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Analogue Update: Duo ($250; Ships 2023) and Pocket ($200; Ships 2023) Available for Preorder


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2 hours ago, ifightdragons said:

Just to back up what everyone else is saying here:

Using Analogue products on a CRT will yield perfect visual results; truly reference quality all the way from S-Video, Component to RGB.

If anything, it's a surefire way to future-proof your console with regards to longevity, and having all options open; CRT and HDTV. With a jailbreak, they also double as a flashcart.

They're basically the ultimate versions of their respective consoles, and as a bonus they negate the need of recapping, repairing or even modding the original consoles.

 

 

Except they aren't original, and aren't running perfect. 99% accuracy is not 100% accuracy, am I right? 

If you are going to run the extra mile and do the maintenance to run real carts, why not run it on proper hardware? That's what I personally can't comprehend.

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1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

If you are going to run the extra mile and do the maintenance to run real carts, why not run it on proper hardware? That's what I personally can't comprehend.

You can talk about fixing original hardware and CRTs all you want, but the older this stuff gets, the less economical that becomes.  No one is forcing you to use Analogue hardware and you are certainly entitled to stick with original hardware all you want, but your rational for it is pretty thin when you argue that 99% accuracy isn't 100%.   That's stubbornness more than it is anything else.  I love original hardware and CRTs as much as anyone (and still use them today), but I've still bought all of Analogue's hardware because it's (currently) the best investment for playing and enjoying these games in the future.  

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2 hours ago, Tulpa said:

But there are limits to what most people can do for a console 30+ years old. The systems are not all living to a ripe old age.

Yes, anyone can clean connectors, but not everyone can recap a console, and we're starting to see those failures, along with chip failures. Optout himself has said he's had three SFCs crap out on him beyond repair.

I mean, there's basic hardware maintenance that everyone should know, but then there's more critical failures that require a more extensive background that not everyone has. If you're expecting every single person in the hobby to pick up a soldering gun and learn this stuff, that IMO is unrealistic.

 

And I'm speaking as someone who has repaired about five NES Vaus controllers, so I know a bit about this stuff. 😛 If Analogue came out with a knockoff of those, I'd ditch my parts collection of those in heartbeat.

 

I also think the "purist" soapbox needs to be put to bed. You use a CRT and original hardware. Good, you do you. Keep them alive.  But constantly proclaiming that you do that is annoying and is not winning you support. Not calling out anyone specifically, but I do see that refrain from a select group that seem to take every opportunity. It just smacks of "hardware shaming."

Don't be a hardware shamer. Be a hobby proclaimer! 😛

Says the "boutique users" 😉 

A lot of entitlement in these boutique machines, the situation with that homebrew game was the classic example. If you want to talk of hardware shaming or not, yeah let's go. I find it constantly annoying how folks are trying to set these imperfect machines on the same level as real hardware, and then there's the snobbery boutique issue as well.

Learning how to make basic repairs like recapping isn't a huge thing, it would be akin to someone repairing their car back in the day, or as I mentioned earlier, a musician changing strings on their guitar.

That's a hobbyist sort of thing. People that can't be assed to do that stuff are more casuals, imo. Nothing wrong with that, but just recognise it for what it is.

 

 

 

Edited by fcgamer
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2 minutes ago, TDIRunner said:

You can talk about fixing original hardware and CRTs all you want, but the older this stuff gets, the less economical that becomes.  No one is forcing you to use Analogue hardware and you are certainly entitled to stick with original hardware all you want, but your rational for it is pretty thin when you argue that 99% accuracy isn't 100%.   That's stubbornness more than it is anything else.  I love original hardware and CRTs as much as anyone (and still use them today), but I've still bought all of Analogue's hardware because it's (currently) the best investment for playing and enjoying these games in the future.  

I remember when Brian's av was thought to be a god, then it couldn't run a homebrew and people got bitchy, lol. I guess original hardware ftw. Similarly, playing games on monitors that make them look shitty, what's honestly the point of playing the game then?

Regarding extended longevity, I'd reckon these games and machines will still function for another 20 or 30 years , proper maintenance here and there. After that point, if not before, I'll definitely be out, and honestly I think you guys will too, so longevity at that point becomes a moot point, but whatever.

