The NESMaker Distinction

[Orab Games | 97]

SoleGoose is definitely a friend of mine as well. We got into the scene about the same time, so we have a very similar experience to the community. However, we have A LOT of different views on many different topics but in no way do I judge him for that nor do I attack him for it. I respect his opinion and I assume he respects mine as well as he has never given me any indication that he doesn't. I try to give this benefit of the doubt to everyone. If for some reason I don't or I let my emotions get the best of me, I try to apologize quickly and sincerely. Like many others, SoleGoose does a lot of good things for the community. He is very passionate about this hobby and community.

In the end, I think developers all have the same goals in this hobby, regardless of the tools we use or don't use. Make games, play games, discuss games, make friends, and have fun! I enjoy watching others succeed and I enjoy being able to support when I can or how I can.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Orab Games

[Raftronaut | 100]

Ahhh I see. 

Well, I think leaving it up to the developer is a fine stance to take personally. Devs that program their games from the ground up wil automatically bake that into the narrative their game is attached to. I think all of us here are sincerely interested in the development narrative of any homebrew, as well I think the greater homebrew buying public is as well (not just the devs) as proven spectacularly by the Micro Mages KS launch video...

Seriously? A 5 minute tech video? Hell Yes! That video was a brilliant move that wrangled people's attention, mainly because it created the narrative of a passion for game creation, ingenuity and craftsmanship. I've shared that video with more people who couldn't care less about NES games who found it highly fascinating from a design perspective or technical narrative perspective. Animator's, Arists, filmmakers, musicians, doesn't matter, people find that creation process interesting. 

I think if a Dev takes the time to properly learned to code in ASM and how to deal appropriately with the other swath of limitations necessary to release a NES game, that fact should be displayed proudly if the dev chooses. We should all celebrate that in fact, but is it relevant to whether or not the game is good? NO, absolutely not, but we love to have these narratives because we love the stories behind their creation. I for one am a sucker on the deeper details of NES homebrew development. I listen to Beau's podcast religiously and highly respect his contributions to the scene and his efforts have fundamentally cemented my interest in the homebrew scene as a whole. I listen to his show (and Kevin's) for exactly these types of stories. In Mugi's case, Nesmaker is very much a part of Dimension Shift's story, yet Dimension shift should not be defined by nesmaker if the tool is no longer being used in it's development. The seeds of DS were planted with Nesmaker sure, that's a part of DS's narrative now, and a huge inspiration to many of us in the NM' scene as we continue to finish our projects. If Mugi feels that his game is no longer a nesmaker game, we should all listen to him I feel...

That being said, my project  proudly flies the flag for Nesmaker, I'll make no misconceptions about my current training-wheel status in the community. I've received a lot of help and support from fellow nesmakers and have made many good friends along the way. Yes, many of us are just getting our feet wet, some in programming, some in assets, some in design but we're all hungry and ready to get involved. Most, if not all of us look up to Beau's wave of homebrewers with awe, not one of us would take away how much blood/sweat/(tears maybe?) went into the games that were programmed from the ground up in ASM. Since i've gotten invested in Nesmaker I also started buying homebrews as well in order to support the community I am inspired by (many of your own games out there) which is true of many Nesmakers as well. Many of us (myself included) are late comers to the scene and are more than happy to pick up the new KS campaigns or pre orders from the greater community, discuss them on our threads, provide encouragement or outreach where we can.  If I can simply point out that insisting on the distinction creates an atmosphere of US vs. THEM however unintentional it may be to it's initial implications. We all certainly feel it on the NM side, that is for certain. Mugi pointed this out earlier as well..Many of us (myself included) are understanding of the context given the circumstances of the greater world of NES homebrew, but at the end of day....literally everyone on the NM side is just trying to make NES games the people that frequent this site would enjoy... 

Final point, if ANYONE tried to release a Nesmaker-made game telling people they coded it themselves that should be met with clear derision and disdain, not only would that be incredibly easy to prove, it would be entirely disingenuous on their part and dealt with accordingly. Though cases like that I ASSURE YOU ALL will be in the extreme minority if at all. 

All of us here on this forum want to know how games are made, why don't we simply push for continued transparency within the community when it comes to relaying our production narratives? This is basically what we are all interested in anyway. 

