General Current Events/Political Discussion

[Quest4Nes | 376]

34 minutes ago, Link said:

ok and?

you brought it up like it was some deal.

[Quest4Nes | 376]

45 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

To a middle aged white male, no they probably dont. 
 

 

to pretty much everyone. 

That charlottsville protest had around 100 white nationalists that came to it. They came from all over the country. It took across the country to muster up 100 neo nazis for that event. No one cares about neo nazis or the KKK. They are irrelevant and barely exist in the scope of the country.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

4 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said:

to pretty much everyone. 

That charlottsville protest had around 100 white nationalists that came to it. They came from all over the country. It took across the country to muster up 100 neo nazis for that event. No one cares about neo nazis or the KKK. They are irrelevant and barely exist in the scope of the country.

You do know that you dont speak for minorities right? Or the families of people whose relatives were murdered, or terrorized by them? Lol

KKK= Not as prominent as years ago, agreed.
But having the actual KKK back you, isnt because you are looking to unite people. 
 

But since you don't think racism is relevant today, Im not really that surprised you think its not a big deal. 
 

 

[Quest4Nes | 376]

5 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

You do know that you dont speak for minorities right? Or the families of people whose relatives were murdered, or terrorized by them? Lol

KKK= Not as prominent as years ago, agreed.
But having the actual KKK back you, isnt because you are looking to unite people. 
 

But since you don't think racism is relevant today, Im not really that surprised you think its not a big deal. 
 

 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/feb/17/facebook-posts/image-shared-facebook-claims-ku-klux-klan-endorsed/

 

seems like that rumor is false. Looks like that statement grew from this fake sattire news facebook post. David Duke endorsed trump. And he disavowed david duke even though no one cares about loser david duke. If trump is responsible for anyone that endorses him Im pretty sure Bernie has a winner or two supporting him. Im pretty sure Obama had a few winners. All relevant candidates do.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Quest4Nes

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

Just now, Quest4Nes said:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/feb/17/facebook-posts/image-shared-facebook-claims-ku-klux-klan-endorsed/

 

seems like that rumor is false. David Duke endorsed trump. And he disavowed david duke even though no one cares about loser david duke. If trump is responsible for anyone that endorses him Im pretty sure Bernie has a winner or two supporting him. Im pretty sure Obama had a few winners. 

Fair enough, I didnt do any research after Link said that. It doesnt matter to me who endorses Trump in the end. 

Still pretty insensitive what you said about the KKK though. 

[m308gunner | 352]

2 minutes ago, MrWunderful said:

You do know that you dont speak for minorities right? Or the families of people whose relatives were murdered, or terrorized by them? Lol

KKK= Not as prominent as years ago, agreed.
But having the actual KKK back you, isnt because you are looking to unite people. 
 

But since you don't think racism is relevant today, Im not really that surprised you think its not a big deal. 
 

Nobody in this thread can legitimately say they speak for anyone but themselves, including you, and from where I stand Quest has not purported to do so. 

The KKK is no longer a single unified entity, and has not existed as such for a rather long time. They are much more fragmented into local/state chapters, and so if someone makes the claim that the KKK is backing a particular candidate it would not be fair or accurate to characterize said endorsement as a nation-wide effort. Also, if a particular chapter of the KKK backs someone who is not looking for their endorsement (and has even disavowed them), and you lump them in with guilt by association, that does not speak highly of your objectivity or willingness to see nuance in a world with a million shades of grey. No one is pure. No one is good. No one has a perfect lens with which they view and interpret the world. 

It has been my experience that those who are obsessed with racism will find it anywhere and everywhere and use it as a tool to control and shame others, thus making any attempt to discuss or deal with the remnants of that failed ideology that much more difficult.

I recommend to all checking out Daryl Davis' interview on the Joe Rogan podcast (easily found on youtube). He has converted a number of actual KKK members (and has their robes to prove it) and can provide some much needed context to the issue at hand. He's also one mean musician.

