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Tutor vs Client


fcgamer
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Member · Posted

I was baited into a bit of an argument earlier this week, locally, which ultimately went too far last night when one of the parties started making slanderous claims against my reputation. So I'm just curious to hear the opinions of everyone here, on the three points I had initially raised (which weren't taken very kindly).

1. When it comes to private tutoring, who should be setting the price, the tutor or the client? 

It's a very odd thing here in Taiwan, as the clients always try to dictate the prices for lessons. It's not a situation where they are just trying to state their budget, rather it's literally setting the prices per hour.

 

2. Do you need to provide a formal CV / resume for a private tutoring gig, when answering a post online?

I've personally had many private tutoring gigs here in the past, and no one ever asked me for a resume. Similarly, I never asked people for resumes when searching for a tutor either, and back in the States, at least where I grew up, this also wasn't a thing. Maybe offer a free demo to see if it's what you need, but handing out a formal resume for this sort of post feels really foreign to me.

 

3. Does a good resume / CV equate to a legitimate non-pedo/axe murderer tutor?

This was one of the ideas tossed around for the resume, that it would show that the person wasn't a pedo or axe murderer, hack fraud, whatever. I pointed out that whether you are successful in holding down jobs isn't necessarily a reflection of your trustworthiness or character, and that comment wasn't taken very kindly.

 

I'm just curious to hear others' thoughts on the three points above. Thanks.

 

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24 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

1. When it comes to private tutoring, who should be setting the price, the tutor or the client? 

The tutor.

24 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

2. Do you need to provide a formal CV / resume for a private tutoring gig, when answering a post online?

If the client requests background, provide it. Otherwise look for a new client.

25 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

3. Does a good resume / CV equate to a legitimate non-pedo/axe murderer tutor?

No.

 

8 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I've accepted I will never understand Asian culture.

You should work on keeping an open mind.

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  1. It's a free exchange, but I see things starting with the person offering the service. You're free to set and advertise your price, they're free to attempt to negotiate, you're free to accept or reject based on that.
  2. It can't hurt, I guess? If that's what most clients want to see, then you may want to provide it, even if it's not all-encompassing.
  3. Obviously, no. For one thing, you could just lie on your resume. But you could also be a successful/established person and also be a creep.
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Administrator · Posted

 

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

The tutor.

If the client requests background, provide it. Otherwise look for a new client.

No.

Agree. 

 

1 hour ago, CodysGameRoom said:

You should work on keeping an open mind.

No, I think I'll judge all of Asian culture based on one girlfriend, thank you very much.

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Having the client set a price doesn't make any sense to me. Tutors have different values. A college professor is worth more than a high school kid. The tutors understand their experience relative to the other options on the market better than yet-untutored client does, so only they can set a reasonable price for their service.

Wait they're asking for a resume of like... unrelated job history? That seems a little odd, but at the same time I'd be constantly worried about choosing the right tutor so I'd want all the credentials/evidence of a good tutor I could possibly get.

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The tutor sets the price. A seller of any product or service always sets the price. Only the tutor knows the cost and value of his/her own time, whether people are willing to pay it, etc. If it’s too high, clients can find someone else. If the tutor isnt finding any clients, maybe the market doesn’t have enough demand for the level of service they are providing. Whatever the price, the tutor and client should both agree to the price levels prior to any services being given.

Do you need to provide a resume? Its always going to be a matter of supply and demand. If there is enough supply of tutors on a particular subject, people may become more choosy and demand resumes.. If there is a shortage of tutors for that subject, clients will have to settle for what is available. Ultimately it depends on whether the client is willing to accept a tutor without seeing their resume.

There is zero correlation between having a resume and being a psychopath. I am sure there are plenty of psychos with an awesome résumé

 

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2 hours ago, Gloves said:

  

 Agree. 

 

No, I think I'll judge all of Asian culture based on one girlfriend, thank you very much.

Sometimes I give the impression I'm inferring something I'm not, it wasn't just based on one. I've dated more than one but I was basing it on multiple interactions over 20 years.

9 minutes ago, phart010 said:

The tutor sets the price. A seller of any product or service always sets the price. Only the tutor knows the cost and value of his/her own time, whether people are willing to pay it, etc. If it’s too high, clients can find someone else. If the tutor isnt finding any clients, maybe the market doesn’t have enough demand for the level of service they are providing. Whatever the price, the tutor and client should both agree to the price levels prior to any services being given.

Do you need to provide a resume? Its always going to be a matter of supply and demand. If there is enough supply of tutors on a particular subject, people may become more choosy and demand resumes.. If there is a shortage of tutors for that subject, clients will have to settle for what is available. Ultimately it depends on whether the client is willing to accept a tutor without seeing their resume.

There is zero correlation between having a resume and being a psychopath. I am sure there are plenty of psychos with an awesome résumé

 

I would have normally given this same answer but decided not to because of one detail. This only applies in a democratic society and Taiwan isn't exactly a democracy........I don't think. Is it? So if you're not dealing with capitalistic, democratic society, this no longer applies and the rules change.

