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MrWunderful

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Just now, cartman said:

I would argue that a 2 party system structure is suboptimal no matter where you get the news.

True. That's a whole other discussion. A third party will take a lot of work to get off the ground with how well each side has branded themselves. You can't be pro life and think global warming is real. That's taking one from each side. Not allowed. That's a no no. How dare you have your own thoughts that mix the left and right.

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19 minutes ago, cartman said:

So basically you've arbitrarily decided wich side should get to have the moral highground then.

I didn't arbitrarily decide. It's part of their identity.

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

Because like i said everyone gets offended by something and they'll claim that their case is just and what they dislike perpetuates bad behaviour in other ways.

Or they have a legit gripe about their very cultural identity and are asking to not be made fun of. People do have feelings.

If you're in the "fuck your feelings, I wanna laugh" crowd, then I don't know what to tell you.

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

They might say it encourages violence for example.

Have they said that in this instance? No.

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

 You might aswell have said if people enjoy seeing a character do something wrong it's a bad thing period because getting enjoyment out of it enables it. 

Never said that, I said how it relates to cultural identity matters.

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

A substantial amount of Indians compared to what? All Indians? All Simpson fans period?

Does it matter? They're human beings. Some were offended. Do their feelings not count?

You have to break it down into numbers rather than listen to people's feelings?

Again, the creators of the Simpsons listened and responded. You say they caved. You don't know. It could be they acted like human beings and did the right thing.

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

They're not representative of anyone but themselves like i said they just bothered talking a lot and highlighting their stunt on social media.

Which was their right.

They had no control over the network. They just voiced.

You're just mad because you don't have an effective voice. Git Gud.

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

So what if a white dude is putting up your culture?

White dudes have been dictating culture for centuries. It's time to let other voices have their say.

IN THEIR OWN CULTURE!

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

You want to segregate cultures and races instead then? If something is good or bad not because of it's contents but rather because of the creators races well that's racism.

No, it's giving proper voice to a culture.

If someone put up an offensive caricature of you and said to the world "Hey, look at this shithead," you'd feel something.

And don't fucking tell me you'd shut up and let people just laugh at you.

They endure this every day. It's time for us to take notice.

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

t doesn't matter what they where rooted in it what matters is that you're defending moralist sentiments. You feeling that race should have to be the drawing line over say violence or how family life should be portrayed on TV is still just as much of a subjective issue as the moralist camp you defend itself

It's pretty cut and dry when it's someone else's culture. And when the white people put up caricatures of that culture without input from that culture, it causes problems.

Do it enough and it's big problems.

It's not subjective.

We've seen the damage it causes.

It's time to knock it off.

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

I assume you wouldn't have been happy if Simspons adjusted the content on the conservative objections and the show turned into something much lamer but now since it's a group whose sentiments you sympathise with you feel Simpsons creators did the right thing in catering. Either they should cater or they shouldn't you can't pick and choose.

Not at all. The conservative objections were canards. They were proven to be such. They didn't have any stake in what they were actually talking about.

This does have a stake, and it can be shown that it is an offensive caricature.

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

Conservatives are human beings too... everyone is. They felt Simpson was fucking up their vision of the American culture. Everyone can't have it their way on the basis of "being human" because we all cancel each other out so it's +-0.

Their idea of American culture wasn't what they were really protesting. They're constantly contradicting themselves.

As opposed to what the Indians were concerned about, which they can directly point to. "A white dude is portraying us. Can we have someone from our culture do it instead?"

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

How can you know that the Indian viewers thought that the Simpsons creators saw him as a representation of their collective?

Because many of them came out and said so.

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

I'm not Indian but that's not the conclusion i would draw based on one character, it would be pretty obvious to me that Simpson creators understand aswell that there are other Indians with other traits than Apu.

Again, the argument isn't that he's Indian, it's that he's voiced by a white dude doing an accent that is a stereotype. You forget that part of the discussion?

Indians like that he's on the show.

So he stays on the show.

They didn't like his voice.

