Open Debate: Are "cheat devices" really cheating?

[T-Pac | 7,537]

What are some general opinions of using turbo controllers like the NES Advantage or the Beeshu zipper? Or a modern equivalent? Is a playthrough legit if you use auto-fire?

-CasualCart

[Alder | 243]

58 minutes ago, CasualCart said:

What are some general opinions of using turbo controllers like the NES Advantage or the Beeshu zipper? Or a modern equivalent? Is a playthrough legit if you use auto-fire?

-CasualCart

If someone told me they beat every NES game, but they used a turbo controller, I wouldn't say that their claim is false or their achievement invalid. That would still be a serious accomplishment, and using turbo is arguably a healthy alternative for certain games to prevent strain. Now, if instead of a turbo controller you said you used save states, well.. they're far more exploitable, and even the hardest games become trivial using them. The same is true for a cheat device. For the purposes of the "beat every game" and contest threads, I believe turbo controllers have been considered cheating. Personally, I don't use them because I prefer the original controller above everything else.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Alder

[T-Pac | 7,537]

@Gloves Yeah, Abadox is awesome. I hear people say it's just a ripoff of Life Force/ Salamander, but I enjoy it so much more for some reason (blasphemous, I know).

-CasualCart

[Alder | 243]

5 hours ago, Br81zad said:

Here's an even bigger question. Is "Big Head" mode considered a "cheat"? 

It doesn't provide any tangible advantage.

Also, what was the first game to include a "Big Head" mode?

(seriously asking, I don't have a clue)

Not sure on the history of it, but the earliest I know of is Tony Hawk's Pro Skater.

Here's an interesting anecdote on another "harmless" cheat: Hyperspeed in Guitar Hero. In the Guitar Hero III community, the vast majority of players used a feature called Hyperspeed that makes the track go by faster. This means that the notes are on screen for a shorter amount of time, requiring a quicker reaction time, but it also meant they appeared more spaced out, making crowded sections easier to parse. This was listed in the game under the Cheats menu, but it doesn't make the notes any easier to hit (as in, the timing window is still the same), and some top players preferred not to use it. Despite the entire community saying it's a valid modifier, when Guinness verified scores for the game, they required it to be turned off because it was listed in the Cheats menu. Later games in the series pulled it out of the cheats and made it a normal option, at which point it was considered okay to use.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Alder

[Tulpa | 3,492]

19 minutes ago, CasualCart said:

What are some general opinions of using turbo controllers like the NES Advantage or the Beeshu zipper? Or a modern equivalent? Is a playthrough legit if you use auto-fire?

-CasualCart

They were available back in the day and plenty of kids had one. Unless you are doing a contest that forbids them, I don't see any harm.

Some games don't work right with a turbo, though.

[m308gunner | 352]

Absolutely not.

  Cheating implies that you are dishonestly competing against an opponent without their knowledge. When you are using a device to circumvent the normal flow of a program or enhance your capabilities you are just swapping a 1 here or a 0 there. There is no subterfuge. The computer executes the program per the user's input. It has no stake in the game.

[JamesRobot | 5,800]

Anything other than playing the game straight is cheating.

It's in the name: "cheat codes"

 

[Darth Vader | 154]

54 minutes ago, Alder said:

Not sure on the history of it, but the earliest I know of is Tony Hawk's Pro Skater.

Here's an interesting anecdote on another "harmless" cheat: Hyperspeed in Guitar Hero. In the Guitar Hero III community, the vast majority of players used a feature called Hyperspeed that makes the track go by faster. This means that the notes are on screen for a shorter amount of time, requiring a quicker reaction time, but it also meant they appeared more spaced out, making crowded sections easier to parse. This was listed in the game under the Cheats menu, but it doesn't make the notes any easier to hit (as in, the timing window is still the same), and some top players preferred not to use it. Despite the entire community saying it's a valid modifier, when Guinness verified scores for the game, they required it to be turned off because it was listed in the Cheats menu. Later games in the series pulled it out of the cheats and made it a normal option, at which point it was considered okay to use.

I would use hyperspeed for a different reason. If I was having trouble 5 starring a song on expert, I'd play through it on hyperspeed for a while. Then when I would play it on expert, the notes would seem like they were coming at me slower and easier to hit.

[RH | 4,903]

3 hours ago, Alder said:

Not sure on the history of it, but the earliest I know of is Tony Hawk's Pro Skater.

Here's an interesting anecdote on another "harmless" cheat: Hyperspeed in Guitar Hero. In the Guitar Hero III community, the vast majority of players used a feature called Hyperspeed that makes the track go by faster. This means that the notes are on screen for a shorter amount of time, requiring a quicker reaction time, but it also meant they appeared more spaced out, making crowded sections easier to parse. This was listed in the game under the Cheats menu, but it doesn't make the notes any easier to hit (as in, the timing window is still the same), and some top players preferred not to use it. Despite the entire community saying it's a valid modifier, when Guinness verified scores for the game, they required it to be turned off because it was listed in the Cheats menu. Later games in the series pulled it out of the cheats and made it a normal option, at which point it was considered okay to use.

