by every major news station. He has had debate questions skewed against him and all print media go after him. Despite all of this he still has a massive base of support. 
 

Massive, but still not the majority.

 

3 minutes ago, Californication said:

 

How well do you think he would do with support from the DNC, or fair questions from the media. 

 

If he wins the nomination, he'll get a ton of support from the DNC. But he needs to win it.

[Californication | 1,477]

Sanders had the majority until today. He won the first four states. He was even cheated out of Iowa news coverage by the media and the DNC. 

You missed my point though. Sanders has stood up despite the attacks. 

What do you think is going to happen to Biden. Biden's strategy is to campaign as little as possible so people don't see how bad he is. What do you think is going to happen when it's him and trump? 

The point of this process is for the democratic party to put out the best candidate. That is not what is happening. Joe is in the lead while everyone is putting obstacles in front of Sanders. 

If Biden faces a candidate that isn't getting hamstrung by their own party he will lose. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Californication

[Tulpa | 3,492]

12 minutes ago, Californication said:

Sanders had the majority until today.

12 minutes ago, Californication said:

What do you think is going to happen to Biden. Biden's strategy is to campaign as little as possible so people don't see how bad he is. What do you think is going to happen when it's him and trump? 

Sanders had the majority in four pretty small elections. Hardly the point to hand him the keys to the nomination. Super Tuesday is always the litmus test.

 

Biden's a seasoned politician, so I think he'll do okay. I also think Sanders will do okay. Both of them were predicted to lose to Trump if they're the nominee, so your spirited defense of Bernie is tempered by the spirited defense of Bidenites, or whatever his supporters are called. Personally, I think you're all nuts.

It'll come down to who can appeal to the largest voting blocks in three states, because those three states decided the last election and the electoral college remains the same.

I'll vote for Sanders if he's the nominee. The question is, will you vote for Biden if he's the nominee?

Edited March 4, 2020 by Tulpa

[Californication | 1,477]

Liberals learned nothing from Hillary Clinton at all. I guess that what happens when you blame Russia instead of being honest about your candidates weaknesses. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Californication

[Link | 2,709]

1 hour ago, Californication said:

Biden's strategy is to campaign as little as possible so people don't see how bad he is.

Also name-dropping Obama. That’s what I’ve seen him do the most, and it’s such a joke considering his record on race matters, and that it’s the opposite of why Obama picked him for VP (to gain white centrists). 

1 hour ago, Tulpa said:

I'll vote for Sanders if he's the nominee. The question is, will you vote for Biden if he's the nominee?

I appreciate your hypothetical support of Sanders. Sorry to say I can’t reciprocate it for Biden. I feel that would not help people in the long run. Living in Chicago I have a lot of experience at the mayoral and state levels with DINOs and I’m not down with it. 

The Democratic party needs to move left. It has been drifting rightward for decades, and by now is to the right of a lot of policies enacted by Eisenhower, Nixon, and Reagan. I voted for H Clinton who failed miserably, popular vote notwithstanding, because she was party over policy as usual. I’m not going to fall for that again. If they won’t put up someone to represent my actual interests to get my vote then they don’t get my vote and I saw little of that from Clinton and little again from Biden. My interests are against war; for the social safety net; equitable health care; intelligent use of tax dollars rather than keeping with longstanding nonsense jingoistic trends; abortion rights; quality education for the most people; and not helping people in need more than the already well-to-do . In short what is going to help the most people. Republicans often see this as simple tax cuts allegedly all around but end up being mainly for high earners; and freedom to discriminate (sorry not sorry). I think that’s short-sighted and ineffective, and Democrats have of late been far too close to the former if not also the latter.

[Californication | 1,477]

Very well said Link.

And I gotta say if Biden wins more delegates than Sanders before any brokered convention, I will probably vote for him

If Biden gets the nomination because of super delegates, I'm not voting. Simple as that.

(As Sanders takes California.).

Edited March 4, 2020 by Californication

[Link | 2,709]

I get the whole moderate / centrist strategy but it just doesn’t work. I was for Gore, Kerry, and Clinton, they all blew it. Obama ran on left ideas in 2008 and almost immediately pivoted to centrism (bank and auto industry bailouts). I was real disappointed in that. In 2012 Romney was slightly right of center and lost to Obama who was just barely left, so that went how it did. Obama elevated military action and killed Bush2’s nemesis Bin Laden and it still wasn’t enough for the rightwing jackoffs still pissing and moaning as much as possible. 

I think more people want left policies, but when they come in milquetoast versions, nobody gives a shit.

[Kguillemette | 1,544]

8 hours ago, Californication said:

Hold on there. Bernie is losing the older black vote right now, not the younger black vote. And many of those older black voters will vote for any democratic candidate, they just associate Biden with Obama, and don't pay attention to anything else.

