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fcgamer

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There's no guarantee that Nintendo won't make more NES cartridges either.

We've seen the likes of Data East, Capcom, and even Irem remake their games and re-releasing them these past few years. And I personally consider them in the "Unlicensed" umbrella since they're not approved by Nintendo.

In the early '90s Activision released a whole bunch of their NES games in Brazil. Only, they didn't seek Nintendo's permission and they're unlicensed. Perfectly legitimate games, but entirely unlicensed.

Speaking of Brazil, they have an entire eco-system of grey-area to completely black market bootleg games that people are 100% nostalgic for the same way you and I are nostalgic over Mario, Zelda, and Mega Man.

I promise you, this video is worth a watch:

It's easy to just omit Brazil from a list.

But when you see actual people in an actual place looking at their bootlegs like how we look at our licensed games, you sort of realize that everything matters.

Edited by ThePhleo
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4 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

There's no guarantee that Nintendo won't make more NES cartridges either.

We've seen the likes of Data East, Capcom, and even Irem remake their games and re-releasing them these past few years. And I personally consider them in the "Unlicensed" umbrella since they're not approved by Nintendo.

In the early '90s Activision released a whole bunch of their NES games in Brazil. Only, they didn't seek Nintendo's permission and they're unlicensed. Perfectly legitimate games, but entirely unlicensed.

Speaking of Brazil, they have an entire eco-system of grey-area to completely black market bootleg games that people are 100% nostalgic for the same way you and I are nostalgic over Mario, Zelda, and Mega Man.

I promise you, this video is worth a watch:

It's easy to just omit Brazil from a list.

But when you see actual people in an actual place looking at their bootlegs like how we look at our licensed games, you sort of realize that everything matters.

And those games, in perfect sealed condition, aren't worth nearly as much because they're not licensed by Nintendo, only by the developer.

I guess I could explain it using my other collecting focus, Transformers. Recently Hasbro opened up their vaults, took their 1984 moulds off the shelf and actually remade their original Transformers toys from 36 years ago. Yes, you can go to a store right now and buy an original 1984 Soundwave / Starscream / Blaster / Optimus in original packaging and original materials, fully licensed by Hasbro. Since the reintroduction of these figures in the last few years, and the introduction of the Masterpiece line, values of vintage figures has plummeted to around half of when I started collecting. The original vintage figures had value in the confidence that Hasbro wouldn't make more but since then, new collectors would rather have the new one than the old one because both products are identical. Both are licensed, both from the same mould, both with the same materials. Now you can't sell an original vintage figure for more than the price of a new one on the shelf.

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You're saying that any bootleg is equivalent to any other, that is patently false. Not simply because of the "quality" in terms of the physical materials used to make the items, but the "quality" in terms of the "qualitative" difference between a genuine contemporary artifact from an bygone period of time, and a modern product.

Factually, there is a difference between an item made 30 years ago and an item made today, both in terms of provenance and in terms of the "qualitative" material of the object. 

You may consider any bootleg, or perhaps any ROM on a flash card to be equivalent, but a whole world of collectors do not. Licensing is a small portion of a huge pie in ascribed value.

If you can't understand why that is, well, your loss. But, I will repeat my challenge. Find me this game for the cost of postage, and I will eat my words:

IMG_20200919_005053.thumb.jpg.af2564266caeda189818b7f7f846381f.jpg

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45 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I used Tengen games as examples because they have licensed versions. Panesian are different because they are the only copy of that game, there is no licensed version, so those have value in obscurity. My point is when a licensed version exists, a bootleg of that made 30 years ago is no more valuable than a bootleg made yesterday, they're both identical products.

I'd be totally willing to listen to how these 2 products are different but nobody has yet explained it. The only reasons we have gotten so far are:

  • The materials are better than products today. So does that mean if I made a bootleg with better materials that it would be worth a whole lot of money? No, nobody would want a bootleg if I made it, no matter what it was made of.
  • The bootlegs were made by specific companies no longer in business. Okay, so by your logic, if I incorporated a company today (I already have a few companies in my name so I could just use one of those), and made bootlegs of Little Samson, would those be worth anything in 30 years? No, nobody would care about a bootleg some guy with a no-name company made. 

What I'm saying is the only assignment of value in this case is from the assurance that more won't be printed. And nobody can stop me nor the original manufacturer of the bootleg from just making more so I'm confused how they can be valuable.

Though now that I think of your Panesian example, it may be transferable in this case. There's no current guarantee Panesian won't make more of their games and those hold a lot of value but maybe that's the reason I haven't purchased any. None of us know if they'll simply make more.

