Final Fantasy 1st Edition Sealed (Japan 1st Edition)

[AdamW | 713]

10 minutes ago, Shmup said:

Thanks for the clarification.

I wouldn't personally trust that method, especially with the crap we've seen over the last few months from both companies giving grades that don't really match, but for some that will be good enough to have their stamp of approval.

I think we'll probably see some really messed up grading if Famicom games do start getting graded by these companies.

Oh, VGA has already been doing it for ages. Three sold at certifiedlink today - a Super Mario USA went for over $1k.

I don't really know what you mean by "messed up"? I mean, the number grade will just reflect the box condition. If it's in bad shape it'll get a bad grade.

The biggest potential issue is that some copies which were actually carefully opened get graded as unopened. But hey, that's not really *so* different from the risk of reseals getting graded as legit. Either you trust the graders to be able to tell, or you don't, in the end...

If you send VGA a box they think has been opened but they think the contents are unused, they will offer to grade it as Qualified, I believe. WATA would offer to grade such a copy as CIB I guess.

[Brickman | 3,983]

3 hours ago, AdamW said:

Oh, VGA has already been doing it for ages. Three sold at certifiedlink today - a Super Mario USA went for over $1k.

I don't really know what you mean by "messed up"? I mean, the number grade will just reflect the box condition. If it's in bad shape it'll get a bad grade.

The biggest potential issue is that some copies which were actually carefully opened get graded as unopened. But hey, that's not really *so* different from the risk of reseals getting graded as legit. Either you trust the graders to be able to tell, or you don't, in the end...

If you send VGA a box they think has been opened but they think the contents are unused, they will offer to grade it as Qualified, I believe. WATA would offer to grade such a copy as CIB I guess.

I just meant in regards to whether it is really NIB or not.

If the graders can’t open up the box to check the contents then I think it is pretty easy for scammers to open a box very carefully with a flat object without making any creases. They then put in the correct weight with rubbish and then get it graded as NIB.

Also as I mentioned earlier and Fcgamer’s example. A lot of Famicom games look like absolute trash on the outside of the box but are actually NIB. I don’t really trust Wata or VGA to make a correct decision on whether it was opened or not.

A re seal I think is much easier for a season grader to notice for US NTSC games. Japanese games are a different ball game imo.

[AdamW | 713]

I don't quite really see the angle there, to be honest. There aren't that many JP games for which the cart/manual are worth more than a few bucks. So if you have an actual unopened copy, why take the risk of opening it to take out the very cheap innards versus just grading it as-is? What does it get you? I guess maybe if I was looking at a game that's so rare the cart/manual are actually worth like a hundred bucks or more I might worry about it, but only then...

Something I see as slightly more likely is that a very careful JP gamer/collector might have opened their copy carefully and kept it in pristine shape. The kinda person you get those super clean CIBs with just a slit in the shrinkwrap from. But there aren't gonna be too many of those around, really. Most "unopened" copies you can buy are genuinely just old store dead stock or something.

Edited October 20, 2021 by AdamW

[Brickman | 3,983]

1 hour ago, AdamW said:

I don't quite really see the angle there, to be honest. There aren't that many JP games for which the cart/manual are worth more than a few bucks. So if you have an actual unopened copy, why take the risk of opening it to take out the very cheap innards versus just grading it as-is? What does it get you? I guess maybe if I was looking at a game that's so rare the cart/manual are actually worth like a hundred bucks or more I might worry about it, but only then...

Something I see as slightly more likely is that a very careful JP gamer/collector might have opened their copy carefully and kept it in pristine shape. The kinda person you get those super clean CIBs with just a slit in the shrinkwrap from. But there aren't gonna be too many of those around, really. Most "unopened" copies you can buy are genuinely just old store dead stock or something.

Huh? There are heaps of Famicom and Super Famicom games that the carts and manual are worth a lot of money just on their own. I don’t think you know much about Japanese collecting.

Let me give you an easy example. Lickle (Little Sampson). Some guy finds a super nice copy, carefully opens it up and doesn’t leave a stress mark, takes out the cart and manual, puts the exact weight back in and closes it. They now send it off to be graded and because they are grading it as NIB the grader will have no idea because they can’t open it. The person can now sell the graded Lickle and the contents. 

Next example. An old Lickle is sitting in the back of house getting dusty, gets a little mishandled through the years and gets crushed a little on the opening but was never actually opened. How is the grader meant to know it wasn’t opened when the damage would probably make it look like it was? Sure, it might not grade well but it makes it easy for scammers to open, put the weight in and profit. 

Last example. There are some almost dead on reproductions of Famicom boxes currently circulating Japan that even locals have trouble spotting (have this confirmed by a friend in Japan that knows their stuff) how is a western grader meant to spot these fake boxes? Some of them can barely grade western releases properly.