I don't really think anyone can answer this question, the real answer is that people in this type of society are free to do whatever they choose and if one party doesn't agree, they can walk away from the arrangement and hope the courts will hear it.

Unless I'm wrong about the democracy, I'm sure I'll be quickly educated if that's the case.

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Don't take this the wrong way, but I sometimes read your threads and honestly think you are trolling most of the times.

1. The tutor, based on your "value" for your time.

2. No. Clients may as for a background as they may want to justify you listed price per hour/session for tutoring, but no formal resume

3. Really?

Also, keep in mind, group sessions for tutoring are usually "discounted" as you would work with multiple students at once and not on a 1:1 basis.

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Member · Posted
10 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

I dated an Asian girl and she had some very strange outlooks on life and what was important. It didn't last very long and I've accepted I will never understand Asian culture.

Code Monkey has some very strange outlooks on life and what is important. I've accepted I will never understand Code Monkey culture.

5 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

I would have normally given this same answer but decided not to because of one detail. This only applies in a democratic society and Taiwan isn't exactly a democracy........I don't think. Is it? So if you're not dealing with capitalistic, democratic society, this no longer applies and the rules change.

Taiwan is LITERALLY the MOST democratic country in Asia. It is currently ranked as the 11th MOST DEMOCRACTIC COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/02/02/global-democracy-has-a-very-bad-year

The USA is number 25 on the list... Says it all really! 

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Administrator · Posted
2 minutes ago, OptOut said:

Code Monkey has some very strange outlooks on life and what is important. I've accepted I will never understand Code Monkey culture.

Taiwan is LITERALLY the MOST democratic country in Asia. It is currently ranked as the 11th MOST DEMOCRACTIC COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2021/02/02/global-democracy-has-a-very-bad-year

The USA is number 25 on the list... Says it all really! 

Canada is ranked #5. Rekt! 

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Member · Posted
11 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

I dated an Asian girl and she had some very strange outlooks on life and what was important. It didn't last very long and I've accepted I will never understand Asian culture.

 

6 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Sometimes I give the impression I'm inferring something I'm not, it wasn't just based on one. I've dated more than one but I was basing it on multiple interactions over 20 years.

For someone who claims to be precise in language, you sure do post sloppily.

 

40 minutes ago, OptOut said:

The USA is number 25 on the list... Says it all really! 

Given the shit we've pulled, I'm surprised we made it that high. I mean, we even invaded our own capitol. Do you see the Canadians doing that? 😛

Edited by Tulpa
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1) You know what you would like to charge, the client knows what they are willing to pay.  The tutor isnt getting the gig until those two prices match.  It takes two to make the transaction happen.

That said, whichever party is expected to lead off negotiations could be a cultural matter, and if you want to do business in a culture it is generally best practice to respect their norms to the extent possible.

2) you are selling a specialty service by the session, where your academic history, at least, is highly relevant.  It isn't inappropriate to request an actual resume for this type of job.  You are certainly welcome to refuse - but see my first response about cultural norms. The more you go against them, the fewer opportunities you will have to do business.

3) obviously not. That is an incredibly naive view.  In the USA for any job where people are responsible for kids it is best practice to conduct a background check though law enforcement.

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Member · Posted

I think there were a lot of good points raised here, and @Mega Tank, no I'm not trying to troll anyone, rather I just wanted to see if I was really that out of touch with my thinking, as by some of the comments I received, one would have believed that I drowned puppy dogs or something.

The issue is a bit complex, but here are some things worth considering:

1. Before the early 2000s, English teachers here were earning about $28-30 USD an hour, working at private schools teaching large groups of children. To contrast, the average wage now is about $18-20. This does not take into consideration the rising cost of living, and the money is provided in today's figures, so the salary per 2000 was excellent.

2. The hourly rate average hasn't increased in the past 20 years, yet then again, costs of living are up! Even the prices when I came over a decade ago, were drastically reduced.

3. Supply and demand. There's definitely a much larger supply of teachers here now, though the demand is higher than ever, especially with the push by the government for English/Chinese bilingualism by 2030.

Ironically enough, due to Covid-19, the supply of teachers actually has dropped a bit, though companies haven't really become competitive for their hires, unfortunately.

4. Private 1:1 lessons, was generally about $26-28 an hour, and this was with no resume or CV, and just conversational course, so little planning efforts either.

5. I'm getting paid about $23 an hour for an online course, from a local school, which I teach from my apartment. Again, little preparation as it's mostly conversational.

6. These are figures that are quite average here - I could possibly make a go to negotiate something higher, after being here for so long, but I'm quite satisfied with the rates.

7. There is no reason that a 1:1 tutoring position should offer a client the exact same wage as what they'd be earning working for a boss at a private school, teaching a large class of students.

8. Point 7 is occurring because too many teachers over here aren't assertive about their value. They're the type that comment on such advertisements, "I'd gladly take the position yet I don't need the hours". It validates the offered wage in the minds of the other party. 

Then someone with little experience or someone that is desperate for extra hours (a Russian who speaks English yet can't get a job here as a non native speaker, a black person who struggles to find work due to rampant racism, or even a naive inexperienced FOB that doesn't know better), and suddenly this is the price that everyone wants to offer. In a way it's like the idiots who gauge value of video games on the highest eBay bin price, which hadn't sold for the past ten years.