So his voice actor willingly stepped aside.

Simple.

19 minutes ago, cartman said:

But i mean you can apply that to any character really the creators can't prevent viewers from drawing broad conclusions when they shouldn't. They could mitigate it by having multiple Indians with different personalities so that the viewers understand diversity easier but then it would be a trade-off against having a single character that stands out. Apu's quirks elevate him as a character by the very fact that he's alone, if there were 10 Indians doing different things then the minority storeowner image and voice would be lessened. For good or for worse it is a factor that alters the character and by that the shows overall structue aswell.

Again, it's not Apu himself. Apu's character is not the problem.

IT'S THE WHITE DUDE SPEAKING FOR APU.

And again, Azaria willingly stepped away. He could have said he was pressured. He didn't. You just concocted it in your head.

 

 

I am willing to agree to disagree on this. But I seriously don't think comedy is in trouble.

Make no mistake, I will argue this until the sun goes red giant, too. 😛

Edited by Tulpa
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36 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

@Bearcat-Doug @Tabonga

I'd also like to double down on my request and ask for some real world examples from this century. The Chipotle thing isn't it. Let's hear about people in today's social climate who had their lives ruined by fake racism. It's such a huge issue, there should be no problem finding multiple examples to provide.

Here is the line from the quote I of yours I cited:

Quote

Still waiting for anyone to provide a real world example where someone had their life ruined because they were called a racist when they are not.

 

Pretty clearly indicates singular (at least in my sector of the known universe).  Are you disregarding the Chipolte woman because she isn't white?  Or maybe because she is possibly a white hispanic (I don't know how to tell them apart from a photograph - maybe you can enlighten me).

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11 minutes ago, Rhino said:

And Democrats want to make you feel like shit and that you're the devil if you don't want the police defunded or you aren't pro choice.

I mean, on one hand, if you want to tell women what to do with their bodies, yea, you are a pretty big piece of shit.

On the other hand, I wouldn't call you the devil or anything. I mean I'm an atheist so I don't believe in all that fairy tale nonsense.

😉 

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11 minutes ago, Rhino said:

Too bad most people in the u.s only ever watch or get their news from cnn or fox.

Do they? The numbers suggest that only a fraction do. On a good day Fox only claims about 3.5 million. Out of 300 million people in the US.

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2 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

Do they? The numbers suggest that only a fraction do. On a good day Fox only claims about 3.5 million. Out of 300 million people in the US.

But how many people who watch news watch Fox and CNN. See you're doing exactly what the media does. Manipulating data points to fit your point. No way are 300 million people in the U.S watching TV every day. Your point makes no sense. 

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1 minute ago, Tabonga said:

Here is the line from the quote I of yours I cited:

I don't give a shit. I was just clarifying my original request, it's right there, in black and white. I didn't get a response so I quoted it, still asking for an example. I never said "Someone please give me JUST ONE example." And I'm done discussing the semantics of the request because it couldn't matter less.

 

3 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

Are you disregarding the Chipolte woman because she isn't white?

I'm discounting it because no ones life was ruined. There was a mis-understanding and it was corrected. Chipotle did it wrong and that's a shame for the girl. But it's not an example. 

Frankly, worrying about people being called out for "fake racism" more than worrying about the actual RACISM going on is a shitty outlook.

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3 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

Yea because if you are educated enough to know that global warming is a serious issue, you probably don't worry too much about what a woman does with her own body.

Lol. Can you be not racist and think global warming is real? All Republicans are racist based on the democratic branding of them. Can you support lgtbq+ rights and be pro gun? No no no. Make it stop. The intermixing of both party sides hurts. Obey. Obey. Must....obey....

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3 minutes ago, Rhino said:

But how many people who watch news watch Fox and CNN. See you're doing exactly what the media does. Manipulating data points to fit your point. No way are 300 million people in the U.S watching TV every day. Your point makes no sense. 

You literally said most people. 1% of the population is not most people.

