ExplodedHamster

Yessir, I agree with all of this! I feel caught in the middle myself, but 99.9% of the attention is currently on one side. The great thing is VGS and the internet, at large, houses many different forums with different topics, so there really ought to be room for both. I think too much energy is being spent focusing on one. Games, of course, were originally meant for something else entirely, but that's basically the same as any collectible that's at least 10 or so years old (sports cards companies were losing popularity, so they started gearing things towards more of an investment setup). The best collectibles, imo, are the ones that are naturally rare because so many people used them the way they were originally intended to be used. It certainly makes the hunt more enjoyable. It's also fun to be able to tie one side into the other. When I started collecting, I knew that Genesis was my favorite system, but I had no idea I was only aware of like 15% of the entire library. The best part of collecting for me has been playing through these games I never knew existed and realizing how awesome they are. That, in turn, gives me motivation to collect those items. It's a vicious, if totally enjoyable, cycle.

It’s possible the numbers will double or more, but it doesn’t account for crosses between the companies and resubs. A better question is which company currently has more 20+ year old games in their cases. I would put money on WATA.

We won’t know until a celebrity or athlete posts one on IG, which is inevitable with Goldin now a major player. A little heavy for Logan Paul’s neck, but maybe he can do it to flex his delts, bro.

Regarding the backlog, I don’t think grading itself is the issue anymore. It’s supplies and encasing/shipping. So the question is whether these numbers include all the games in “post grading” status.

I was shocked how few of these there are. Awesome piece, that is a super fun game.

Goldin is auctioning VHS right now, so we’ll see how that goes. I suspect it will do fine or better, but I know very little about it. In addition to IGS, I have seen a bunch in I think it’s VHSDNA? VHS I don’t have much nostalgia for. Maybe like 3-5 movies? Other than that, I associate movies with theaters. If someone starts grading those, watch out.

Uh no. I bought it from someone I have known for a long time. Then you claim I bought some other VGA Zelda, dude I have no clue what you are talking about. I would like some advice on how to best improve my Zelda positions. Do you charge for advice?

No lol. You keep talking about this, I never even tried to buy that game lol. I know who has it, he’s one of my good friends in the hobby. I don’t pull that shit, and people who have actually done business with me and know me can attest to that. I have no idea where you even came up with this.

If that was the standard, nobody would be banned. Hopper is awesome btw. Dude is a flat out machine and a super nice guy.

That's actually a good question. You know, speaking of investing, I listen to a great podcast on the subject entitled, appropriately "Game Investing." The show is dedicated primarily to buying and selling video games as an investment in one's financial portfolio. During the course the podcast, the excellent host, Hopper, identifies key issues he feels are important to treating video games as a tangible asset class and alternative investment. What's great about the show is Hopper doesn't always do it alone. In fact, sometimes he has special guests! These special guests typical proactively reach out to him and ask to engage in conversations about video games as an investment. Your comment jogged my memory because I thought perhaps I had heard of @Gulag Joe matching the exact description you have given him and others. So I went back, and I actually found a podcast from about a year ago, Episode dated October 20th 2020. Man, this is this a great one. The episode is entitled "Special Guest Frank Picks N64 Keys," and the podcast's description reads as follows: "New father and lawyer, Frank, drops N64 education and dives into Nintendo's 3d platform, incl. 007, Mario, Super Smash, and five other hidden investment gems..." During the episode, special guest Frank spends nearly an hour discussing his "holdings" and "positions" in sealed retro games for his "portfolio." At one point, he mentions that previously he had "five sealed copies of Zelda: Ocarina of Time," because he feels it is undervalued and a great long-term investment. He is excited to talk about "game investing specifics" for the N64. He then spends another half an hour discussing the best investments on the N64 library. Anyway, there's plenty more and you can see the generally idea of where the conversation went and what was discussed, but what's cool is sometimes people we hear on Podcasts turn out to be people we know on various social media spaces of forums! What struck me about this one is this Frank character mentioned he was a member of our very own VGS! So I went back and looked, and gosh, it turns out you're right. "Shout out to people over at VGS," he says, my name is "Gula..." ***Checks notes***..."WalterWhiteJr." Huh... ‎Game Investing: Special Guest Frank Picks N64 Keys on Apple Podcasts

For the general gaming community, they’ll probably never recover. But the very large majority of that community never would have used them to begin with, and I doubt the overall effect on their business will be negative, in fact it’s probably increased since September. What is a real threat is the operational issues combined with increased competition, namely CGC. But if WATA becomes PSA and games in their cases sell for more than games in other cases, people will suck it up and submit.