****3 cups of coffee in today and basically just throwing paint at the wall here... probably TL;DR.... lol ...Happy Friday, looking forward to cracking open my copy of spook-o-tron tonight! 

[Raftronaut | 100]

52 minutes ago, FrankenGraphics said:

A lot of it probably has to do with the efforts of high quality homebrews and high quality campaigns like NEScape, Twin Dragons, Nebs n Debs and Micro Mages. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if NESmaker added a considerable chunk to that awareness cloud as well. 
 

I will attest that this is 100% true of my situation 

[Deadeye | 1,595]

@Gloves , that is very true.  VGS was a fresh start in users, content, and policy.  To that point, the purpose of this thread, IMO, was to figure out what to do and get everything out on the table. 

To my knowledge, there is no current policy to label NM games differently or not. I consider, Beau a friend much like @Scrobins does.  He stated his opinion, did not attack anyone, and let the discussion go from there.  So please, try to keep the discussion on track.

To me personally, labels are good for information.  I will look at each game itself.  However, I can see where labels can come with assumptions for some people.  I am a very grey area person though.  I don't have a hard line in many of my opinions.  To that, I can see where labels mean certain things and if you differ from that meaning, that is a different classification.  Back to my opinion, I am very loose with classifications, meanings, etc.  Others are not.  They matter a lot to them.

Some people will read this thread and be informed and maybe change their stance in one way or another.  Others, on the fringe, won't.  Seeing this, no matter how much you discuss, it won't get every single person to agree to one thing.  

Going back to an earlier post I wrote, how do you move forward.  Is it left up to the thread creator, the dev, is there a vote on what to do, or is there a VGS policy created.

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Deadeye

[fcgamer | 4,719]

I think the title of this thread itself though can be seen as a bit elitist, or negative though, especially with everyone knowing the backstory to how we got here. If no back story, the initial post would have been much more descriptive.

[Mugi | 83]

since this whole mess started because of my project, i have now added a post in the Dimension Shift project thread detailing the development process of the game, along with tools used, and a reason for why i do not wish for this game to be classified as a nesmaker game. Feel free to ask questions in that thread if there are any.

[Orab Games | 97]

25 minutes ago, Mugi said:

since this whole mess started because of my project, i have now added a post in the Dimension Shift project thread detailing the development process of the game, along with tools used, and a reason for why i do not wish for this game to be classified as a nesmaker game. Feel free to ask questions in that thread if there are any.

No mess, we are just being educated by your process! Please don't feel like you have to defend you work. I am really enjoying that thread.

[Mugi | 83]

no sweat really, though im obviously overly defensive of the project as i have poured my heart and soul into it every day for the past year

either way, I suppose I'll just have to deal with it since my project is indeed a pioneer of the whole process of "breaking out of nesmaker" in a way.

there are multiple projects, such as soko banana that have been worked through nesmaker and contain a lot of handwritten assembly to go with them, but i believe dimension shift is

truly the first and currently only game that fully evolved outside of nesmaker and now simply uses it as a tool in the toolchain instead of building around it.

[Orab Games | 97]

There will be praise and criticism to each project. It's very difficult not to take any of it personally. Just know, people are going to have opinions and that is ok. As long as you enjoy the process and are happy with the result, that is all that matters. 

[Mugi | 83]

3 minutes ago, Orab Games said:

There will be praise and criticism to each project. It's very difficult not to take any of it personally. Just know, people are going to have opinions and that is ok. As long as you enjoy the process and are happy with the result, that is all that matters. 

i hae no idea what im doing but it's been fun so far so it's all fun and games, hehe.

[Orab Games | 97]

41 minutes ago, Mugi said:

i hae no idea what im doing but it's been fun so far so it's all fun and games, hehe.

Here's a secret, many of us don't know what we are doing, including me!

[CMR | 518]

I just want to point out that any stigma people might have for GameMaker at this point is meaningless.  It's a professional development tool, and high quality games are being made with it and getting physical releases on modern consoles.  I hope that NESmaker can eventually live up to it's example, and if the games being made and kickstarted with it are any indication, it may just do it.  If you've worked hard on your game, and made something exceptional then take pride in it.  Have faith in your effort.   People using your tools as an excuse to try and devalue it just makes them look jealous.

And for the record, I was also worried in the beginning that it would result in a slew crappy games being sold as overpriced collectables.  Thankfully that hasn't been the case at all.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

I'd like to revisit labels a bit, as I had a thought as I was falling asleep about the whole thing.

