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The NESMaker Distinction


SoleGoose

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10 minutes ago, Mugi said:

ah so you are indeed just butthurt that the tool was not available for you to use when you made something, so now you want to shit on everyone using it to self-gratify your own creations then. Thanks for the clarification.

I'm not sure if you're talking to me or Beau or who, but no, that's not the case for anyone here.

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i've repeatedly been saying here that it should not just be labeled as this and that due to the fact that it has actually been programmed mostly from the ground up.

(as i said, it's built over the tech demo i submitted to byte off, which was made on nesmaker) hence after, scrolling, screen loading, physics, sprite draw routines, graphics loading routines

input routines and practically everything else aside the object handling system has been collectively removed and/or rewritten.

the reason the game never displays enemies is because nesmaker's object routine is still used in the engine, and as it's not compatible with our own routines, it is not working at the moment.

 

i find it especially insulting from him that he keeps insisting this, while dodging the repeated request of categorizing his own work based on tools, nor providing any insight on his opinions aside the stone hard insistment of forcing everyone else to categorize their work in certain ways, and now he even compares our project to a making of a romhack, which honestly feels really insulting to me.

 

i started from absolute scratch with assembly when i made my nesmaker demo, and now that i've finally after almost a year of non-stop working gotten a fairly functional game engine running with my friend, he still insists that it has to be labeled as something that was somehow less work and tool assisted.?

 

are all my future homebrews "nesmaker productiosn too" if i happen to reuse code from my current project in them too ?

how do i become a "real" homebrewer then ? or is it that i can't become one now that i've learned how to write assembly code from looking at the sourcecode of nesmaker's engine?

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8 minutes ago, Mugi said:

 

still doesnt change the fact he's double standarded in his whole crusade over labeling people using nesmaker as a tool as opposed to using anything else as a tool.

 

But I think it probably matters in the context of you initially seeming to apply your disagreement with SoleGoose to the entire "community" as if there is some shared hivemind opinion on the issue.

Painting with a broad brush when it comes to "the community" (whether we're talking homebrewers, the collectors of the site, or whatever) probably isn't the most productive attitude to have, when there is really a pretty broad array of individual opinions to be had.

Edited by arch_8ngel
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there is not ?

i was under the assumption that all programmer kinds serve the same masterbrain in a glass-jar....

ah, another childhood illusion broken 😞

 

jokes aside, it's just extremely disheartening to get treated like that, if even just one member of the community.

 

 

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Homebrew Team · Posted

I think there has been good points made, no matter where you land. 

I am not a developer, just a fan of Homebrews.  So take this for what it is worth.

My suggestion of how to proceed:

1. Discussiton is open for a set period of time.

2. Some sort of grouping of options is reached about what are the main routes to take.

3. A poll is opened for a set period of time for those options.

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1 hour ago, SoleGoose said:

 

Why would you not? We clarify things all of the time on the forums in order to know what we're talking about. Is that game sealed, or a reseal? Did you use save states, or did you beat it legit? Is Super Mario Bros. a "super Nintendo" game, or a "Super" Nintendo game. Some don't care, others do. Is that game a hack, or was it programmed from scratch? NESMaker questions are similar.

 

And you still can’t effectively rebut.  If you’re not willing to clarify with an asterisk the tools of others that you’ve used, you really need to let this go.  You are the one that has made an issue of the NESMaker tag as an elitist qualitative marker; please don’t try to disingenuously pretend otherwise.

Edited by WaverBoy
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for the sake of continuing the topic's conversation though, here's a picture of Dimension Shift's source code in it's working enviroment (nesmaker's built-in script editor)

on the left are "tabs" of included .asm files, and on the right is a list of defined macros (the bottom part of the screen displays the content of the macro when selected.)

 

why does writing a game in this enviroment classifies it differently than if you use notepad to write an .asm file ?

Image2.thumb.png.35755310b28dbba0d2a76e5dc3c76679.png

 

pictured code is indeed written from scratch by yours truly, instead of somehow magically generated by nesmaker.

you're looking at the weapon metasprite draw array of the weapons in the game.

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44 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Try to keep in mind that SoleGoose isn't the only person here. Frankly it seems rather immature to just bail on the conversation because one guy wants to see a distinction made. We're here to have a conversation and you can totally disagree with each other, but you're being pretty childish about the whole thing, it's really not shining a great light on your side of it.

Your game looks great, it's an example IMO of the greatness that can come from using a tool like NESMaker, and why I tend to defend it as just that - just a tool along the way. But I could do without the name calling and attitude.

That’s right, it’s one guy, and it’s time for that one guy to just let his elitist attitude go, especially as he can’t effectively rebut the argument against.

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When I first learned to program for the NES in 2014, I searched for a tool much like NESMaker. If that would have been available then, I totally would have bought it! However, it wasn't and I discovered NA and the Nerdy Nights instead. At that time, I really didn't want to learn to program to make something on the NES. Looking back, I'm very happy NESMaker wasn't available so I had the experience I did. However, I am glad that the tool is now available for others to get into the homebrew scene.