[MrWunderful | 2,927]

19 minutes ago, m308gunner said:

Nobody in this thread can legitimately say they speak for anyone but themselves, including you, and from where I stand Quest has not purported to do so. 

The KKK is no longer a single unified entity, and has not existed as such for a rather long time. They are much more fragmented into local/state chapters, and so if someone makes the claim that the KKK is backing a particular candidate it would not be fair or accurate to characterize said endorsement as a nation-wide effort. Also, if a particular chapter of the KKK backs someone who is not looking for their endorsement (and has even disavowed them), and you lump them in with guilt by association, that does not speak highly of your objectivity or willingness to see nuance in a world with a million shades of grey. No one is pure. No one is good. No one has a perfect lens with which they view and interpret the world. 

It has been my experience that those who are obsessed with racism will find it anywhere and everywhere and use it as a tool to control and shame others, thus making any attempt to discuss or deal with the remnants of that failed ideology that much more difficult.

I recommend to all checking out Daryl Davis' interview on the Joe Rogan podcast (easily found on youtube). He has converted a number of actual KKK members (and has their robes to prove it) and can provide some much needed context to the issue at hand. He's also one mean musician.

Save your spiel about the KKK. 
 

And like I said, I dont really care Who endorses Him.  So all that nonsense about “my objectivity” is misguided.  Just like the whole “people who look for racism everywhere”  talk. I personally dont want anyone to be racist. Just calling a spade a spade.  

I took issue at Quest saying “who cares about the KKK, they arent a big deal” which is bullshit, and quite frankly, statements like that are how white nationalism is seeping into the mainstream. In a few years, discourse will be “the stuff they did isnt that bad, they were just joking lol” just like the people denying the holocaust.  (Not accusing you quest)

 

Hate groups like that are a big deal, not just from a historical Perspective-Nowadays they just spend time online on reddit or forums, instead of in backwoods dressed in white robes. 
 

Appreciate the heads up on Joe Rogan, but Not a fan. Maybe Ill look up the other guy.

 

[Link | 2,709]

49 minutes ago, Quest4Nes said:

you brought it up like it was some deal.

I didn’t bring it up like the KKK is a big deal. I brought it up, like the KKK is racists, right? (Or are people gonna say we don’t know that, either?) And they like what The Donald says. 

[Link | 2,709]

1 hour ago, Quest4Nes said:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/feb/17/facebook-posts/image-shared-facebook-claims-ku-klux-klan-endorsed/

 

seems like that rumor is false. Looks like that statement grew from this fake sattire news facebook post.

I was talking about ‘16. Haven’t heard anything about it happening this year.

1 hour ago, Quest4Nes said:

And he disavowed david duke 

lol, yeah, after being asked a dozen times and refusing to.

[Tabonga | 2,317]

 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

9 hours ago, m308gunner said:

It has been my experience that those who are obsessed with racism will find it anywhere and everywhere and use it as a tool to control and shame others, thus making any attempt to discuss or deal with the remnants of that failed ideology that much more difficult.

Mrwunderful already said it, but this line of thinking is ridiculous. Like he said, it's calling a spade a spade. It's not being "obsessed" with racism. It's recognizing that it is a real issue and happens every day in this country, in many different ways. It's recognizing that there is an issue and work still needs to be done to resolve it. It's recognizing that the things the president says and does empower racists in this country to act out and think it's ok to do so.

Ignoring it or saying it isn't a problem is like an alcoholic saying "I don't have a drinking problem"

[cartman | 195]

31 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Mrwunderful already said it, but this line of thinking is ridiculous. Like he said, it's calling a spade a spade. It's not being "obsessed" with racism. It's recognizing that it is a real issue and happens every day in this country, in many different ways. It's recognizing that there is an issue and work still needs to be done to resolve it. It's recognizing that the things the president says and does empower racists in this country to act out and think it's ok to do so.