The "older black vote" you talk about has years of voter apathy because they have a long history of feeling marginalized by the system. Obama was the first one since Kennedy that really empowered them to step up and make a difference. "Yes we can!" Remember? That "older black vote" is the absolute key to winning in November. Biden, for all his gaffes and flaws has shown that he has not forgotten about them. Bernie has tried to rally them, unsuccessfully. And it seems they are being dismissed rather then embraced by Bernie's supporters also.

 

And the overwhelming numbers show that "young black voters" are for Biden. Not just the older ones. Will it matter in the south? No, those states will go red in November either way. But in cities like Cincinnati, Philadelphia, Richmond, Memphis, all those major metros in swing states with huge black populations is where it matters most. They went for Obama because Obama grew up like they did, young brown kid from south side Chicago. Bernie used to march with MLK! Why are his supporters not beating this point home in those urban areas? That's where he'll win.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

It's a very interesting situation we are in right now. I've enjoyed seeing the viewpoints of @Link @Tulpa @Californication and @Kguillemette here.

My two cents, Bernie is my choice but I am in the camp of being afraid that he is too far left to win. 

I'm not on board with Biden but if he gets the nom I will vote for him in an attempt to oust Trump, just as I wasn't on board with Hillary and voted for her in 2016. We failed then, we can't fail now. We can't.

Anyone but Trump. The first step is removing him. 

That said, I fully predict Trump to win the election. 

[Teh_Lurv | 254]

Many younger voters sat out on the Super Tuesday primary, contributing to Sander's losses.

This is a pretty sobering article. If Sanders can't get the turnout among the demographic most inclined to his message, I can't see how he can be an effective Democratic nominee against Trump.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

7 hours ago, Link said:

. My interests are against war; for the social safety net; equitable health care; intelligent use of tax dollars rather than keeping with longstanding nonsense jingoistic trends; abortion rights; quality education for the most people; and not helping people in need more than the already well-to-do . In short what is going to help the most people. Republicans often see this as simple tax cuts allegedly all around but end up being mainly for high earners; and freedom to discriminate (sorry not sorry). I think that’s short-sighted and ineffective, and Democrats have of late been far too close to the former if not also the latter.

Mine are those same interests, but my overriding interest is to get the current inept and reckless leadership out of the White House. I'd like to see Bernie try, though Congress will be a big impediment to his more out there policies, and many voters will know this.

My main point isn't that Bernie has no chance, I think he's got one. Just that when people call Biden unelectable and Bernie's the only chance, well, I hear the reverse. They're both good candidates when you consider the status quo. But if we're unwilling to support the winner, whoever it is, the status quo is what we'll get.

Bernie and Biden are of advanced age, so I am actually more interested in their choice for VP.

[Californication | 1,477]

3 hours ago, Kguillemette said:

The "older black vote" you talk about has years of voter apathy because they have a long history of feeling marginalized by the system. Obama was the first one since Kennedy that really empowered them to step up and make a difference. "Yes we can!" Remember? That "older black vote" is the absolute key to winning in November. Biden, for all his gaffes and flaws has shown that he has not forgotten about them. Bernie has tried to rally them, unsuccessfully. And it seems they are being dismissed rather then embraced by Bernie's supporters also.

 

And the overwhelming numbers show that "young black voters" are for Biden. Not just the older ones. Will it matter in the south? No, those states will go red in November either way. But in cities like Cincinnati, Philadelphia, Richmond, Memphis, all those major metros in swing states with huge black populations is where it matters most. They went for Obama because Obama grew up like they did, young brown kid from south side Chicago. Bernie used to march with MLK! Why are his supporters not beating this point home in those urban areas? That's where he'll win.

They mostly went for obama because he was black and had left leaning message. It was a culmination of the civil rights movement for many people showing that blacks could make it to the highest office. The problem was Obama did mostly dick for the black community. The blacks that realize how little obama did for them are less likely to turn out for biden than the black who don't notice. 

And the problem is Obama is so popular, a candidate, like sanders cannot talk about all the ways obama fucked up because people won't listen. They will just get angry at the messenger.

Biden has done worse then dick for the black community. He has f'!!#÷ them over several times. 

[Californication | 1,477]

I think the most depressing numbers are that  30-40% of people decided who to vote for a few days before super tuesday.

That means if a candidate sees Bloombergs adds 20 times or Bidens South Carolina win, they are more likely to go with that.

[Tulpa | 3,492]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/exit-polls-2020-super-tuesday-primary/

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/485785-details-of-californias-primary-may-leave-sanders-biden-waiting?amp

Here's some good breakdowns of last night and of the California primary.

 

[PineappleLawnchair | 88]

http://archive.is/wip/Xfmus

Left wing Trump is out, now if only Bernie would follow.

[Californication | 1,477]

This seems really on point.