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Just now, Rhino said:

Lol. Can you be not racist and think global warming is real? All Republicans are racist based on the democratic branding of them. Can you support lgtbq+ rights and be pro gun? No no no. Make it stop. The intermixing of both party sides hurts. Obey. Obey. Must....obey....

I'm just saying intelligent people tend to be on the right side of most things at the same time.

However, I know plenty of people that have views on one subject that would be considered left, and on another subject that would be considered right. Kinda comes with the territory in Nebraska. Yea, some people are brainwashed by Fox News, CNN, FACEBOOK worse than most I think. But a lot of Americans have educated informed opinions. Including the majority of people in this thread, whether I agree with them or not, who you told to "get a brain". 🙄

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7 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

You literally said most people. 1% of the population is not most people.

Most people who watch the news lol. This is exactly what I said. Stop being the media and twisting stuff. 

"Too bad most people in the u.s only ever watch or get their news from cnn or fox."

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3 minutes ago, Rhino said:

Most people who watch the news lol.

From the Nielson studies, I've seen it pegged at 32 million total news viewers. That's still only 10%, not most.

The others are getting it from somewhere else.

And that's just TV news, not internet or newspaper (which usually draws from AP or Reuters for much of the national and international stuff.)

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37 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I just (admittedly briefly) read about this. It seems the jist is that a group of black people were fed up with white racism, and murdered a bunch of black people. That's sad and is not ok of course.

But that's not really an example of a white person's like being ruined by fake claims of them being racist. That's the big horrifying thing that Estil, Cartman and others are so worried about. Where is the examples of the people who were called racist, and had their lives ruined, that weren't actually racist?

They actually murdered a bunch of white people* - primarily because they thought all whites were racist (this was long before the idea of white privilege was  magicked up). Unless you want to agree that all the victims were indeed racists and therefore deserved to be killed - one poor guy (a tranisent who was never identified) was kidnapped and literally cut to pieces alive while tied up like a turkey on Christmas Day.  I would argue that those people had their lives ruined in the worst possible way.involved there 

*There may have been as many as 73 victims - I haven't read all of those cases so there may have been a minority of some sort involved there  - but it would have been very atypical,  IIRC they referred to whites as white devils or (maybe) white demons.

**In fact both the perpetrators and the police referred to that particular case as a Christmas Turkey.

Quote

But that's not really an example of a white person's like being ruined by fake claims of them being racist.

Where is the examples of the people who were called racist, and had their lives ruined, that weren't actually racist?

See my above statement on the Zebra victims pretty much having their lives ruined.

Are we talking one or more here - your grammar is pointing in more than one direction.  In any event I doubt any numbers of examples would suffice since you would either find pretexts to disount them or they would never be enough.  So let's stick to your "one" example request - we both know where it begins and where it ends -not that anyone would try to evade it.

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1 minute ago, Tabonga said:

They actually murdered a bunch of white people*

I did mean to type white people. That was a typo on my part.

1 minute ago, Tabonga said:

this was long before the idea of white privilege was  magicked up

Do you deny white privilege exists? Because if you do, PLEEEEASE elaborate on that.

2 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

I would argue that those people had their lives ruined in the worst possible way.involved there 

Surely you can see the different between this occurrence and what I'm talking about. Those people weren't accused of fake racism, which then caused them to lose their job, or anything like that. They were fucking murdered by a radical group. You know this is not the norm and not the type of thing that Estil and others are so worried about.

8 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

Are we talking one or more here - your grammar is pointing in more than one direction.

So let's stick to your "one" example request

 I already quoted and thus have proven that my original request was for multiple examples. Stop twisting my words. Simply because I followed up a request for multiple examples by paraphrasing my original request, does not discount or remove my original request. This is not what is even being debated here and I won't discuss it further.

4 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

In any event I doubt any numbers of examples would suffice since you would either find pretexts to disount them or they would never be enough.

I would absolutely acknowledge any factual example. I already said that the original case you mentioned here regarding the attorney may very well have been. 