Ignoring it or saying it isn't a problem is like an alcoholic saying "I don't have a drinking problem"

It's not ridiculous it's kinda how it is. I mean kids can get hounded for wearing a fucking Indian costume how is that sane? Sarah Silverman got hounded retroactively for playing a blackface character in a comedic skit. And then there was that bitch who started attacking a white guy for wearing dreadlocks, she felt it belonged to her people and he was "culturally appropriating" wich is yet another of these tools that the so-called progressives use. She had been bolstered by their shit.

Fictional characters are being analyzed and dissected all the fucking time to conclude wich groups are being offended with the understanding that they get to bully the artist intl concession it really has become a big fucking circus.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

3 minutes ago, cartman said:

It's not ridiculous it's kinda how it is. I mean kids can get hounded for wearing a fucking Indian costume how is that sane? Sarah Silverman got hounded retroactively for playing a blackface character in a comedic skit. And then there was that bitch who started attacking a white guy for wearing dreadlocks, she felt it belonged to her people and he was "culturally appropriating" wich is yet another of these tools that the so-called progressives use. She had been bolstered by their shit.

Fictional characters are being analyzed and dissected all the fucking time to conclude wich groups are being offended with the understanding that they get to bully the artist intl concession it really has become a big fucking circus.

I'm not condoning hounding kids for wearing costumes. I'm not denying that some people who call out racism and racist behavior take it too far. There is a right and a wrong way to do things. Do you "hound" a kid for wearing an Indian costume? No, you educate them.

It's unfortunate that things are taken to the extreme by some but that doesn't excuse the racism in the first place.

[cartman | 195]

3 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I'm not condoning hounding kids for wearing costumes. I'm not denying that some people who call out racism and racist behavior take it too far. There is a right and a wrong way to do things. Do you "hound" a kid for wearing an Indian costume? No, you educate them.

It's unfortunate that things are taken to the extreme by some but that doesn't excuse the racism in the first place.

Yeah well the scene is set so that it can be taken too far. It can be taken to the fucking moon and back there really is no limit and individual/groups take advantage of it to shut people down - just as he said. People don't need to contend with disagreeing anymore they have a solid chance of shutting something straight down if they don't like it.

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

1 minute ago, cartman said:

Yeah well the scene is set so that it can be taken too far. It can be taken to the fucking moon and back there really is no limit and individual/groups take advantage of it to shut people down - just as he said. People don't need to contend with disagreeing anymore they have a solid chance of shutting something straight down if they don't like it.

So what's your proposed solution? Just be content with racism? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. 

[cartman | 195]

4 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

So what's your proposed solution? Just be content with racism? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. 

Well i think we should be more reserved over defining what constitutes racism and when something is and isn't ill intended. And it has to swing all ways - you can't be bolstered to be racist against a white person just because your group is a minority.

 

[VegHead | 127]

A lot of the issues here boil down to one question.  Should we treat other people decently?  There should be a baseline for respecting an individual simply because they are a fellow human being.  The fault of a kid dressing up as an Indian doesn't rest with a child, and maybe not even the parent; it rests with a culture that overlooks the centuries of devastation caused to Native Americans through European expansion into this continent.  War, disease, murder, forced relocation, and forced assimilation have wiped out most of the Native nations and peoples of America.  So, dressing up as one of them for play is, at best, an ignorant mockery by the very culture that caused all that pain.  You don't attack the child, you educate them on why it's inappropriate.  You question the parents on their understanding of the past and present situations that Native people are forced to live under.  You should certainly speak out against companies that produce costumes like this and try to get them to stop or change what their doing.  

Cowboys and Indians is a fun game for kids, but only because the cowboys won and the cowboys are the ones acting out both sides in today's games. 

[cartman | 195]

15 minutes ago, epiclotus said:

A lot of the issues here boil down to one question.  Should we treat other people decently?  There should be a baseline for respecting an individual simply because they are a fellow human being.  The fault of a kid dressing up as an Indian doesn't rest with a child, and maybe not even the parent; it rests with a culture that overlooks the centuries of devastation caused to Native Americans through European expansion into this continent.  War, disease, murder, forced relocation, and forced assimilation have wiped out most of the Native nations and peoples of America.  So, dressing up as one of them for play is, at best, an ignorant mockery by the very culture that caused all that pain.  You don't attack the child, you educate them on why it's inappropriate.  You question the parents on their understanding of the past and present situations that Native people are forced to live under.  You should certainly speak out against companies that produce costumes like this and try to get them to stop or change what their doing.  