I'm currently writing a book on Famiclone games, and for 99% of the content, I am playing the software and taking screenshots directly off of real (original print) cartridges, on real (period) machines. For the few items that I don't personally have access to, I will be figuring out an alternative method. How does this relate at all to the nes maker discussion?

In the past I've seen samples of a lot of comparable books on the market, such as Pat Contris guide, Jeffery Wittenhagens guide, and a few others (maybe three or four total). Some of those books (I don't remember which) had used (some, anyways, not sure about all) stock photos, grabbed from a Google images first page search. I know this because I saw two products with the same exact image, which also happened to be on the first page of Google Images. Heck, I'd go so far as to suggest that the image in question was grabbed more than likely from an emulator.

So should we bestow on such hobbyist projects, which folks put countless hours of effort into, terms such as "uses stock photos" and "screenshots from emulators" ? To me, the answer is an immediate "Hell no!". Sure, I feel that running real carts on real hardware, by yourself, would possibly yield a better result, that's just my opinion and thus the way I chose to do my project. No need to get uppity about it though, or to demand that those doing it in a "more easy way" have their products labelled in such unendearing terms, especially when we're all in this hobby together, we should be supporting items based on merit, and encouraging people to create more new products.

The situation I outlined above I think can be applied nicely to the nes maker /"from scratch but not really, as those guys used tools too" situation, just showing how bad the labels thing really does look.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

4 hours ago, CMR said:

And for the record, I was also worried in the beginning that it would result in a slew crappy games being sold as overpriced collectables.  Thankfully that hasn't been the case at all.

I'd love to see how many crappy games came out, developed from scratch during the pre nes maker days. I'd reckon that a lot if the veterans who are concerned about the whole new maker thing, also created and published a few less-than-stellar items early on. It just makes the whole gatekeeping thing even more rediculous imo.

[Orab Games | 97]

6 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I'd love to see how many crappy games came out, developed from scratch during the pre nes maker days. I'd reckon that a lot if the veterans who are concerned about the whole new maker thing, also created and published a few less-than-stellar items early on. It just makes the whole gatekeeping thing even more rediculous imo.

Earlier released game are a completely different thing. The main difference, they weren't cranking out crapware just to make a quick buck. Many of those devs made little money on their games and what money was made was used that to fund the hobby and given back to the community. Back then, there wasn't the number of resources, technology, and the vast amount of knowledge about the system. In just the 5 years that I have been involved in it, so much more is available than when I started thanks to these pioneers. It is so much easier for a new dev to jump right in and make a quality game on their first attempt. There is a reason that you don't see too many people selling games like Tic-Tac-XO or Sudoku anymore. Back then, many were still sacrificing real NES games and burning new roms. It was also very difficult to test games on real hardware, so games were naturally much simpler as devs learned more. As a result, funding these few less-than-steller earlier games funded and fueled the fantastic games we are seeing today as devs learned more and shared more from their experiences.

But, there was a time when we had a few devs\publishers were cranking out multiple games out in a year. Many of these games were $60+ and gave you about 5 minutes of ok gameplay and then the game was over. Some felt very much like tech demos or beta versions. A few were worth putting on a cart, but maybe at half the price. These devs\publishers also never gave anything (or very little) back to the community and there is a reason that none of them are around the hobby today. They made their buck and moved on to the next money grab.

It is very understandable that the community worries about this happening again. Homebrews have recovered quite nicely since then and have expanded very well, but there was a short time when many people were burned by this and become very stringent with what they supported. At one time, people were lapping up every single game that came out! Forum threads had dozens of "take my money" posts. LE auctions were going for $400-$500! With the introduction of a tool that made it even easier for anyone to crank out games, people became worried. Heck, in my early days before I sold a game, I once told "It's so easy! Just put a number on the box and profit!" That really burned me with that person and I stopped supporting them. Then there was the result of the flood of too much crap. Sales dipped for all devs\publishers. LEs that had a bunch of time, effort, and money put into them were selling close to RE prices and losing money. That is when the fly-by-night devs flew the coop.