I’m not aware of the THPS big head mode but NBA Jam does have a “big head” mode/cheat and it was released in 1993.

[Alder | 243]

2 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

I would use hyperspeed for a different reason. If I was having trouble 5 starring a song on expert, I'd play through it on hyperspeed for a while. Then when I would play it on expert, the notes would seem like they were coming at me slower and easier to hit.

That's a pretty cool take on it, haven't heard of doing that before. I do the same thing though with Tetris on the NES, I like to practice on speed 19 and then start a game on speed 18. It feels so slow. Speaking of guitar hero though, Clone Hero is popular right now and in that game you can change the actual speed of the song. I imagine you could practice a song at ~125% then drop it back to normal speed and it'd feel easier.

[Br81zad | 629]

9 hours ago, RH said:

Not sure, but I think it might have been NBA Jam. Not an FPS (which is what I assume is what you are talking about) but NBA Jam had a "Big Head" sprite mode.

I read something that said NBA Jam: Tournament Edition was in fact the first game with the novelty big head mode. It became a common feature in the PS1/N64 era

[guillavoie | 1,208]

Interesting poll so far, we have 29

 persons who think that cheat devices are used for cheating, and we have 4 persons that are...

Spoiler

cheaters!

 

[Alder | 243]

3 hours ago, m308gunner said:

Absolutely not.

  Cheating implies that you are dishonestly competing against an opponent without their knowledge. When you are using a device to circumvent the normal flow of a program or enhance your capabilities you are just swapping a 1 here or a 0 there. There is no subterfuge. The computer executes the program per the user's input. It has no stake in the game.

Would you say it's only cheating then if you have an opponent? If I'm playing a game by myself then it's impossible to cheat? To me, cheating just implies an unfair advantage, regardless of whether or not you have some opponent. But what advantages are unfair? I'd say swapping bytes in memory using some external device definitely counts. The question is harder to answer when it's just the game executing as it was programmed. Is taking advantage of an exploit cheating? What about glitches? I'm comfortable saying it depends case by case.

[ookii_risu | 206]

8 hours ago, MeganJoanne said:

 

Now thinking about this whole cheat device and cheat codes thing, there is one game of all games that I actually used a continue code in order to finish it and that is Milon's Secret Castle, and still have always been unsure of that one because the game manual gives the code which allows you to continue after losing anytime after the ground floor is cleared. I had always wondered why they didn't simply put the continue option in plain sight, but then the game itself has a lot of hidden secrets, thus the method of continuing being no different. I never considered it cheating many years ago because it was given in the manual, yet as the years progressed I got to thinking, what if I just got really good at this game and was able to beat it without that simple little button combo, but that would mean doing it without dying because you only get one life. But I've always made note of that one, used continue code, 6 deaths/continues total (or something). It's that one game of all that I'm like damn, do they really expect you to no death this!? Yes, I know it is possible given one plays a game enough, you can get damn good at it, but I've only ever played it through twice. But no deathing it is what one would have had to do if they somehow didn't have the manual back in the day nor any hint that there even was that secret continue option, unless found accidentally (it's not like enter the konami code for Contra or the quick button maneuvers you had to do with Ikari Warriors to continue)  which only requires holding left and pressing start (after the first crystal is obtained). So since we are on this topic I'm curious from others on the thoughts about Milon's Secret Castle's continue option... cheating or not? Or do they really intend the game to be ruthless like real life, one chance and game over? Should be a change to the ending at least whether using the continue option or mastering it without dying. I had considered removing it from my list many years ago just because of the fact that the continue option is hidden thus maybe or maybe not legit. Nowadays, whatever, it's one game, would hardly make a difference in my record if I kept or removed it. But am curious of other people's opinions on this.

I don't think that's cheating, because it's in the manual. It's like a quiz to see if you did your homework before playing the game. Ingenius... and sadistic.

[ookii_risu | 206]

This reminds me of a similar topic. If you beat a game on easy, did you *really* beat the game? Some games have extra stages in Normal or Hard modes, for example. I don't play games on Easy mode, but if I beat it on Normal and I get some BS like "You need to play the next mode" I'm going to say screw this and get on with my life.

[Alder | 243]

5 minutes ago, ookii_risu said:

I don't think that's cheating, because it's in the manual. It's like a quiz to see if you did your homework before playing the game. Ingenius... and sadistic.

When TMR did his "beat every NES game" challenge I think he allowed anything that was mentioned in the manual. Unfortunately ABBA on Ikari Warriors and the bee in Adventure Island were off limits which completely changes the difficulty.