Either you should learn to read, or should I? I'm pretty sure I remember it being mentioned that being contemporary was a huge part of it all, therefore leading to nostalgia in many regions where those games weren't officially released. Am I crazy for remembering this?!?

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26 minutes ago, OptOut said:

You're saying that any bootleg is equivalent to any other, that is patently false. Not simply because of the "quality" in terms of the physical materials used to make the items, but the "quality" in terms of the "qualitative" difference between a genuine contemporary artifact from an bygone period of time, and a modern product.

Factually, there is a difference between an item made 30 years ago and an item made today, both in terms of provenance and in terms of the "qualitative" material of the object. 

You may consider any bootleg, or perhaps any ROM on a flash card to be equivalent, but a whole world of collectors do not. Licensing is a small portion of a huge pie in ascribed value.

If you can't understand why that is, well, your loss. But, I will repeat my challenge. Find me this game for the cost of postage, and I will eat my words:

IMG_20200919_005053.thumb.jpg.af2564266caeda189818b7f7f846381f.jpg

Currently I cannot. My concern is that I cannot spend a lot of money on something like this without the confidence that it will not just be bootlegged again by the same or a similar company tomorrow. This may be how we are different, maybe you can spend the money with no confidence of that but I do know if more copies were made tomorrow, the value of yours would plummet. See below.

8 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Either you should learn to read, or should I? I'm pretty sure I remember it being mentioned that being contemporary was a huge part of it all, therefore leading to nostalgia in many regions where those games weren't officially released. Am I crazy for remembering this?!?

Look at this scenario.

Currently today, people may want a bootleg copy of game X because of nostalgia for their childhood having that game. I'm not denying that and I'm not denying that they could be willing to pay $100 for this bootleg. I'm saying that if I ramped up production of the exact same game, using the same materials and sold it at Wal-Mart or some other main store for $10, people would see it and say, "Oh cool, I remember this as a kid. It's only $10? I'll buy it!" Then a week later you show them your vintage copy of the game to sell to them for $100 and the guy says, "No thanks, I got one at Wal-Mart for $10."

Your $100 value in the game has disappeared, you can no longer sell it at that price. I have obliterated the value by simply making more. It's fear of this scenario which will always keep prices low on these bootlegs and many people would not want to pay too much for them, that's why I think the value is not there. Am I wrong?

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9 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Currently I cannot. My concern is that I cannot spend a lot of money on something like this without the confidence that it will not just be bootlegged again by the same or a similar company tomorrow. This may be how we are different, maybe you can spend the money with no confidence of that but I do know if more copies were made tomorrow, the value of yours would plummet. See below.

Look at this scenario.

Currently today, people may want a bootleg copy of game X because of nostalgia for their childhood having that game. I'm not denying that and I'm not denying that they could be willing to pay $100 for this bootleg. I'm saying that if I ramped up production of the exact same game, using the same materials and sold it at Wal-Mart or some other main store for $10, people would see it and say, "Oh cool, I remember this as a kid. It's only $10? I'll buy it!" Then a week later you show them your vintage copy of the game to sell to them for $100 and the guy says, "No thanks, I got one at Wal-Mart for $10."

Your $100 value in the game has disappeared, you can no longer sell it at that price. I have obliterated the value by simply making more. It's fear of this scenario which will always keep prices low on these bootlegs and many people would not want to pay too much for them, that's why I think the value is not there. Am I wrong?

Absolutely you are wrong, because there is no chance whatsoever of an equivalent product being produced. These are not 3.5V flash chips coming out of a factory in Shenzhen by the million. They are mask ROM's produced by LONG defunct companies, with often cases unique art assets, code modifications and shell designs that will never be reproduced in the same manner.

You are simply ignorant of the material items we are discussing. It's not even a matter of value, in terms of money, frankly. It is value in terms of sentiment and the qualitative spirit of the items we are collecting. 

Anyway, it is clear we are talking past each other at this point. The same reason I couldn't give a flying toss about what print run Super Mario Bros. I own is the same reason you couldn't care less about a bootleg. Different strokes.

Edited by OptOut
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27 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

Currently I cannot. My concern is that I cannot spend a lot of money on something like this without the confidence that it will not just be bootlegged again by the same or a similar company tomorrow. This may be how we are different, maybe you can spend the money with no confidence of that but I do know if more copies were made tomorrow, the value of yours would plummet. See below.

Look at this scenario.