I don’t agree it’s a conflict. He is allowed to form his own opinions and others are free to listen to what he and others say and form their own. You could just as easily say Karl has a conflict because this subject gets him more views, and I wouldn’t agree with that either. Or you could say X person wants video game prices to go down, he or she has a conflict. In the end, all that matters are the substance of the arguments.

This is an issue here. Many are saying that people like Jonas are "conflicted out," yet there are really few better people positioned to give information on what's out there. People who have collected and amassed these items are the ones who would be in the best position to know how difficult things are or are not to obtain. There's really no other way to get around that than the population reports, but people in these positions, such as Jonas, Minus, myself, Bronty etc., have been pretty consistent that we welcome pop reports. I think the NES population report that dropped pretty much speaks for itself. Yeah, there's more out there, and there's VGA and what's left ungraded to consider, but the numbers after 3 years and an insane amount of publicity are what they are. There's an assumption that people who own games are saying these are rare because they own them, as opposed to they started collecting them because they were rare. But, I'll say it again. Personally, I am very happy we have at least one major piece of data, and I'd absolutely love to see everything released and will be glad when it is.

The market is volatile as hell at the high end, of course I agree with that lol. I don’t really think it’s any different than what happens in other collectibles markets, though I have always maintained that I believe populations are relatively low enough that it’s highly unlikely it’s all one giant bubble that collapses. There will be certain items that shoot up and down right now, but that’s not really abnormal in free markets that are growing rapidly. I’m glad we are starting to see pop reports, though I also understand the purpose in waiting some time to give a better picture. As to graded games, I absolutely believe people should have them just to collect and preserve, if that’s what they want. Of course I do. I have a number of games I keep for myself because I have large nostalgia or love of them and want to preserve them in their original form because it reminds me of when I went to buy them. I also understand it’s not for everybody, and I don’t begrudge anyone who hates the idea of it. To each their own.

Of course you have a right to be here! I just don't understand why, on the one hand, you would say that people are forcing this conversation on you, yet, on the other, that you spend so much time seeking it. If you don't want to have the conversation, then why are you having it? Again, don't take that as me saying gfto, I'm not. I just don't really understand lol. As for the success thing, that's not really what I meant. It was more a backdrop of being sick of having people intimate I'm scamming anyone. I feel it's disrespectful to both me and the people who are choosing of their own free will to spend their own money on what they choose.

It's flawed because you say it's flawed. In an alternate timeline, it could just have easily evolved differently with, say, perfectly mint Mario 3 first print CIBs being more sought after than loose Stadium Events, and the numbers would justify it. There are so many different ways to categorize and view the insane amount of data that it's not surprising a new group of people could come in and re-define for themselves what is important and what isn't. In fact, many sealed and non-sealed collectors have valued the sorts of things people are discussing now for decades, just in smaller circles. It's also different with sealed, because there are nuances where something like a Sonic can be super common CIB, but hard to find sealed, and so on. Either way, I don't really understand why you cannot continue discussions with people you always have about what is rare and important to you and others can do so with what is important to them. I feel people create conflict here where none really needs to exist.