Anyone looking to invest in NIB Japanese games are taking a big risk. It’s just a completely different market and I doubt western graders know what they’re doing, besides collecting fat cheques from people looking for the next big thing and have more money than sense.

If you don’t believe me feel free to talk to others like fcgamer, optout and tanooki who have been in the Japanese collecting scene for ages. 

[Sumez | 2,935]

$7

[AdamW | 713]

7 hours ago, Shmup said:

Huh? There are heaps of Famicom and Super Famicom games that the carts and manual are worth a lot of money just on their own. I don’t think you know much about Japanese collecting.

[snip]

Uh, I mean, this just seems unnecessarily combative. I think we just have different perspectives. The games I'm mainly interested in are generally not worth more than a handful of bucks cart-only, so I didn't immediately think of your scam angle. Obviously you're mainly interested in different games, so it seemed more obvious to you. In the end we didn't really disagree about anything except how to characterize the number of games where this would be a concern, which I think again is a question of perspective more than anything. As I said, if you're buying one of those, yeah, it'd be something to think about. But since we don't really know for sure whether anyone is trying that, or how good VGA or WATA are at knowing whether a box has been opened, it's all speculation in the end.

[Brickman | 3,983]

1 hour ago, AdamW said:

Uh, I mean, this just seems unnecessarily combative. I think we just have different perspectives. The games I'm mainly interested in are generally not worth more than a handful of bucks cart-only, so I didn't immediately think of your scam angle. Obviously you're mainly interested in different games, so it seemed more obvious to you. In the end we didn't really disagree about anything except how to characterize the number of games where this would be a concern, which I think again is a question of perspective more than anything. As I said, if you're buying one of those, yeah, it'd be something to think about. But since we don't really know for sure whether anyone is trying that, or how good VGA or WATA are at knowing whether a box has been opened, it's all speculation in the end.

All good, just having a healthy discussion  

Either way it plays out, I’ll be sitting from the sidelines anyway. None of my stuff is NIB or even close to it.

[fcgamer | 4,722]

@AdamW @Shmup :

For what it's worth, even if I were into grading, there's no way in hell I'd be buying this crap. Similarly, there are plenty of game boxes that I'd also avoid like the plague, no interest in getting them - and that's coming from a guy that has one of the largest game collections on the island of Taiwan.

There's several reasons for my lack of interest, and if I view some of the cases as a very risky venture, no way in hell any of these grading companies have the knowledge to accurately examine and draw proper conclusions on these items.

[AdamW | 713]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

@AdamW @Shmup :

For what it's worth, even if I were into grading, there's no way in hell I'd be buying this crap. Similarly, there are plenty of game boxes that I'd also avoid like the plague, no interest in getting them - and that's coming from a guy that has one of the largest game collections on the island of Taiwan.

There's several reasons for my lack of interest, and if I view some of the cases as a very risky venture, no way in hell any of these grading companies have the knowledge to accurately examine and draw proper conclusions on these items.

Of course, the cynical take on that is that if a grading company will stick it in a case, someone will buy it, whether they were right or not...

[fcgamer | 4,722]

15 minutes ago, AdamW said:

Of course, the cynical take on that is that if a grading company will stick it in a case, someone will buy it, whether they were right or not...

Well on this particular matter, that's exactly how it'll be. Companies grading and sticking fake shit into cases.

[GPX | 1,369]

On 10/20/2021 at 4:32 PM, Shmup said:

I just meant in regards to whether it is really NIB or not.

If the graders can’t open up the box to check the contents then I think it is pretty easy for scammers to open a box very carefully with a flat object without making any creases. They then put in the correct weight with rubbish and then get it graded as NIB.

Also as I mentioned earlier and Fcgamer’s example. A lot of Famicom games look like absolute trash on the outside of the box but are actually NIB. I don’t really trust Wata or VGA to make a correct decision on whether it was opened or not.

A re seal I think is much easier for a season grader to notice for US NTSC games. Japanese games are a different ball game imo.

I have some VGA “Qualified” games, some Australian Nintendo games (most didn’t come sealed in the 90s) and some UK Megadrive games which come with shrink wrap seals.

I do agree with the reservations you have, but I would also like to point out why I think it’s important to have a “Qualified” grade (opened with new contents):

- dodgy sellers may sell their mint used game as “brand new, opened”, and this can be clarified with a grading company.

- as a mint collector, I like to know the subtle difference in whether a game is “mint but used” and “mint, unused”.

- some games (eg. Megadrive ones) may have a badly damaged seal, so VGA can take out the seal and grade it as “Qualified” (brand new insides); it wouldn’t be fair to call it “CIB”.

Obviously, a Qualified grading is not fool-proof and may get unwanted results. Though there are merits in those wishing to use such a service.