I think success of Micro Mages and that demo video really helped right the ship for NES Homebrews. I know many devs have hit the gaming expos really hard these past few years and have done very well at spreading the word. Limited Run Games getting into the NES market was also a nice little boom to the hobby. There has also been a HUGE uptick quality homebrews, which both excites me and kills my pocketbook! I don't know if it is intentional or not, but the rate that new games come out has leveled off to a controllable state. But, games like Dimension Shift gives me hope that NESMaker is being used to make quality games. As Mugi has learned, you have to go beyond the software's limitations to make a super polished game. It is great software to get your feet wet, create a few projects, and enter into the hobby, but ultimately, it still isn't quite there to crank out dozens of unique quality games. It is unfortunate that the days are gone when a new dev could release a smaller unpolished product to get a little startup income to fuel future projects, but that is just the nature of the beast. I think that has more shifted to free-will donation or free rom downloads. Twin Dragons and Nebs N' Debs are great examples of how that can work! Customers love free demos.

To wrap up this wall of text, my initial fears of the software have mostly subsided as I see the market respond to the games that are being released over the last 2 years. It really has been an incredibly fun ride and I can't wait to see what the future holds!

[FrankenGraphics | 104]

Quote

"from scratch but not really, as those guys used tools too" 

The "used tools too" in this case is having a canvas, a piece of charcoal, a brush, and and a palette to put colours on. But you have to find the motif. You have to do the first initial sketch. You have to find out what works for the composition in your mind. Getting those first initial strokes out on the canvas is the hardest part, but the reward is a personal expression will come easier in the end, because there's a wider field of personal variance. 

While you can theoretically do a lot of things with NESmaker, it's main appeal is having a bunch of canvases with the charcoal lines defined for you. You can negotiate them or even ignore them, hypothetically, but that's the best analogy i can think of. 

An unofficial mission statement for NESmaker could be: "make nes development more available by factoring out the hard part". And that's amazing. It also opens up to being able to develop certain types of games in shorter time, which could sometimes even be appealing to NESdev veterans if they gave it a chance. Just remember that in nes development, you're always trading something for something. 

This is why the focus on tools is disorienting. The thing that really matters is: engines, drivers, libraries. Probably in that order.

The thing about engines is, it's a lot more formative on a limited system where just about every feature engine thrives at the expense of another feature. You can make just about whichever game you want in unity. You can't in an NES engine. Every engine is super distinct, and that's the charm.

Edited November 16, 2019 by FrankenGraphics

[FrankenGraphics | 104]

1 hour ago, Orab Games said:

Earlier released game are a completely different thing. The main difference, they weren't cranking out crapware just to make a quick buck. Many of those devs made little money on their games and what money was made was used that to fund the hobby and given back to the community. Back then, there wasn't the number of resources, technology, and the vast amount of knowledge about the system

This. The early hacks, demos and original homebrew games might have been modest, but they were driving the scene forwards. they helped fill in gaps in the life-essential documentation, espablish detailed knowhow, channels of communication, and an end user base for nes homebrew. 

PartyTimeHXLNT says it best. She also talks about the importance of welcoming new people to the scene and the resources. 

Timecode jumps straight to how homebrew scenes mature, but the whole talk is fantastic. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by FrankenGraphics

[fcgamer | 4,719]

@FrankenGraphics ok I will watch that video in a bit, thanks for the recommendation.

@Orab Games : I quite enjoyed reading the long post of yours; however, I'd have to politely disagree on a bunch of it, for numerous reasons.

If we go back to the Nintendo Age days, there was a post that I remember very clearly. In that post, it had been mentioned that at that time, little (profit) was being made from those doing homebrews. In fact, that was one of the main driving forces surrounding the idea of the "limited edition" carts, something which I've always personally hated (since I'm a full set - style collector). Although I don't remember specific titles, some of the limited stuff that was auctioned was quite elaborate. Why do I bring this up? Because this is just one instance of the phrase I've heard numerous times over the years, that making homebrew games is not particularly profitable (barring a few exceptions, I'd guess).

Keeping this in mind, it feels rather strange how it went from not particularly profitable to something that is so profitable, people can use a tool like NES maker to crank out a turd and get rich in no time flat. Does anyone here honestly believe that? Especially in light of what was said in the previous paragraph?