I haven't really said a single thing about people who don't collect or invest in sealed games other than I think there's always been room for everyone to collect, and that I never really agreed with the constant argument that came up in every NA thread ever by the time of its end that one was ruining it for the other. For context, keep in mind I was a member of NA for about a decade and didn't really partake in higher end until the end, so I'm being consistent here. To me, it's far more the opposite: People not participating in higher end stuff seem to spend a lot of their time talking about those who do. That's the thing I have never really understood, it's just a focus on something you dislike over something you like. I've never gone into any other forum here or elsewhere and told people what to collect or how to collect it, so I don't really understand how I'm telling anyone else who game collectors are or what they should be etc. I love video games, in fact, and I spend a pretty decent amount of time watching streamers and conversing about the games themselves. I'm also the current leader on the Genesis completed games list in the Site Run Forum ;). As to the business, yes, I have been a collector for over a decade because it's my biggest passion. Yes, I thought I saw an opportunity to put the money we saved (neither my wife nor I came from money, so it was definitely not without risk) into a market I thought had tremendous upside and I would enjoy, and things went so crazy I just kept putting more money in from the profits and it snowballed. I wanted to try to make some money for the kids' education and fund the collection kinda thing and to have fun doing it. I also have an entrepreneurial side I never really explored because I was stuck in the rigid 9-5 play it safe life, but I love to get wrapped up in something (particularly competitive) and to hustle. What upsets me is all the stuff about it being a scam. I have no control over how people spend their money, and I take 100% umbrage to someone saying I am doing this and that (like I guess paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees to buy my own games?) when what I'm doing is buying stuff and sending it off for the market to decide. I also have defended some (though certainly not all) of the prices these games have gotten to because I 100% believed and have done my homework that these items are as hard to come by as they will show themselves to be over the next year as population reports continue to emerge. Additionally, it's important to include context of where collectibles in general have shot through the roof the past few years. Prices everywhere are insane, I mean someone just paid 2.5 million for something akin to a house in Minecraft! When you have something rare enough, it only takes 2 people for it to get out of hand quickly. If it's only 2, of course, it's quite possible that the next one could utterly collapse...or it could increase! You just never really know at that level. And more younger people are making big money off investments than ever, so there's more money to go around. I mean, honestly, you seem full of spite in all this. I've never tried to take the entire video game community any which way because I've never believed it was ever a one size fits all kind of thing. If you don't wanna hear about it, why do you spend so much time in this forum discussing it? Nobody is forcing you do be here. Edit - Maybe the spite is your "sharp tongue"

So I think the first part here is probably fairly simple. Starting up a grading company is sophisticated and takes millions of dollars. In today's market, I don't really think there's an alternative approach to partnering with a major auction house that is viable. Prior to HA/WATA, the market was not large enough to support such a business venture. Ebay was insufficient, so WATA needed to take a gamble that games would take off at one of the higher end auction houses. VGA was able to have some success because they are just a branch of a pre-existing company. It was financially viable to enter as they did. Yes, there are smaller start ups attempting to start up now with much less funds, but the market was nowhere near as large in 2018 as it is now, and frankly I suspect all the smaller companies will die out. CGC is another story, but again they are similar to VGA anyway, in that this will just be an offshoot. Yup, I got that sense, and appreciate your confirming it. The NA thing wasn't really a comment on anything you said, more a bit of a tangent of mine. I will agree back Jonas that NA was far from a database, but I don't think that's really the focus so it's not terribly important to your overall argument.

@karljobstExhibit A as to what was taken from your first video and why the population report is and will continue to be important. It puts a significant hole in these kinds of theories, not that anyone will really care I suppose lol. There is a difference between “it’s all a scam” (again going back to your icon, which says SCAM in big red letters next to a verifiably real sale) and “people in X positions are inappropriately profiting.” It’s nuanced, but significant. As I mentioned, I don’t necessarily agree with all your arguments on the latter, but I definitely understand the conversation more. I think you do as well, as your comments here and elsewhere indicate. You can also, of course, see the element of populism and class warfare. It’s always made me uncomfortable on these forums, well before I ever bought a sealed game or owned a higher end item. It drove a lot people away from the old NA tbh. Reminds me of raucous political rallies, which are not really my thing.

Fair or not, I think we are evolving into a place where WATA is PSA and VGA is Beckett. When you get to 95+ or 100, similar to the BGS 10, it could break records. When you're below a 95+, WATA 9.8/A++ will be king. CGC is going to fit in there somehow as well, and is a very well respected company, so it's all very interesting.

Isn't partnering with an auction company the exact way in which a new grading company would prove the concept and product? I think it's exactly how I'd wager most business owners would want to start, at least. I also think a problem you are also overlooking with VGA, beyond the fact they would not financially guarantee their accuracy or tamper proof cases, is the scale is just not something that is standard across collectibles, and it's not very, for lack of a better term, "exciting." Having near perfect games get an 85+ doesn't do it for a lot of people. And it's not really a changeable thing, given there was already a decade of games being encased.