Currently today, people may want a bootleg copy of game X because of nostalgia for their childhood having that game. I'm not denying that and I'm not denying that they could be willing to pay $100 for this bootleg. I'm saying that if I ramped up production of the exact same game, using the same materials and sold it at Wal-Mart or some other main store for $10, people would see it and say, "Oh cool, I remember this as a kid. It's only $10? I'll buy it!" Then a week later you show them your vintage copy of the game to sell to them for $100 and the guy says, "No thanks, I got one at Wal-Mart for $10."

Your $100 value in the game has disappeared, you can no longer sell it at that price. I have obliterated the value by simply making more. It's fear of this scenario which will always keep prices low on these bootlegs and many people would not want to pay too much for them, that's why I think the value is not there. Am I wrong?

Yeah that's definitely related to nes boots, not what we're talking about.

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Graphics Team · Posted

@Code Monkey - my apologies if I'm speaking out-of-turn here, but I might be able to offer some helpful food-for-thought. Based on your posts in several threads like this one, it seems like you're often frustrated when other collectors don't value games/collectibles the same way you do (whether it be regarding licensing, print-runs, etc.). I totally understand this frustration, and I feel it myself all the time (for example, bootlegs aren't worth anything to me personally, either). But then I realize that these different sets of values are what makes collecting so diverse and interesting. It's cool to see people get excited over their interests, even if they aren't in line with my own. I don't care how many screws are in my NES games or if the latest homebrew was made with NESMaker, but I'm happy when other people care. It adds a depth to the hobby that wouldn't be there if everyone collected the same way for the same reasons. 

Overall, try to be excited for other collectors when they discuss what they like. To say that their interests are worthless or have no value can be a bummer, so try to have a more constructive/positive approach to things, and see why people appreciate what they collect.

-CasualCart

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Hopefully this doesn’t come off as too harsh, but the collecting world doesn’t just revolve around the US and what they think is valuable.

While the majority of the members here are from the US, a lot of us international peeps couldn’t give a toss over some sticker on a US Mario or some bike that came with a SNES game. You guys do you and we’ll do us.

To a lot of people these bootlegs are their nostalgia and just like someone will pay for a good price for a CIB Mario someone will pay a good price for a bootleg.

It would be very hard to replicate a lot of these bootlegs because they have an identity just like a NES game does. 

Someone could come along and make a reproduction of a bootleg, but those would be noticeable to a fan just like a reproduction game is to a NES fan.

A true NES/famicom collector in Asia doesn’t want a reproduction, they want the real bootleg and are willing to pay for it.

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You know what I’d really like?  An example of these exorbitant bootleg prices.  And a one off is probably gonna be cute but damn if it wouldn’t be nice to have some sort of systemic example.

edit:  shucks.  It’s all just so mysterious.

Edited by Hammerfestus
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11 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

You know what I’d really like?  An example of these exorbitant bootleg prices.  And a one off is probably gonna be cute but damn if it wouldn’t be nice to have some sort of systemic example.

edit:  shucks.  It’s all just so mysterious.

Super Maruo is one, also Mario IV.

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9 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Super Maruo is one, also Mario IV.

I’m serious.  I’d like an example.  If it’s such a developed market that no one here has ever heard about I feel like it would be really relevant to at least give us a hint of what’s happening in bootleg land from mr big himself

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1 hour ago, Hammerfestus said:

I’m serious.  I’d like an example.  If it’s such a developed market that no one here has ever heard about I feel like it would be really relevant to at least give us a hint of what’s happening in bootleg land from mr big himself

I was serious! They’re hard to find bootlegs that are collectible 

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6 hours ago, CasualCart said:

@Code Monkey - my apologies if I'm speaking out-of-turn here, but I might be able to offer some helpful food-for-thought. Based on your posts in several threads like this one, it seems like you're often frustrated when other collectors don't value games/collectibles the same way you do (whether it be regarding licensing, print-runs, etc.). I totally understand this frustration, and I feel it myself all the time (for example, bootlegs aren't worth anything to me personally, either). But then I realize that these different sets of values are what makes collecting so diverse and interesting. It's cool to see people get excited over their interests, even if they aren't in line with my own. I don't care how many screws are in my NES games or if the latest homebrew was made with NESMaker, but I'm happy when other people care. It adds a depth to the hobby that wouldn't be there if everyone collected the same way for the same reasons. 

Overall, try to be excited for other collectors when they discuss what they like. To say that their interests are worthless or have no value can be a bummer, so try to have a more constructive/positive approach to things, and see why people appreciate what they collect.

-CasualCart

You're not wrong. I have an obsession with needing to understand things and I'll never understand this.

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