Yes, it has certainly gotten easier over the years, with more documentation, the availability of new PCBs and shells, tools that are more user friendly for beginners, etc. At the end of the day though, it still requires a lot of work to put a game release together, period. The person needs to draw graphics, compose music, program (or use nes maker), design a box, design labels, design manuals, solder chips and components to PCBs, buy a rom programmer, market the product so that others will invest in it or purchase it. Yes, a few people will be ambitious enough to do this just for a few dollars, though I'd reckon that if the profits were as great as what people seem to be making it out to be, and if it was as easy to do as what seems to be suggested, then everyone would be doing it. Oddly enough, this hasn't been the case at all, I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Regarding earlier homebrew guys and the earlier items they produced, the quality, etc: Here is my thing, it's a bit hypocritical to say that they get a pass since they had less to work to with, and that folks joining now must all crank out Mona Lisa's. A beginner is a beginner no matter what, and it's to be expected that a person's earlier works might not be as good as their later ones. But the public expectations shouldn't be set so high as to keep beginners from stepping on the stage, so to speak. 

Also, when discussing this whole thing, I'd like to point out about folks like Sivak or the guy behind the Halloween games, or we could even throw something like Color Dreams from back in the day into the mix, or anyone else. What I mean is, I'd venture a guess that a lot of the "from scratch" guys made their own engines as well, which they reuse to aid in their later products. Yes, I'm sure the engines may be tweaked and updated, but it's still reuse. Isn't this akin to what Mugi did, started with an engine and then updated it, even so much as now moving away from it? I guess what I'm saying is that if a guy reuses an engine they previously built and used in another project, can the later release really be considered from scratch? What if the guy let's his brother or friend use the engine to make a new game, what about then?

Therein lies the problem as a whole. From what has been posted throughout this entire thread, we are quickly reaching a point of creating different rules and expectations for different people. The easiest way around this is to let everyone who wants to have a go, let people be artists and express themselves via homebrew games on old machines, and let people judge each item and purchase it based on its merits.

 

 

[dale_coop | 162]

Label or not... personally, I don’t care if a game is made from scratch or via tools like NESMaker.
It the creator of the game is sincere with his creation.
Everyone started with a tutorial, a guide, code examples to start making his first games.
 

[Orab Games | 97]

Homebrews are still not profitable. Yes, there are outliers, but as a whole, I'm not quitting my day job any time soon to write NES games, with or without NESMaker. No one (maybe a couple?) is making a living wage selling homebrews. At most, its a bit of extra pocket cash for some. Others, its an investment into future games or promotions. I can tell you that by the end of sales of Tailgate Party, I lost money if you include everything that went into it, such as trips to expos to promote the game and taxes. If I didn't make an LE, I would have went even further into the hole. Sure, we can look at Kickstarter numbers like Project Blue and go WOW! $42,000! That's amazing. However, 50% of that cost will most likely be material+shipping. Then there is the cost of advertising and promotions. And at the end of it, everyone involved in the project splits the rest and then taxes are paid. By the end of it, I would be surprised if a single person makes more that $5000 after everything is deducted. And that is after many MONTHS of work. You aren't feeding a family making $5000 a year. I know a few people who have tried to make this a full time job and gave up pretty quickly and returned to the workforce. There are a few examples of some who are making this work, but I really don't know how successful they are as I have never talked to them about it. However, during the peak of homebrews being pushed out, there we some who figured out squeeze the lemon pretty well. Were people getting rich? Hell no! That is why they got out of the game so quickly. The problem was consumers were still spending $60+ to buy this junk. And then, a good homebrew would be released around the same time and suffer. There were some people just getting into looking to buy homebrews and were turned away with the disappointment of the quality of these games.

Yes, I do believe early devs do get a pass. Simply because they were the ones who reversed engineered much of the system, wrote tutorials, created hardware, and spent all of their free time making all of this available to the public to make games. And they took years of research just to get to that point! That is much different than cranking out 12 subpar games in a year to cash in on a fad. To me, it is no different then every Tom, Dick, and Harry selling cheap Chinese fidget spinners. Yes, I am WELL aware what it takes to build and fund your own homebrew. I did, I spent the money on materials, I risked money in hopes that I didn't go negative, I didn't ask for the money up front, I wrote the code, I drew the graphics, I designed the box, I designed the manual, I designed the label, I invested in 2 programmers and test some test boards, I did all of the marketing, I programmed every board, I assembled every cart, I drove each game to the post office, etc. The only thing I didn't do was compose the music and write a music engine, but I did have to share sales money with him (dammit Zi!)! I did start trying to write a music engine until I figured out that I was out of my league. I wanted to do it that way at least one time for my own personal reasons. Would I do it that way again? Most likely not! But, I wanted to experience as much as I could the first time. That takes nothing away from those who are using NESMaker today. I fully admit, if that software was available in 2014, you can bet I would have bought it. I am happy to see that NESMaker is bringing more people into the hobby. It is awesome! However, I can still have reserves on the issue of crapware being shoveled out again. But as I mentioned earlier, those concerns are pretty much gone due to projects like Mugi's. That project fascinates me and I loved that he is sharing it. I will be one of the first with money in hand to support Mugi.