I also asked for examples in the current social climate. Who has had their lives ruined in the last 5 years by being called a racist, who wasn't actually racist? I'm dying to see examples of this to see why everyone is so afraid of this fake racism. It's a non-issue that is being created by fragile little white men with fragile little egos. 

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21 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I don't give a shit. I was just clarifying my original request, it's right there, in black and white. I didn't get a response so I quoted it, still asking for an example. I never said "Someone please give me JUST ONE example." And I'm done discussing the semantics of the request because it couldn't matter less.

 

I'm discounting it because no ones life was ruined. There was a mis-understanding and it was corrected. Chipotle did it wrong and that's a shame for the girl. But it's not an example. 

Frankly, worrying about people being called out for "fake racism" more than worrying about the actual RACISM going on is a shitty outlook.

Tsk Tsk.  Am I using too long of words again - or maybe displaying too much intelligence? If you don't give a shit (such eloquence has never before demonstrated on this (or any other board) simply don't respond in any manner to my posts. *

And I was citing the quote of yours that clearly indicates singular.  Not some other quote of yours - if so I would have cited it.  t 

I like how you can decide how her life was/was not  ruined and she can't.  Scintillating logic.

I never said I was looking at it from any global perspective - that was an interpolation bearcat (and now you) added - you both asked a simple question which I responded to - at first you agreed it was an adequate (well the first case anyway) response of an example  and now it isn't?

359613458_download(41).jpeg.56d5fe4c366352548116c06686621914.jpeg

*Maybe the tooth fairy will grant your wish and I will keel over tonight.  (Being the oldest person here that was obviously aimed at me eh?)

 

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15 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I did mean to type white people. That was a typo on my part.

Do you deny white privilege exists? Because if you do, PLEEEEASE elaborate on that.

Surely you can see the different between this occurrence and what I'm talking about. Those people weren't accused of fake racism, which then caused them to lose their job, or anything like that. They were fucking murdered by a radical group. You know this is not the norm and not the type of thing that Estil and others are so worried about.

 I already quoted and thus have proven that my original request was for multiple examples. Stop twisting my words. Simply because I followed up a request for multiple examples by paraphrasing my original request, does not discount or remove my original request. This is not what is even being debated here and I won't discuss it further.

I would absolutely acknowledge any factual example. I already said that the original case you mentioned here regarding the attorney may very well have been. 

I also asked for examples in the current social climate. Who has had their lives ruined in the last 5 years by being called a racist, who wasn't actually racist? I'm dying to see examples of this to see why everyone is so afraid of this fake racism. It's a non-issue that is being created by fragile little white men with fragile little egos. 

I'd buy that for a dollar.

The perpetrators accused them (by killing them) of being racists  I never said that it set any norm.  But there have been other cases*  And I have proven that I was not responding to your earlier request - just the one I quoted.  Actually it is what we are talking about - I gave you one case which you wanted - and now it turns out it wasn't enough.   You (and your co-conspirator) have repeatedly interjected interpolations on my behalf - thanks but if I mean something I will state it myself.

Yeah - one - but you flip flopped and now need more for me to prove some point I never made. That is a hard standard to meet,

So what is your time frame for not talking about slavery? I can guess - but it will likely evade a lot of underlying issues.  And does your timeframe supercede everyone elses?

*One of the many many subjects I read about are true crime stories - this one did not stick out because it was whites being killed by blacks but because of the bizarre nature of the crime spree,  I know have read about other similar cases (blacks killing whites exclusively)  but off the top of my head nothing is sticking out right now.  (Like I said - I read a lot,)

Edited by Tabonga
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13 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

Tsk Tsk.  Am I using too long of words again - or maybe displaying too much intelligence? If you don't give a shit (such eloquence has never before demonstrated on this (or any other board) simply don't respond in any manner to my posts. *

And I was citing the quote of yours that clearly indicates singular.  Not some other quote of yours - if so I would have cited it.