The entire manipulation angle that has been heavily suggested, if not outright claimed, by many online personalities relies on the premise that people working at WATA and auction houses secretly know how many of these items are in existence and are pushing prices by taking advantage of a naive public. Millions of these games were made, ergo there must be thousands out there and it's all a giant speculative bubble that is due to pop at any point. WATA and the auction companies know this and therefore are trying to rake in as much money as possible before the data becomes available and "the bubble bursts." Pat and Reserved Investments have been beating that drum incessantly, with Pat saying stuff like there must be hundreds, if not thousands of sealed first print Mario 3s because he had one on his shelf and it's not all that rare CIB (note: there are 17 graded by WATA to date). Reserved Investments says stuff like "there are casepacks upon casepacks out there," saying he opened them, yet without ever actually revealing what games they were or how many there were, etc. RI did a reaction video to the pop report yesterday and, quite frankly, it was embarrassing. Faced with objectively low population numbers, he doubled down and said with a straight face these were higher than he expected! The reason, of course, is because he knows a lot of what he says falls apart if he makes an admission populations are short, so things must be spun no matter what to keep that narrative going. Now, is it fair to reference Pat and RI when I'm addressing you? I'd argue yes, as your first video included both parties and an implicit espousal of their positions on this subject. Plus, there's a bit more below. Long time sealed collectors have been saying for a very long time how rare these items are, particularly relative to other collectibles and in high grade. Yet very little time has been spent actually seriously considering the evidence of exactly what's out there and why certain people might be spending the money they are on them. Instead, the viewer is either strongly led or outright told it's all a scam and manipulation, with strong populist undertones inserted to, so to speak, rally the troops. As MinusWorld mentioned before, we have wanted the pop reports out there; if anything it shows how special these items truly are and how crazy it is so many of them are naturally hard to come by. In your case, it is mostly the former, with the exception of the icon you used in your first video, which imo is bordering on defamation, but not like anyone will care enough to do anything about it and quantifying damages would be a pain in the ass. That SMB 2 million dollar sale was 100% real and conducted by a regulated company, and today it actually doesn't look like a bad buy at all, given there's a real argument it will be the single highest valued game moving forward. Now, I know you said you didn't want people to focus on what you said is your belief these things are happening and the manipulation aspect, but it was basically impossible not to, and it seems to be the main thing many, if not most, people took from the video. That icon itself quite posisbly played a big role in that, especially in today's world where people are heavily influenced by the first thing they see. I will say the at least appearance of what I guess I would term as "insider trading" is mor than fair game. I think Mark Haspel was basically hands off except for being used as a bridge to collectors in other categories, and certainly he was never hiding anything, but when you list someone with a WATA email address on the website, they should be held to a different standard. The Advisory Board stuff, I totally disagree with you, it's 100% standard business to partner with people on the board and for board members to participate in markets. I personally don't understand why Mark Haspel wasn't listed solely as an advisor, but that's not something I can really answer, and I know he released a statement a while back, so I'll let him speak for himself. But, without question, I understand the focus on issues like this. I personally do think this second video is more focused, but the issue is the toothpaste really can't be put back in the bottle for the first one. I personally think you could have done a better job of outreach to the companies and individuals you reference for both videos. I think you could have done better outreach to the sealed/graded gaming community for background on the first, but I will give you credit that you did do so afterwards and I think it personally made for a more focused video. Based on the interviews I saw you give, I think perhaps you realized viewers were honing in on something you perhaps didn't want them to, and I definitely think there was an improvement with this focus in the second. Anyway, that was a pretty long-winded answer and I'm sure I both repeated myself and left stuff out, but that's what happens in heavily involved topics! Thanks for stopping by to address some stuff.

Could already see the effects of the pop report in the weekly auction. A random pop 3 basketball game went for probably 3-4X what it would have before. Joker went down, albeit far less dramatically and possibly within the normal standard deviation.

Not much new,, mostly a re-hash, other than some of the Haspel stuff previously discussed here. The Haspel stuff has always been the worst look for WATA imo. Karl coulda pushed it back a few days and edited the pop report part, but my guess is it’s not really something he wants to highlight because it undercuts some of his prior comments. As to the actual auction, you could already see the effects of the pop report. Batman took a bit if a hit, while the pop 3 basketball game prob went 3-4X what it would have two days ago.

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