In the end , I don't have to understand it, you do whatever makes you happy, and I'll do the same.

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24 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Says the "boutique users" 😉 

A lot of entitlement in these boutique machines, the situation with that homebrew game was the classic example. If you want to talk of hardware shaming or not, yeah let's go. I find it constantly annoying how folks are trying to set these imperfect machines on the same level as real hardware, and then there's the snobbery boutique issue as well.

 

I don't see it alot here. I see it as people adopting new machines as they want to use an HDMI machine for whatever reason (no room for a CRT, wanting to use new hardware.)

And even if they are resorting to snobbery, does it make sense to respond in kind? No, really, it doesn't. It just makes you look petty, and it doesn't sway anyone to your opinion.

Someone has to be the bigger person in this. Why not you? Don't hardware shame. Especially in the thread dedicated to other hardware. You can make a thread extolling the virtues of original hardware and no one would have a problem. But when you swoop into a thread and post about original hardware, it's not appropriate.

And if you're using this as an excuse to get on a soap box, stop. That's not helpful.

 

24 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Learning how to make basic repairs like recapping isn't a huge thing, it would be akin to someone repairing their car back in the day, or as I mentioned earlier, a musician changing strings on their guitar.

I would not call recapping a "basic repair." You have to be very careful, you have to have some knowledge of using a soldering iron.

Not everyone has these abilities.

Just like not everyone has a lift in their garage to repair a car.

24 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

That's a hobbyist sort of thing. People that can't be asses to do that stuff are more casuals, imo. Nothing wrong with that, but just recognise it for what it is.

This hobby has various levels.

 

Expecting everyone to conform to a certain aspect is the "hardware shaming" and elitism that NintendoAge was often accused of.

We're better than that. There's room for everyone.

Edited by Tulpa
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11 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

 

I would not call recapping a "basic repair." You have to be very careful, you have to have some knowledge of using a soldering iron.

Not everyone has these abilities.

Just like not everyone has a lift in their garage to repair a car.

This hobby has various levels.

 

What is your threshold for a "basic repair"?

Using a soldering iron is a fairly basic skill.

And when it comes to actual "electronics compare", replacing capacitors is pretty darn basic if you're dealing with circuit board technology from the 80's or early 90's.  (i.e. through-hole parts, single layer boards, lots of real estate to work with)

 

Determining what a recap requires, from scratch, is certainly not basic -- but for a popular monitor or device, that has a "cap kit" available, they make it straightforward.

 

 

Likening having a $20 soldering iron and supplies, and taking an hour to learn a skill, is nowhere in the league of someone having what they need in their garage to do car repairs...

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30 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Learning how to make basic repairs like recapping isn't a huge thing, it would be akin to someone repairing their car back in the day, or as I mentioned earlier, a musician changing strings on their guitar.

Soldering is a hell of a lot closer to restringing your guitar than it is to repairing your car 😛

I'll grant that not everyone has the eyesight or fine motor skills to do it, though.

But I can also tell that a lot of people scare themselves away from it, thinking they're going to break something, when the simple reality is that the equipment is way more heat-tolerant than people fear and the heat from the soldering iron doesn't really extend that far from the solder point that you're working on actively.

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5 minutes ago, arch_8ngel said:

What is your threshold for a "basic repair"?

Using a soldering iron is a fairly basic skill.

And when it comes to actual "electronics compare", replacing capacitors is pretty darn basic if you're dealing with circuit board technology from the 80's or early 90's.  (i.e. through-hole parts, single layer boards, lots of real estate to work with)

 

Determining what a recap requires, from scratch, is certainly not basic -- but for a popular monitor or device, that has a "cap kit" available, they make it straightforward.

 

 

Likening having a $20 soldering iron and supplies, and taking an hour to learn a skill, is nowhere in the league of someone having what they need in their garage to do car repairs...

I've learned to do soldering to repair Vaus controllers, and it was a bit of a learning experience for someone who has no technical background.

I don't see recapping quite as basic, maybe intermediate. Basic would be anything just requiring a screwdriver, which most people would have. A soldering iron is definitely more specialized.

Can people learn it, yes. I'll grant you it can be learned. But what about reflowing circuits? I think that may be a little more involved.