1 minute ago, ookii_risu said:

This reminds me of a similar topic. If you beat a game on easy, did you *really* beat the game? Some games have extra stages in Normal or Hard modes, for example. I don't play games on Easy mode, but if I beat it on Normal and I get some BS like "You need to play the next mode" I'm going to say screw this and get on with my life.

I like this question. If a game gives you a difficulty option, I say reaching the end of any difficulty counts as beating it.. but you have to play every stage, etc, to say you've completed it. 

The one game where this hurts my head is Ghosts 'n Goblins. Compare it to other games with similar structure:

• Super Mario Bros, beating 8-4 means you beat the game. The 2nd+ loops have different enemies but you still beat it.
• The Legend of Zelda, killing Ganon means you beat it. The 2nd+ quests have some additional challenges.
• Castlevania, killing Dracula means you beat it. Same as SMB with 2nd+ loops.

I have a hard time convincing myself that a single loop counts as beating Ghosts 'n Goblins though. In the examples above you accomplish the main goal of the game, to save the princess, etc. In Ghosts 'n Goblins you not only fail to save the princess, but you also don't get to fight against the final boss until you've looped the game again. But at the same time, I feel like if the game gave you an easy/hard option where easy ends at the end of the first loop (a bad ending) and hard gets you the true ending, I'd be more inclined to say that getting the bad ending counts as beating the game. I think way too much into this.

[peg | 370]

Using continues = turning the game into practice mode.

 

Beating the first loop of G n G without continuing is far, far more impressive then beating the second loop feeding continues.  Using continues was the precursor to pay to win.  In the arcades, using continues literally was pay to win.

Edited November 6, 2019 by peg

[ookii_risu | 206]

7 minutes ago, Alder said:

When TMR did his "beat every NES game" challenge I think he allowed anything that was mentioned in the manual. Unfortunately ABBA on Ikari Warriors and the bee in Adventure Island were off limits which completely changes the difficulty.

I like this question. If a game gives you a difficulty option, I say reaching the end of any difficulty counts as beating it.. but you have to play every stage, etc, to say you've completed it. 

The one game where this hurts my head is Ghosts 'n Goblins. Compare it to other games with similar structure:

• Super Mario Bros, beating 8-4 means you beat the game. The 2nd+ loops have different enemies but you still beat it.
• The Legend of Zelda, killing Ganon means you beat it. The 2nd+ quests have some additional challenges.
• Castlevania, killing Dracula means you beat it. Same as SMB with 2nd+ loops.

I have a hard time convincing myself that a single loop counts as beating Ghosts 'n Goblins though. In the examples above you accomplish the main goal of the game, to save the princess, etc. In Ghosts 'n Goblins you not only fail to save the princess, but you also don't get to fight against the final boss until you've looped the game again. But at the same time, I feel like if the game gave you an easy/hard option where easy ends at the end of the first loop (a bad ending) and hard gets you the true ending, I'd be more inclined to say that getting the bad ending counts as beating the game. I think way too much into this.

Interesting that the bee was off limits... hmmm, I don't know if I agree with that. It's in the game itself. Was there a code you had to press in addition to getting the bee? I forget. If that's the case, I guess I can see why he didn't use it. 

 

I do think Ghosts 'n Goblins needs to be played through both times, because there is a different weapon you have to use to beat the end. Especially in Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts, which has a final boss you can only face at the end of the second loop, no matter what difficulty you play. I don't agree with how the series forces you to play through it twice, though, so I refuse to play even the first loop. 

[peg | 370]

It always gives me a good laugh when these ignorant dummies say using autofire is cheating in shmups.  After all, it's a "cheat device", right?  Like these low-level bottom feeding scubs that can't even clear a single game on 1 credit are shitting all over the Japanese world record holders and elite players that have spent hundreds and more likely thousands of hours into these games.  But these clowns that take 50 credits to "beat" Gradius or Raiden, they totally have it all figured out.

Edited November 6, 2019 by peg

[Deadeye | 1,596]

Set it free man...

https://thehardtimes.net/harddrive/man-uses-last-cheat-code-to-set-game-genie-free/

 

[Tulpa | 3,492]

6 hours ago, ookii_risu said:

Interesting that the bee was off limits... hmmm, I don't know if I agree with that. It's in the game itself. Was there a code you had to press in addition to getting the bee? I forget. If that's the case, I guess I can see why he didn't use it. 

Yes, you also have to hold a direction on the d-pad (any direction, IIRC, though it may be a specific one like right) and press start before it will continue.

Edited November 6, 2019 by Tulpa

[cj_robot | 540]

If you're playing a game in your home for your own enjoyment, then there's no such thing as "cheating." I remember when I found the Debug Mode in Sonic 2, I started having so much fun screwing around with that, I gave up on trying to beat the game proper. But I was having fun, which is the whole point of playing games to begin with. I would never pretend that I've actually beaten the game though, even though I've seen the ending a billion times.