Some will dabble in it and really make nothing out of it and that's great. These people will gain some understanding of how difficult it is to make a game. Others, like Mugi, are going to use it as a springboard to delve deep into assembly and learn how the NES works and that is great, too! I really see NESMaker just becoming another tool for them to use on portions of the of the program where the tool is useful. The cool thing is, these developers learned the language as well and sort of outgrew NESMaker!

I know some fear that NESMaker will flood the market with crapware, burn buyers, and kill the NES homebrew scene. Personally, I see some of these projects moving us further and further away from the era where some people were just pushing out crapware to cash in on the homebrew craze! There were a few games I regret buying being caught up in that mess... At that time, thankfully there was no NESMaker for DOZENS of people to pump out many games! Fortunately, I think the community has learned from that experience and now expects homebrews to be a certain quality and caliber, regardless how they were made. I'm 100% for better games and more people making them. It's a hobby and more than likely one day in my lifetime, it's going to come to an end anyhow. Will people still be making games for the NES in 50 years? It would be pretty cool, but I just don't see it happening. But, I am thankful for being apart of this and all that I have been able to experience!

So, to add to the actual topic of the thread, I really don't care either way. I try to support effort where I can. Would I buy a game 100% made with NESMaker? I can't say no I wouldn't because I really don't know what will be released. Will I buy all games made from "scratch"? Most definitely no! Would I buy a game that was a combination of both? Of course! In the end, each person will do their own thing and that's ok, too!

Edited by Orab Games
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Administrator · Posted
12 minutes ago, Mugi said:

for the sake of continuing the topic's conversation though, here's a picture of Dimension Shift's source code in it's working enviroment (nesmaker's built-in script editor)

on the left are "tabs" of included .asm files, and on the right is a list of defined macros (the bottom part of the screen displays the content of the macro when selected.)

 

why does writing a game in this enviroment classifies it differently than if you use notepad to write an .asm file ?

Image2.thumb.png.35755310b28dbba0d2a76e5dc3c76679.png

 

pictured code is indeed written from scratch by yours truly, instead of somehow magically generated by nesmaker.

you're looking at the weapon metasprite draw array of the weapons in the game.

There are web developers that would scoff at me not using VIM as my code editor. 

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1 minute ago, Gloves said:

There are web developers that would scoff at me not using VIM as my code editor. 

the difference here is that apparently somehow solegoose thinks that nesmaker writes my code instead of me.

im fine if im being scoffed at because X or Y has better functionality for writing text, but yeah.

 

it is true that you can load a module into this editor, that comes packed with things, some of which you still see on the list in my picture.

in the case of this particular project, the defaults i havent cleaned out yet, are either empty, or not included in mainasm.asm anymore. I tend to clean the list as i go,

since last time i did a major cleanup of reordering and relabeling everything, half of the game stopped working and i had to roll to a backup from a week ago, so i decided to just

clean it up when we're done with it 😛

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Administrator · Posted
5 minutes ago, Mugi said:

the difference here is that apparently somehow solegoose thinks that nesmaker writes my code instead of me.

im fine if im being scoffed at because X or Y has better functionality for writing text, but yeah.

 

it is true that you can load a module into this editor, that comes packed with things, some of which you still see on the list in my picture.

in the case of this particular project, the defaults i havent cleaned out yet, are either empty, or not included in mainasm.asm anymore. I tend to clean the list as i go,

since last time i did a major cleanup of reordering and relabeling everything, half of the game stopped working and i had to roll to a backup from a week ago, so i decided to just

clean it up when we're done with it 😛

If I type an exclamation mark into my IDE and hit TAB, it auto-generates a basic HTML page. 

The sky is falling! 

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11 minutes ago, Gloves said:

There are web developers that would scoff at me not using VIM as my code editor. 

I've tried to go back and try using full-blown IDE's and things like Visual Studio Code but just can't. I get angry when I have to take hands off the keyboard to use a mouse, and I'd rather not compromise by spending half my day tabbing to the desired menu options. Modal editors, specifically VIM, for life.

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Administrator · Posted
Just now, barrels said:

I've tried to go back and try using full-blown IDE's and things like Visual Studio Code but just can't. I get angry when I have to take hands off the keyboard to use a mouse, and I'd rather not compromise by spending half my day tabbing to the desired menu options. Modal editors, specifically VIM, for life.

This fuckin guy right here! Get him! 

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Administrator · Posted
2 minutes ago, G-type said:

I own NESmaker, and I would be proud to tell anyone I used it in creating a game. It's a good way to show people what's possible. If the label is just being used to scoff at games as "less worthy" well that kinda blows. I would hope people wouldn't do that.

Yeah that'd be a bit of a dick move. 

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I like it for documentation at the very least. It's not a secret that Cuphead is a Unity game or Undertale is a GameMaker game, obviously the engine to those is just the platform on which the entire game is built and they didn't just use drag and drop tools to create them. If people are going to leave VGS over it, then don't tag it, but it would be nice to have documented somewhere in any case if only to look back in future years and compare games built on NESMaker to games built on some other future engine, etc. I'm just a player and data junkie though, not a fancy game dev.

Edited by DefaultGen
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