Also, I fail to see how this entire thread shows that we are "creating different rules and expectations for different people." as you put it. In fact, when I read this thread, I get the opposite feel. Again, we can agree to disagree. I know neither of us will change our stance based on what the other says. All I can say is, my initial reserves or NESMaker were not warranty and I have really enjoyed seeing what some of these guys are doing. To me, it is just another tool in the arsenal and maybe one day, I'll give it a look. As of now, I have little to no interest in it as I sort of have my process figured out.

[Mugi | 83]

32 minutes ago, Orab Games said:

. I will be one of the first with money in hand to support Mugi.

 

honestly though, while i can't really put into words how much this sort of faith means to me as a starting hobbyist, if i would want to print money by making a game, NES game would be the last type of game I would make. I really just wanted to make a game.... Which has a stage select, Like Shatterhand.

that is literally THE reason I wanted to make a NES game.

 

Yes copies of DS will be put into cartridges and sold for those who are capable of getting past the fact that NESmaker was used and wish to purchase a copy, but honestly, money is the absolutely last thing that drives us forward in making this game.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Mugi

[FrankenGraphics | 104]

Quote

Homebrews are still not profitable. Yes, there are outliers, but as a whole, I'm not quitting my day job any time soon to write NES games, with or without NESMaker. 

This, so much. For a niche hobby like NES development, you can pretty much count on landing in minus for almost every release, if you factor in the work as a cost. It's a for-loss venture you do because you really want to, not because there is money in it. 

Just the plugins for the video project is 200 usd in yearly subscription. Then there's the cost of other studio tools. Which is not so bad when you split it across a lot of projects including revenue:able freelance stuff, but for most homebrew campaigns, this is not an option. 

Maybe more indicative of the marketing costs: i was able to schedule 9 days of salary-work that month; the rest of my days was spent on campaigning. I really enjoyed staying in touch with all the fantastic people coming to support us, and acquiring some new skills along the way, but i felt i could have used even more time to make it as good as i wanted it to. 

Then, the game has been been in development for ~3 years on donnys side and ~2 and 1/2 years on mine. Not even remotely full-time of course, but suffice it to say i wouldn't have been able to keep working on more than NES project unless i had arranged my lifestyle accordingly by living in a collective and cutting my fixed expenses down to almost half, which affords me to take time off from a full-month work schedule. 



 

Edited November 16, 2019 by FrankenGraphics

[fcgamer | 4,719]

@Orab Games : from the gist of your most recent post, I see the following main points:

1. The guys who initially made some homebrew games and subsequently published them get a free pass if their initial releases were mediocre or substandard, but beginning hobbyists now wanting to enter into the ring don't get such a pass and are expected to release the next SMB or Battle Kid as their initial release?

2. People were cash grabbing homebrew games, yet at the same time you also just mentioned that there is little profit to be made, even more likely that money would be lost. So which is it? It can't be both, can it?

3. Crap "cash grabs" coming out at the same time as "good" releases, and taking away from money / sales.

4. It takes lots of effort to produce and release a game from start to finish.

Here's my problem with it all. Didn't the folks in point 1 produce and release some mediocre games? Didn't we establish in point 2 that there is little money to be made even in this business? Even if point 3 is true (which is even subjective), we still need to keep in mind point 4, which is that it even takes effort to crank out a turd, and a lot of bottom feeders aren't going to be doing that.