But I take issue with Dave's assertion that people who don't have the skills as casual. Smacks of the elitism that I think hurts the hobby.

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11 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I don't see it alot here. I see it as people adopting new machines as they want to use an HDMI machine for whatever reason (no room for a CRT, wanting to use new hardware.)

And even if they are resorting to snobbery, does it make sense to respond in kind? No, really, it doesn't. It just makes you look petty, and it doesn't sway anyone to your opinion.

Someone has to be the bigger person in this. Why not you? Don't hardware shame.

And if you're using this as an excuse to get on a soap box, stop. That's not helpful.

 

I would not call recapping a "basic repair." You have to be very careful, you have to have some knowledge of using a soldering iron.

Not everyone has these abilities.

Just like not everyone has a lift in their garage to repair a car.

This hobby has various levels.

 

Expecting everyone to conform to a certain aspect is the "hardware shaming" and elitism that NintendoAge was often accused of.

We're better than that. There's room for everyone.

Using a soldering iron is not a big deal. No need to keep circulating the rumours that it is some ungodly task, even my lady friend learnt to solder to repair guitar amps. Yes, it requires more skill than the average Joe would have, but honestly, I'd place it as a simple skill that would be beneficial to anyone in this hobby, and it's something that almost anyone could learn to do adequately within an afternoon. Let's be honest about it.

Releasing a machine in limited quantities, high price tag, huge demand...you honestly don't think that's going to create some snobbery, whilst I'm running my games on a 30 year old machine hooked to a 30 year old crt? Maybe even some thoughts or feelings of pity?

My point is, if you want to play those games as they were intended, it is original hardware+ crt. That's the authentic experience, and the games look and play best in this way.

If most people are satisfied playing on a modern tv on a clone machine that is fine, but as you yourself stated, no need to hardware shame people. And to be honest, I get more hardware shaming than anyone that runs a boutique machine off a modern tv 😉

 

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Just now, Tulpa said:

I've learned to do soldering to repair Vaus controllers, and it was a bit of a learning experience for someone who has no technical background.

I don't see recapping quite as basic, maybe intermediate. Basic would be anything just requiring a screwdriver, which most people would have. A soldering iron is definitely more specialized.

Can people learn it, yes.

But I take issue with Dave's assertion that people who don't have the skills as casual. Smacks of the elitism that I think hurts the hobby.

Sure, I think that is a bad attitude to spread around.

But I would still categorize it as basic electronics repair, assuming you are talking about working from a "cap kit" (and not needing to diagnose it and source the caps yourself)

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Just now, arch_8ngel said:

Sure, I think that is a bad attitude to spread around.

But I would still categorize it as basic electronics repair, assuming you are talking about working from a "cap kit" (and not needing to diagnose it and source the caps yourself)

It's definitely become easier. But caps is kind of the low hanging fruit. There are other issues with these consoles.

Are new clones perfect? No, and I don't think anyone seriously claims they are. They come close, but not 100%. I fully admit that.

But are old consoles perfect for everyone? Heck, no.

That's why both still exist.

And if someone wants to be a purist, won't they want others to adopt newer consoles? It means more older consoles for them. 😛

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1 minute ago, fcgamer said:

My point is, if you want to play those games as they were intended, it is original hardware+ crt. That's the authentic experience, and the games look and play best in this way.

Not sure I agree with your here, since you're fabricating a bit of a straw man for what the game designers "intended".

They were just guys doing the best they could with the time and tools they had at the time, for use on the hardware of the day (which itself, was quite varied -- as there were some absolutely shit-image-quality screens that were prevalent in the 80's and 90's)

 

"Look and play best" is squarely in the eye of the beholder and is not objectively anchored in whatever your personal original play experience was.

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3 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

I've learned to do soldering to repair Vaus controllers, and it was a bit of a learning experience for someone who has no technical background.

I don't see recapping quite as basic, maybe intermediate. Basic would be anything just requiring a screwdriver, which most people would have. A soldering iron is definitely more specialized.

Can people learn it, yes.

But I take issue with Dave's assertion that people who don't have the skills as casual. Smacks of the elitism that I think hurts the hobby.

