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Nintendo Games Too Large for PowerPak/Everdive


JamesRobot

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Events Team · Posted
49 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I'm well aware there are hacks that have gotten it to work, when I say something isn't supported, I mean natively.

🙄 Not really hacks rather the community adopting and continuing the project.  Brian had already previously included many of loopy's mappers in previous iterations of the official download. 

If you're going to be all semantic, the PowerPak won't run any games at all natively.

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28 minutes ago, JamesRobot said:

🙄 Not really hacks rather the community adopting and continuing the project.  Brian had already previously included many of loopy's mappers in previous iterations of the official download. 

If you're going to be all semantic, the PowerPak won't run any games at all natively.

Someone taking an official release and modifying it is the very definition of a hack. They're hacking the original code.

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1 hour ago, Code Monkey said:

Someone taking an official release and modifying it is the very definition of a hack. They're hacking the original code.

They didn’t hack anything.  They created a mapper file that didn’t exist but was required to run such games and was compatible with the hardware it was made for.  “Hacking” it would be taking an existing mapper and doing something to it to make it do something different.  What’s been done here is called third party support.  Are non-OEM mechanics “hacking” cars when they work on them or use non-OEM parts?  Nope.

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54 minutes ago, darkchylde28 said:

They didn’t hack anything.  They created a mapper file that didn’t exist but was required to run such games and was compatible with the hardware it was made for.  “Hacking” it would be taking an existing mapper and doing something to it to make it do something different.  What’s been done here is called third party support.  Are non-OEM mechanics “hacking” cars when they work on them or use non-OEM parts?  Nope.

Yes, they are. If you're modifying an existing product, it's hacking, what do you think hacking means? Sure it has been associated with doing something negative but it doesn't have to be negative, it's simply modifying something that already exists if you're not the original manufacturer.

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Events Team · Posted
1 hour ago, Code Monkey said:

Yes, they are. If you're modifying an existing product, it's hacking, what do you think hacking means? Sure it has been associated with doing something negative but it doesn't have to be negative, it's simply modifying something that already exists if you're not the original manufacturer.

Irregardless, the fact remains.  PowerPak plays MMC5 just fine.

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@the_wizard_666 and @erac You know I was shocked by it too, so when the opportunity came to trade into it just seeing the shell alone was a #1 mystery I wanted to have -- best crap shoot cart pick up in ages for me.

Infidelity did this back in 2015 but it was glitchy and unfinished, 2017 got it basically done, there was one update after but it's minimal, fuzzy, optional really so I wouldn't care to have a newer version after reading the update sheet over at romhacking.net about it.  Either way it's a fascinating cart, hell of a lot of work, good work went into it.  I just wish I knew how this was made and who did it, so this kind of work could be replicated for more of these, and others like SimCity that would benefit from the advanced chipset capabilities and sizes too.

 

I forgot to show the other side, doesn't add much but worth seeing.  You got a couple caps, another chip, and the battery that retains all those nice saves.

SMAS-FC-Infidelity2017b.jpg.6deed09dddd65198e94fb8f4aaebe25a.jpg

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5 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Yes, they are. If you're modifying an existing product, it's hacking, what do you think hacking means? Sure it has been associated with doing something negative but it doesn't have to be negative, it's simply modifying something that already exists if you're not the original manufacturer.

From what I understand, nothing is modified at all.  It'd be akin to the Game Genie - an unofficial product designed to work with an existing one.  They basically coded a compatible file and provided it for people to run with the existing product. 

 

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2 hours ago, Tanooki said:

@the_wizard_666 and @erac You know I was shocked by it too, so when the opportunity came to trade into it just seeing the shell alone was a #1 mystery I wanted to have -- best crap shoot cart pick up in ages for me.

Infidelity did this back in 2015 but it was glitchy and unfinished, 2017 got it basically done, there was one update after but it's minimal, fuzzy, optional really so I wouldn't care to have a newer version after reading the update sheet over at romhacking.net about it.  Either way it's a fascinating cart, hell of a lot of work, good work went into it.  I just wish I knew how this was made and who did it, so this kind of work could be replicated for more of these, and others like SimCity that would benefit from the advanced chipset capabilities and sizes too.

 

I forgot to show the other side, doesn't add much but worth seeing.  You got a couple caps, another chip, and the battery that retains all those nice saves.

SMAS-FC-Infidelity2017b.jpg.6deed09dddd65198e94fb8f4aaebe25a.jpg

The back doesn't really say much either.  I'd be curious how it works, but I don't see how a board like that would even require rewiring, so my guess is it's still a donor cart...from what I can't tell ya, but using new parts shouldn't require any sort of rewiring at all.