That said, if you're in a contest, challenge or competition with other people, obviously there are going to be rules, and breaking the rules would of course be cheating.

[MeganJoanne | 365]

7 hours ago, ookii_risu said:

I do think Ghosts 'n Goblins needs to be played through both times, because there is a different weapon you have to use to beat the end. Especially in Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts, which has a final boss you can only face at the end of the second loop, no matter what difficulty you play. I don't agree with how the series forces you to play through it twice, though, so I refuse to play even the first loop. 

Ghosts & Goblins, I remember that one so well for that very first time I ever beat it. I was challenged by a cousin or nephew of my father's then girlfriend. This kid had all the really hard games (Ghosts & Goblins, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Ikari Warriors to name a few), couldn't beat a single one of them. I told him that I beat every one of my games. He said I bet you can't beat this one. I said sure I can, if I time. Okay, do it!, he dared me. It was G&G. So early morning until sundown I played that game, took over his NES and tv. After a few hours he begged me to quit, that he believed me, said I didn't have to play through the whole thing. Oh, no, you challenged me and I'm going to show you that I can do it, sorry. He and my brother watched, but during times of boredom, well, because I died a lot, probably hundreds of times, they had to find something else to do. I remember the only times I paused the game were to eat lunch or drink something and use the bathroom, and I told my brother to make sure that this boy (don't remember his name) didn't turn the system off on me (my brother at those early years was loyal and he wanted to see me beat it too, he knew I could). Then final many hours later... Yes! Whew, there, beat it! But then... This room is an illusion...blah-blah, needed the cross and had to play through it again to beat it for real. It was a crushing blow to me because I wasn't sure that I wanted to go through that again. But I had to play through it again, afterall it was the only way to truly say I beat it, to that boy's dismay, yeah, he was regretting daring me to beat this game. I was exhausted but also very determined. I remember how dry and bloodshot my eyes were when I final finished it.

While I have beaten others really hard games over the years, some even just as harder or harder than Ghosts & Goblins, this game is the one I remember as wearing me down the most, it was rough. I have beaten it a few more times over the years but it's never been a game that ever really got easier. Always hated that they force you to play through it twice, as aside from getting that extra weapon necessary to beat the final boss, there's no difference, just the game designers being sadistic. Pulled one over on me and probably every gamer at that time. Sure we all know the infamy of the game now and having to play through it twice, but back then, it was a surprise, one that drained the life out of you and crushed your spirit. I didn't break so easy though. But because of having to play through it twice is the one big reason I have hardly played this game to completion much, it's just too much work just going through once, no point even playing it unless I want to torture myself that day. Oh, and the damn load time, having to wait for the whole map screen every single time you die, ugh. Actually that may be worst than having to play through it twice, because so much time is wasted on it. And another screwed up thing which could ruin all of your progress, after a game over instead of putting continue first as an option, they start the cursor back on 1 Player, hit that and you begin the game anew, so you couldn't be in a rush to get back into continuing your game, you had to make sure to hit that select button twice, only twice, so make sure that you don't accidentally select 2 Players or 1 Player all over again, must make sure that helmet icon is on "continue", okay, looks safe, now press "start", back where you left off.

 

[Nightowljrm | 72]

9 hours ago, ookii_risu said:

I don't think that's cheating, because it's in the manual. It's like a quiz to see if you did your homework before playing the game. Ingenius... and sadistic.

Anything in the manual is fair game, I think. So while continuing in Milon's Secret Castle is not cheating, continuing in Sky Kid is not (holding down+left on Controller 2 and pressing start on Controller 1) since that's not in the manual.

9 hours ago, ookii_risu said:

This reminds me of a similar topic. If you beat a game on easy, did you *really* beat the game? Some games have extra stages in Normal or Hard modes, for example. I don't play games on Easy mode, but if I beat it on Normal and I get some BS like "You need to play the next mode" I'm going to say screw this and get on with my life.

This is one I go back and forth on. Generally speaking, I consider "making the credits roll" or seeing the end screen as beating the game. Usually if I enjoy the game enough or the content that's locked behind a difficulty (or even second quest) is interesting enough, then I'll make a point to beat it again to see everything. But, at the end of the day, if you made it to the end, you beat it. 

[ookii_risu | 206]

@MeganJoanneNice story of triumph! I bet it was a shocker thinking you beat it and then finding out you had to go through the whole thing again. IIRC, Nintendo Power had a huge segment on  Ghosts 'n Goblins, and I think that's how I found out about having to go through it twice. I rented the game once and didn't get very far as it was.

@NightowljrmThat's definitely my thinking. As far as replay value goes, if I really like a game I might play the harder difficulty, but that's only happened with one or two games that I can remember.