Sure, let's head over to the dev community and start chatting about "by scratch" versus "by nesmaker" games.

Same shit, different topic. It never ends though. Should people that go above and beyond in their enthusiasm be recognised or not, or even shamed? Idk.

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4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Releasing a machine in limited quantities, high price tag, huge demand...you honestly don't think that's going to create some snobbery, whilst I'm running my games on a 30 year old machine hooked to a 30 year old crt? Maybe even some thoughts or feelings of pity?

No. I think most people here are pretty accepting of any person who is enthusiastic about games.

If you think people are pitying you for using older consoles, that's a you problem. Don't make it a you problem. Keep doing what you're doing.

5 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

 

My point is, if you want to play those games as they were intended, it is original hardware+ crt. That's the authentic experience, and the games look and play best in this way.

And that's your opinion and that's fine. But to proclaim it as the absolute, that's as big a snobbery as those who tout the new consoles.

And so what if someone wants a more practical modern experience. There's nothing wrong it it.

CRTs and HDTVs both have a place.

6 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

If most people are satisfied playing on a modern tv on a clone machine that is fine, but as you yourself stated, no need to hardware shame people. And to be honest, I get more hardware shaming than anyone that runs a boutique machine off a modern tv

If you're getting that, you need to cut those people out of your life. There's an ignore function if you choose.

This is on you, Dave. You're a tremendous resource when it comes to bootlegs and Famicom, but you really, really need to examine your approach to this.

Unless you just want to argue. Then I would suggest making a thread where that would be more appropriate, and not one about the new consoles.

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1 minute ago, arch_8ngel said:

Not sure I agree with your here, since you're fabricating a bit of a straw man for what the game designers "intended".

They were just guys doing the best they could with the time and tools they had at the time, for use on the hardware of the day (which itself, was quite varied -- as there were some absolutely shit-image-quality screens that were prevalent in the 80's and 90's)

 

"Look and play best" is squarely in the eye of the beholder and is not objectively anchored in whatever your personal original play experience was.

I've heard that Devs took the limitations of the crt into consideration when designing their games. If that is incorrect, please enlighten me, I'll listen. Though that's what I've consistently heard. It was exploiting a machine, so to speak.

With HDMI and the like, it straightens things out, and the old games take a hit since they were exploiting something that now isn't there, blurriness, etc.

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4 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Sure, let's head over to the dev community and start chatting about "by scratch" versus "by nesmaker" games.

Same shit, different topic. It never ends though. Should people that go above and beyond in their enthusiasm be recognised or not, or even shamed? Idk.

Shaming of any type is a poison to the hobby.

We're all trying to row the same direction. We need to support each other, not jump on soap boxes.

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2 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Sure, I will agree with this.

Hey, if it's any consolation, posts from you and other famicom enthusiasts have gotten me into that aspect.

I never would have gotten to know Gradius II if it weren't for you weirdos. (Which I am now one of. ) 😛

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12 minutes ago, Tulpa said:

No. I think most people here are pretty accepting of any person who is enthusiastic about games.

If you think people are pitying you for using older consoles, that's a you problem. Don't make it a you problem. Keep doing what you're doing.

And that's your opinion and that's fine. But to proclaim it as the absolute, that's as big a snobbery as those who tout the new consoles.

And so what if someone wants a more practical modern experience. There's nothing wrong it it.

CRTs and HDTVs both have a place.

If you're getting that, you need to cut those people out of your life. There's an ignore function if you choose.

This is on you, Dave. You're a tremendous resource when it comes to bootlegs and Famicom, but you really, really need to examine your approach to this.

Unless you just want to argue. Then I would suggest making a thread where that would be more appropriate, and not one about the new consoles.

There is nothing wrong with choosing convenience and being pragmatic in a world where crt TVs take up a lot of space, old machines can be unreliable, and all old tech requires maintenance and is prone to fail. No problem at all for doing you, and choosing what suits your lifestyle the best.

That being said, original hardware is greater than emulation, and similarly, original hardware is greater than hardware that is 99% the same (in terms of running the product as intended). Putting snobbery on either side to the side, it's an insult to those that do go the extra mile to maintain hardware and a crt to run it as it originally was, to then say that running from a modern boutique clone on a modern tv will provide an equal experience. It won't , period, maybe both experiences are adequate, fun, and superb, but to say they are truly equal is insulting.