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Well I guess that's the real question that CMR put to it.  This thing is just an utter mystery and while I haven't looked in many months, last few times I tried since getting it I never did see another copy.  I wish I had, wish I had seen a lot, at least then it would help figure out how this could be put to not just more, but better use.  I mean this could save a lot of MMC5 carts from being mutilated.

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Both PowerPak and EverDrive were specifically designed to support mapper implementations outside of the ones they came with. The mapper is implemented using an FPGA or sorts, and can't do anything on its own without any of those implementations.

Saying the PowerPak doesn't support MMC5 is the equivalent of saying the Switch doesn't play Metroid Dread because it didn't come bundled with the game.

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21 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Yes, they are. If you're modifying an existing product, it's hacking, what do you think hacking means? Sure it has been associated with doing something negative but it doesn't have to be negative, it's simply modifying something that already exists if you're not the original manufacturer.

"Hacking" something is modifying an existing product to do something it wasn't designed to do otherwise.  The FPGA in the PowerPak (and EverDrive N8) were designed to be able to correctly recognize and utilize the various mappers that were originally produced for NES/Famicom cartridges.  Bunnyboy simply didn't create the mapper file for the MMC5 mapper before his final release of the PowerPak (and/or its firmware).

By your definition, literally every mapper that was released into the wild (physical or software/FPGA implementation) would be "hacking" because the first cartridges for the NES/Famicom didn't include any  To me (and I imagine many others), this is flat out wrong, as it's not changing the way the NES itself operates (like hacking in an additional CPU/PPU board, RAM, etc., and making the system capable of playing both NES/Famicom AND SNES/Super Famicom cartridges would).  There's a difference between an add-on and a hack.  Adding in a missing mapper that actually existed prior to development for the NES/Famicom concluding wouldn't be hacking anything; I'd still argue that creating a new mapper (as mapper 30 was created by homebrew developers) isn't really hacking anything, as it's simply doing what Nintendo and other developers did back in the day.  Neither is altering the NES/Famicom itself or how it actually functions, it just expands its abilities via add-ons, something virtually every developer (first or third party) did back in the day, be it via mappers included in cartridges or various, gimmicky controllers and other hardware that plugged into the controller port(s).

15 hours ago, CMR said:

How did the chinese manage to come up with an MMC5 compatible chip for their bootlegs so easily?

My guess would be the way they do lots of things like that--they shaved the top off a real chip and looked at how it was done, then either directly copied it or created their own implementation of that functionality.

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21 hours ago, Sumez said:

Both PowerPak and EverDrive were specifically designed to support mapper implementations outside of the ones they came with. The mapper is implemented using an FPGA or sorts, and can't do anything on its own without any of those implementations.

Saying the PowerPak doesn't support MMC5 is the equivalent of saying the Switch doesn't play Metroid Dread because it didn't come bundled with the game.

The difference is Metrod Dread was created by the OEM as companion hardware.

All I know is this. I stated the PowerPak does not support MMC5 and it states that directly on the manufacturer's website to back up my statement. Whether some other random person that isn't associated to the OEM in any way has produced something that will make it work is irrelevant.

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Events Team · Posted
30 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

All I know is this. I stated the PowerPak does not support MMC5 and it states that directly on the manufacturer's website to back up my statement. Whether some other random person that isn't associated to the OEM in any way has produced something that will make it work is irrelevant.

All I know is I played Castlevania 3 on my PowerPak today and any argument that states otherwise is irrelevant. 

Edited by JamesRobot
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Events Team · Posted
44 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

some other random person that isn't associated to the OEM

Loopy (not a random person but a very specific person) is associated with the "OEM" per the official change log on the retroUSB site and I quote, 

NES Mappers v1.30
-------------
  - Added many mappers written by loopy

https://www.retrousb.com/downloads/powerpakchanges.txt

Edited by JamesRobot
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7 hours ago, JamesRobot said:

All I know is I played Castlevania 3 on my PowerPak today and any argument that states otherwise is irrelevant. 

Same here, not that I did that today or own one.  I did, a decade ago when I was on NA.  I got one off someone there on the site as they switched to something else, bunnyboy was quite helpful then updating the firmware.  I remember very clearly playing Castlevania III immediately trying out various things as I wanted to see how solid it was.

Facts are facts, it was designed just like the NES itself and its carts, open ended.  There is no hacking involved, just adding another chip, through code, that's the only change.  Instead of sourcing a MMC5 chip and parts, you're just using new(then) parts and your MMC5 is code vs a chip.  Internally, the same, runs the same stuff, there's no hacking involved.  Loopy was the one who did it, bunny told me since he wasn't making updates on the firmware anymore even at that rate that loopy had taken it over as a partner developer of the mapper code, that's as official to me as it gets.

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