I wasn't saying I didn't give a shit what you posted. If I did, I'd take your suggestion and stop discourse. I was saying I didn't give a shit what you quoted. You took one thing I said out of context with the rest of what I said to fit your narrative. That's an action you yourself has criticized elsewhere in this very thread. 

15 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

at first you agreed it was an adequate (well the first case anyway) response of an example  and now it isn't?

See below. I already agreed that it may very well be.

19 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I already said that the original case you mentioned here regarding the attorney may very well have been. 

 

15 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

*Maybe the tooth fairy will grant your wish and I will keel over tonight.  (Being the oldest person here that was obviously aimed at me eh?)

That depends. Are you an old white racist who's held the same staunch viewpoints for 50+ years and refuse to change your ways, thus stifling the progression of this country? If that describes you, then the shoe fits I guess.

5 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

I'd buy that for a dollar.

You can believe or not believe anything I say. If you don't believe it, why even respond to me at all? lol

6 minutes ago, Tabonga said:

Yeah - one - but you flip flopped and now need more for me to prove some point I never made

Never flip-flopped. Also you don't have to bear the burden of providing examples. You chose to do so. I am asking anyone to provide the examples, particularly those who are mortified of that fake racism will ruin our country. The reason I "drilled down" to ask for current social climate examples is because that is what is feared and that is what is relevant. 

I'm happy to continue discussing examples from any period of time. However, I'm more interested in seeing recent real world examples.

 

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@cody

Missed this:

Quote

Do you deny white privilege exists? Because if you do, PLEEEEASE elaborate on that.

 

It definitely was magicked up. 

 Let me know when I am supposed to get my share of whatever white privilege is supposed to entitle me too.  I am not gonna stretch this but with my family background and my work history at PC world I definitely was treated less equally than others of a different stripe.  So I am still waiting for the big payoff.   

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2 minutes ago, CodysGameRoom said:

I wasn't saying I didn't give a shit what you posted. If I did, I'd take your suggestion and stop discourse. I was saying I didn't give a shit what you quoted. You took one thing I said out of context with the rest of what I said to fit your narrative. That's an action you yourself has criticized elsewhere in this very thread. 

See below. I already agreed that it may very well be.

 

That depends. Are you an old white racist who's held the same staunch viewpoints for 50+ years and refuse to change your ways, thus stifling the progression of this country? If that describes you, then the shoe fits I guess.

You can believe or not believe anything I say. If you don't believe it, why even respond to me at all? lol

Never flip-flopped. Also you don't have to bear the burden of providing examples. You chose to do so. I am asking anyone to provide the examples, particularly those who are mortified of that fake racism will ruin our country. The reason I "drilled down" to ask for current social climate examples is because that is what is feared and that is what is relevant. 

I'm happy to continue discussing examples from any period of time. However, I'm more interested in seeing recent real world examples.

 

I gave you one example which you both wanted.  Hardly out of context. 

You and your ilk have repeatedly suggested/intonated that I am a racist.  I happen to disagree,   It is a cheap (but ineffective IMHO) debate/discussion tactic I guess.  In addition I have been mocked because of my age - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put those together does it?

Again you flip flopped -you asked for one example, I gave it, you agreed it was an example (although you hedged more that a bit -are you a gardener IRL?) then it wasn't enough because you then wanted a now unspecified number of examples - all to have me prove some point I never made. 

I am guessing you want to decide what recent world experience is - depending on one's overall perspective that could go back as far as WWII - history builds on itself and in the case of the US that sets the stage for much of what follows thereafter until even today.    

 

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1 hour ago, Tulpa said:

From the Nielson studies, I've seen it pegged at 32 million total news viewers. That's still only 10%, not most.

The others are getting it from somewhere else.

And that's just TV news, not internet or newspaper (which usually draws from AP or Reuters for much of the national and international stuff.)

There you go again trying to manipulate data to make your point. Out of those who watch the news, the most watched channel is fox, even from the source you quoted. Try harder.

"For the fourth year in a row, Fox News Channel finished 2019 as the most-watched network on cable, according to Nielsen’s Live + Same Day ratings."

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