But it is what it is. I think we'd best agree to disagree on this one. 🙂 From my end it's not some sort of snobbery, rather the experiences just aren't the same and therefore shouldn't be treated as such.

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21 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I've heard that Devs took the limitations of the crt into consideration when designing their games. If that is incorrect, please enlighten me, I'll listen. Though that's what I've consistently heard. It was exploiting a machine, so to speak.

With HDMI and the like, it straightens things out, and the old games take a hit since they were exploiting something that now isn't there, blurriness, etc.

Devs working around the limitations of the hardware and the display technology doesn't necessarily mean that it "looks the best it could" on that hardware.

And seriously -- there was SO MUCH VARIATION in the display quality of TV's from that era, and the question of RF vs RCA, etc...  plenty of games looked horrible when played the way a lot of people had their systems configured back then (multiple RF switches, whether you had incoming signal noise on both CH3 and CH4, whether the TV itself was a piece of junk or something nice like a Trinitron)

 

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19 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

(in terms of running the product as intended).

My main gripe is just with your use of "as intended".

Unless you know the development team, you don't know what was "intended" -- you only know the game "as released".

And unless you are playing on the same development equipment they used, you aren't even seeing the same color settings, sharpness, and screen size that they had (again, whether they "intended" anything in that regard, or not).

 

We are talking about commercial products that were subject to a lot of practical limitations (time/money, and technical) that make an attempt to capture what some designer would have liked for the game to be, if it could have been done the way they wanted at all.

Edited by arch_8ngel
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20 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Putting snobbery on either side to the side, it's an insult to those that do go the extra mile to maintain hardware and a crt to run it as it originally was, to then say that running from a modern boutique clone on a modern tv will provide an equal experience. It won't , period, maybe both experiences are adequate, fun, and superb, but to say they are truly equal is insulting.

I think you need to keep a little perspective. Most of us aren't out to kill old hardware. Most people in this thread want an Analogue console not because they are trying to insult you or say that they're absolutely equal. They just want a way to play their SNES games on the same TV as their PS4. 🙂

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15 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

The concept in general is to have a modern system that can accurately (per the FPGA cores loaded) play physical media of the chosen type and automatically upscale it properly, as crisply as possible, and lag free on a modern TV.  When legitimate competitor products are available, the Analogue choice seems to be made at least partially for the same reason that any boutique product is purchased (given the severe price differences between the NT/NT Mini versus the AVS, etc.); they generally have a top notch set of features, but those don't always have as good a price/value ratio as other products which aren't as feature rich.

Official features like being able to play ROMs from an SD card can be highly convenient, but they dont offer the same experience as plugging in your own physical cartridge--even if it's a flash drive.  However, it does come in handy if/when alternate firmware(s) is/are released for each system, allowing ROMs of other systems (since adapters don't exist for anything other than Sega systems and only for the Mega SG) to be played in the same lag-free, upscaled manner with ease.

And, as was mentioned previously, while no current FPGA core has been shown to be 100% accurate to the original hardware, the well known ones have come close enough to perfection (including offering patches and updates to fix issues as they arise and are discovered) that folks enjoy having such systems around as an alternative option to their original hardware in order to keep wear and tear off of the older systems as well as have a modern, near perfect replacement on-hand for when the originals inevitably fail.

I can understand if this doesn't appeal to you, but if you legit don't get what everybody's saying at this point, even if you don't agree yourself, I believe there are larger issues afoot.  😉

Very well said and enough so it seems our friend there kind of gets it now 😄  Look I wasn't sold on them at first either, but I did the run of using RCA etc (pre-HD) on a HD tv as CRTs are crap (yeah that pissed someone off.)  I went as far as using displaylag.com and others to find the best panel I could buy so it wouldn't lag in a noticable way, something in the mid 20s so even punchout and shooters are doable.  But they still didn't look right, or act as responsive due to the conversion factor of low to high output.  The first one I got was my top loader chopped to use the HiDefNES kit from kevin horton(kevtris) and I was blown away.  I could run all my original media in the excellent ways you said, but it also allowed running original FDS stuff audio channels and all without the flaky drive system and magnetic disks, yet you can as a choice too!  From there I got the SuperNT and it's still being actively patched for flaws, they all are, so outside of some really weird outlier issues people have flagged, they're fixed.  It's a nice communal effort, not just one dude and a keyboard.