Cowboys and Indians is a fun game for kids, but only because the cowboys won and the cowboys are the ones acting out both sides in today's games. 

What about when kids play war is someone at fault there too because people die in wars? Wich side is being subjugated? Who said it's a political statement at all? Should people not be able to put that Viking helmet on with horns and fuck around a little because, you know that was a "profession" based around murder and plunder? They dress like that for a sporting event, fuck around a little and go home.

I think this is hyperbole bullshit and causing drama where it doesn't belong.

[VegHead | 127]

10 minutes ago, cartman said:

What about when kids play war is someone at fault there too because people die in wars? Wich side is being subjugated? Who said it's a political statement at all? Should people not be able to put that Viking helmet on with horns and fuck around a little because, you know that was a "profession" based around murder and plunder? They dress like that for a sporting event, fuck around a little and go home.

I think this is hyperbole bullshit and causing drama where it doesn't belong.

I didn't say it was a political statement at all, so I am not sure where that's coming from.  I also didn't say anything about kids refraining from play-acting violence.  I was specifically addressing dressing up as Indians.  I think kids should play-act as they want; parents and society are the ones providing the tools which fuel their imagination.  I have nothing against kids acting out battles in the yard, and I might even say it's a good first step in their education.  There's a difference, though, in acting out a generic battle and acting out a more concrete part of history.  Cops and Robbers?  Great, have fun.  Cowboys and Indians?  Hmm, hold on a second.  

Also, I'm not sure why you think I'm attacking all forms of dressing up.  I see nothing wrong with people dressing up as Vikings and having a laugh (or going to a football game) because there is a heavy Scandinavian heritage in the Midwest, and it's people celebrating that.  I have a different reaction to people dressing up as Indians and going to a Cleveland baseball game or a Washington football game because those people largely aren't of that heritage and so their use of the imagery isn't a celebration of it but an appropriation.  

Lastly, with all due respect, if my words are causing drama for you, then I sincerely apologize.  This thread is meant for discussion and debate, but you seem to be taking it quite personally.  Nobody is attacking you; we are merely discussing ideas and the best ways to promote a better society.

[cartman | 195]

32 minutes ago, epiclotus said:

I didn't say it was a political statement at all, so I am not sure where that's coming from.  I also didn't say anything about kids refraining from play-acting violence.  I was specifically addressing dressing up as Indians.  I think kids should play-act as they want; parents and society are the ones providing the tools which fuel their imagination.  I have nothing against kids acting out battles in the yard, and I might even say it's a good first step in their education.  There's a difference, though, in acting out a generic battle and acting out a more concrete part of history.  Cops and Robbers?  Great, have fun.  Cowboys and Indians?  Hmm, hold on a second.  

Also, I'm not sure why you think I'm attacking all forms of dressing up.  I see nothing wrong with people dressing up as Vikings and having a laugh (or going to a football game) because there is a heavy Scandinavian heritage in the Midwest, and it's people celebrating that.  I have a different reaction to people dressing up as Indians and going to a Cleveland baseball game or a Washington football game because those people largely aren't of that heritage and so their use of the imagery isn't a celebration of it but an appropriation.  

Lastly, with all due respect, if my words are causing drama for you, then I sincerely apologize.  This thread is meant for discussion and debate, but you seem to be taking it quite personally.  Nobody is attacking you; we are merely discussing ideas and the best ways to promote a better society.

If it's not a political statement then why is it inappropriate? What exactly is the parent refraining from in that case by witholding it from the kids? 