I also notice there was no comments about a from scratch guy reusing his or her engine for a new release. Likewise, it seems to me, all of the above had occurred with "by scratch" releases, in a day way before nes maker ever came out. So perhaps we should be gatekeeping our by scratch guys a bit more, instead of worrying about an influx of crap games from nes maker

[FrankenGraphics | 104]

9 hours ago, fcgamer said:

 

1. The guys who initially made some homebrew games and subsequently published them get a free pass if their initial releases were mediocre or substandard, but beginning hobbyists now wanting to enter into the ring don't get such a pass and are expected to release the next SMB or Battle Kid as their initial release?

2. People were cash grabbing homebrew games, yet at the same time you also just mentioned that there is little profit to be made, even more likely that money would be lost. So which is it? It can't be both, can it?

3. Crap "cash grabs" coming out at the same time as "good" releases, and taking away from money / sales.

4. It takes lots of effort to produce and release a game from start to finish.

Here's my problem with it all. Didn't the folks in point 1 produce and release some mediocre games? Didn't we establish in point 2 that there is little money to be made even in this business? Even if point 3 is true (which is even subjective), we still need to keep in mind point 4, which is that it even takes effort to crank out a turd, and a lot of bottom feeders aren't going to be doing that.

I also notice there was no comments about a from scratch guy reusing his or her engine for a new release. Likewise, it seems to me, all of the above had occurred with "by scratch" releases, in a day way before nes maker ever came out. So perhaps we should be gatekeeping our by scratch guys a bit more, instead of worrying about an influx of crap games from nes maker

I'd like to address some of these points. 

1. Early homebrews blazed the trail. Just making an NES game demo however short or regardless design qualities  pre-2007 was a feat. There was still little precedence in the first half of the 2010:s to use as a point of reference. Much thanks to the NESdev compo which has promoted devs to strive for making better and better games, and with the ongoing trend that some of the upper crop in the results of those compos then go on to be further developed into full-featured games that can compare to historical game releases, we're also seeing duos and trios where each member has at least one specialization team up to make it happen. 
With bigger and better games coming out, of course the gaming audiences' expectations of NES homebrew increases. We need to do better each time. Which is good, but demanding. that's just how it is. 

2. The deciding factor that make both scenarios true is spent time. If you make a game worthwile someones' time and money, you're likely spending time and effort that would equal *at least* months of office time. Likely more. Some of that can be covered for spending weekends or late nights after children go to sleep and whatnot, but you're also likely to spend time on your game you'd, economically speaking, be better of salary working, contracting or freelancing. That difference in revenue for your worked time is a cost post in your budget. A game with lots of non-repeated content is therefore likely to be a costly affair for the homebrewer. 

The very definition of a cash grab, however, is to get somebody to pay you without you putting in hours of effort, usually resulting in a subpar product. Id' like to classify it a (premeditated, i'd probably add, not sure) exploitation of cashing in on expectations that the resulting product cannot meet. Or there could be overconfidence in the merits of your work, meaning you launch commercially way too early, leading to the same effect.

On a tangent: In freelancing, we have a triangle of service qualities. there are 3 corners to it: high delivery quality, short turnaround time, and low cost. As a client, you typically get to choose 2. A similar theory could be applied to homebrew: High quality product, short development cycle, low cost of production. Again, you only get to choose 2, at most. There's the possibility of a disconnect between use value and market/perceived value, though. 

4. This point is as true as always. However, it has gotten easier to release something that maybe should just be a demo rom for peer review over at nesdev or something. Everyone has to make that judgement call for themselves, but at least from a homebrew consumers' point of view it is not "special" anymore (however the experience may be special to you as a developer) to have something working and running on the NES in of itself. The significance of that is lost because we've made progress, together, beyond that point, which i think can only be be a good thing. 


tl;dr of it all: good games take time to make. cash grabs do not.







 

Edited November 17, 2019 by FrankenGraphics
typos

[FrankenGraphics | 104]

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I also notice there was no comments about a from scratch guy reusing his or her engine for a new release

This is just common business sense, i think. If you got a good engine, why not make a sequel or derivative to get more out of your efforts? Why not at least reuse the undercarriage (non- or low-formative maintenance routines at the very least) for a new engine?

Nobody's complaining that castlevania 3 is using an improved castlevania 1 engine, because it got heaps upon heaps of good game and level design added to it. Everybody loved battle kid 2 for the same reasons. A lot of people probably wish for a BK3. 

I probably wouldn't want to use the same engine for a bunch of very disparate game designs, though. That's where you start to dillute the quality. 

Edited November 17, 2019 by FrankenGraphics