Between that and using another sourced openly device for GC2HDMI (Gamecube HDMI) the external adapter I can run stuff that ran less hot better than ever expected or intended out side of emulators could attain yet still fall short of.

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3 hours ago, Tulpa said:

I think you need to keep a little perspective. Most of us aren't out to kill old hardware. Most people in this thread want an Analogue console not because they are trying to insult you or say that they're absolutely equal. They just want a way to play their SNES games on the same TV as their PS4. 🙂

And that's something I totally get, especially getting details about it from darkchyled.

The rest though, when arguing whether Devs might have wanted their games to look different than what they did , by applying modern technology, etc - it's all very very George Lucas-esque, and I personally don't like this, as we weren't even on the development team.

As someone who (1) never stopped playing classic (8 bit) games (from 1989 until now) and (2) has never played for lengths of time on a non-crt tv, I personally find that the games don't look right on modern TVs, despite all the witchcraft done to try to improve the look. So I suspect that errrh, no point arguing it anymore, no minds are going to be changed.

But yeah, I appreciate the information about this console, and others' viewpoints, so that I can at least be somewhat knowledgeable of it. Thanks guys 😊

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2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

And that's something I totally get, especially getting details about it from darkchyled.

The rest though, when arguing whether Devs might have wanted their games to look different than what they did , by applying modern technology, etc - it's all very very George Lucas-esque, and I personally don't like this, as we weren't even on the development team.

As someone who (1) never stopped playing classic (8 bit) games (from 1989 until now) and (2) has never played for lengths of time on a non-crt tv, I personally find that the games don't look right on modern TVs, despite all the witchcraft done to try to improve the look. So I suspect that errrh, no point arguing it anymore, no minds are going to be changed.

But yeah, I appreciate the information about this console, and others' viewpoints, so that I can at least be somewhat knowledgeable of it. Thanks guys 😊

I'd posit this one, what really was entirely in their minds as intended?  I don't see it as Lucas like screwing up a good thing.  When those games were created back in the 80s, 90s, pre-HD 00s even, they were done on computers.  Whether that PC was using a CRT or LCD of the period, they are not consumer level TV broadcast drivel.   A nice later 1980s PC CRT would run at 1024x768 or higher, and the image was sharp as an earlier LCD was if not better.  Those games, those sprites and background they were developed with a pixel perfect display without blur, ghosting, smearing, the vaseline glow from hell.  They could see every detail, nuance, pixel, picking every possible color allowed base, or doubly so through bank switching or other trickery using scanline switching.

Fast forward into 3D, perfect example if ever there was one, Gamecube Rogue Squadron 2.  Factor5 at the time in interviews were gloating the fact that Lucasfilm let them use the late 90s CGI movie models as the models for their game.  You don't see this ever on a CRT so much of that beautiful attention to detail is lost, shot to hell.  But, if you run the game using the digital port and the GC2HDMI/Carby adapter for HDMI output, holy crap, it's like WiiU/PS3 era clarity.  Suddenly you can see scorch marks, metal seams, rivets, all on the models.  Even more impressive, those tiny fan blades on the Hoth snow speeders that look all rainbowy and painted on in CRT SD mode...they're not, they all move, each one is detailed and defined and viewable on HDMI.

SO what really is intent?  Why would these developers make such stunning pixels or 3D models to have them lost to a shitty period display only their computers could ever see?  Maybe they hoped one day the tech would catch up and render their beauty in full glory?  That's what these HDMI/FPGA devices allow... recovery of lost detail.  Early emulators VGB from Marat in 1995/96 along with Pasofami, iNES, SNES 96/97 they spoiled me rotten to the loss of detail we put up with.  The only thing I can say that really never improved much, Gameboy, because it had an independent screen, so that crisp sharpness the Pocket, COlor and Advance had, all the same on PC, maybe brighter and more poppy but nothing was hiding out.

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