How do you conclude that it's not celebrating? I personally never dressed up (from what i can remember atleast) but i did have those mono-colored plastic toys of Cowboys and Indians and i was more intrigued by the Indian aspect of the warriors. I don't agree that it's demeaning even dressing up, most of the time it's celebrating wichever character you try to look as.

But then there's of ofcourse that "appropriation" aspect so you're auotomatically barred: not by your intentions but regardless of them based on your ethnic background. But if you instead say openly "no i don't want to take part in this black or Mexican culture, invention, whatever" you're bad aswell so it's like what exactly do you want? This appropriation garbage is just racism packed in a different way and it comes from those thinking they're good.

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by cartman

[Tabonga | 2,317]

7 minutes ago, cartman said:

But then there's of ofcourse that "appropriation" aspect so you're auotomatically barred: not by your intentions but regardless of them based on your ethnic background. 

 

Unless of course you are the likes of  Ward Churchill, Elizabeth Warren or Rachel Dolezal (aka Nkechi Amare Diallo) - in which case the rules seem to be vastly different (or more accurately mostly ignored/excused),

Edited February 21, 2020 by Tabonga

[cartman | 195]

3 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

Unless of course you are the likes of  Ward Churchill, Elizabeth Warren or Rachel Dolezal (aka Nkechi Amare Diallo) - in which case the rules seem to be vastly different (or more accurately mostly ignored/excused),

I don't know these people or what they so i can't say 

[CodysGameRoom | 2,008]

How about when the racist President mocked the trail of tears?

"Today Elizabeth Warren, sometimes referred to by me as Pocahontas, joined the race for President," he wrote on Twitter. “Will she run as our first Native American presidential candidate, or has she decided that after 32 years, this is not playing so well anymore? See you on the campaign TRAIL, Liz!" 

 

[VegHead | 127]

12 minutes ago, cartman said:

If it's not a political statement then why is it inappropriate? What exactly is the parent refraining from in that case by witholding it from the kids? 

How do you conclude that it's not celebrating? I personally never dressed up (from what i can remember atleast) but i did have those mono-colored plastic toys of Cowboys and Indians and i was more intrigued by the Indian aspect of the warriors. I don't agree that it's demeaning even dressing up, most of the time it's celebrating wichever character you try to look as.

But then there's of ofcourse that "appropriation" aspect so you're auotomatically barred: not by your intentions but regardless of them based on your ethnic background. But if you instead say openly "no i don't want to take part in this black or Mexican culture, invention, whatever" you're bad aswell so it's like what exactly do you want? This appropriation garbage is just racism packed in a different way and it comes from those thinking they're good.

 

It's not a political statement because it has nothing to do with politics in the sense of governance.  It's inappropriate because, as we learn more about our history and the ways different cultures have been treated through the actions of our predecessors, we should leave behind those kinds of activities which violate the dictum of respecting our fellow human beings.  So, when we recognize that the current population of America greatly benefits from wiping out the majority of the original population that inhabited these lands, it stands to reason that dressing up as a caricature of them for the purposes of play is unkind.  We can do better than disrespecting another people so that our children might have fun.  

People do take appropriation claims too far in some instances, and a person's intent has a lot to do with whether they are exploring and celebrating another culture, or if they are appropriating it for their own ends.  For example, I attended a play at a college that was in the kabuki style.  The actors were not Japanese, and yet they dressed as them and acted out the methods of another culture.  I see no problem with that, as participation in a culture can be highly education and personally rewarding.  Contrast this with a comedian who puts on blackface to get a laugh out of an audience for his/her own career advancement, and you can see the difference.  

[Gloves | 11,776]

1 minute ago, CodysGameRoom said:

How about when the racist President mocked the trail of tears?

"Today Elizabeth Warren, sometimes referred to by me as Pocahontas, joined the race for President," he wrote on Twitter. “Will she run as our first Native American presidential candidate, or has she decided that after 32 years, this is not playing so well anymore? See you on the campaign TRAIL, Liz!" 

 

FYI, you can embed tweets on the forum by simply pasting in the url to the tweet itself, like so:

This can help to drive points home far better by providing evidence in context.