9. As the (foreign) teachers are in the minority, and while the market is a bit oversaturated, the demand is still high, I believe that it's important to start questioning the "norms" of who sets the price, etc. In the end, a price ultimately will be negotiated, but as the minority group with the desired commodity, especially those who are experienced, we should be mentioning some of the points above, otherwise we are just screwing ourselves out of money and lowering our own value.

 

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Member · Posted
8 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I think there were a lot of good points raised here, and @Mega Tank, no I'm not trying to troll anyone, rather I just wanted to see if I was really that out of touch with my thinking, as by some of the comments I received, one would have believed that I drowned puppy dogs or something.

The issue is a bit complex, but here are some things worth considering:

1. Before the early 2000s, English teachers here were earning about $28-30 USD an hour, working at private schools teaching large groups of children. To contrast, the average wage now is about $18-20. This does not take into consideration the rising cost of living, and the money is provided in today's figures, so the salary per 2000 was excellent.

2. The hourly rate average hasn't increased in the past 20 years, yet then again, costs of living are up! Even the prices when I came over a decade ago, were drastically reduced.

3. Supply and demand. There's definitely a much larger supply of teachers here now, though the demand is higher than ever, especially with the push by the government for English/Chinese bilingualism by 2030.

Ironically enough, due to Covid-19, the supply of teachers actually has dropped a bit, though companies haven't really become competitive for their hires, unfortunately.

4. Private 1:1 lessons, was generally about $26-28 an hour, and this was with no resume or CV, and just conversational course, so little planning efforts either.

5. I'm getting paid about $23 an hour for an online course, from a local school, which I teach from my apartment. Again, little preparation as it's mostly conversational.

6. These are figures that are quite average here - I could possibly make a go to negotiate something higher, after being here for so long, but I'm quite satisfied with the rates.

7. There is no reason that a 1:1 tutoring position should offer a client the exact same wage as what they'd be earning working for a boss at a private school, teaching a large class of students.

8. Point 7 is occurring because too many teachers over here aren't assertive about their value. They're the type that comment on such advertisements, "I'd gladly take the position yet I don't need the hours". It validates the offered wage in the minds of the other party. 

Then someone with little experience or someone that is desperate for extra hours (a Russian who speaks English yet can't get a job here as a non native speaker, a black person who struggles to find work due to rampant racism, or even a naive inexperienced FOB that doesn't know better), and suddenly this is the price that everyone wants to offer. In a way it's like the idiots who gauge value of video games on the highest eBay bin price, which hadn't sold for the past ten years.

9. As the (foreign) teachers are in the minority, and while the market is a bit oversaturated, the demand is still high, I believe that it's important to start questioning the "norms" of who sets the price, etc. In the end, a price ultimately will be negotiated, but as the minority group with the desired commodity, especially those who are experienced, we should be mentioning some of the points above, otherwise we are just screwing ourselves out of money and lowering our own value.

 

Something also to consider is that a lot may be learning on YouTube with self-taught lessons and therefore the need for a private tutor may lessen. YouTube is certainly a factor that is unique compared with the year 2000.

Covid19 may also be a factor in people wanting to have less personal direct tutoring, and opting more for the online education.

At the end of the day, it’s essentially the supply and demand thing. The tutor can set for as high as he wants, and the client can set for as low as he wants. Prices are the result of middle-grounds. I think that applies for most cultures and not just Asian. Either that, or @Code Monkey may have a point.

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Member · Posted
6 hours ago, GPX said:

Something also to consider is that a lot may be learning on YouTube with self-taught lessons and therefore the need for a private tutor may lessen. YouTube is certainly a factor that is unique compared with the year 2000.

Covid19 may also be a factor in people wanting to have less personal direct tutoring, and opting more for the online education.

At the end of the day, it’s essentially the supply and demand thing. The tutor can set for as high as he wants, and the client can set for as low as he wants. Prices are the result of middle-grounds. I think that applies for most cultures and not just Asian. Either that, or @Code Monkey may have a point.

This isn't an online versus private 1:1 tutoring issue though, I had just listed some online prices for comparison/reference reasons.

There's still a huge demand for private tutoring, especially for kids.

The issue more stems from a reverse market manipulation, I feel.

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7 hours ago, fcgamer said:

This isn't an online versus private 1:1 tutoring issue though, I had just listed some online prices for comparison/reference reasons.

There's still a huge demand for private tutoring, especially for kids.

The issue more stems from a reverse market manipulation, I feel.

I would think it has more to do with the proliferation of "digital nomad" types effectively flooding the market while seeking a reliable east Asian foothold.

While the internet access item mentioned may not be directly undermining your services, what it has done is make it a lot easier for more people offering similar services to be OK with moving away from home to work abroad in a field that is perceived (in the west), rightly or wrongly, as the low hanging fruit for a westerner seeking employment in Asia.

 

 

I would be interested to hear more about why you found the request for a resume so offensive, though. Seems like if you have applicable experience it would be worthwhile to justify your requested price.

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Member · Posted
On 9/23/2021 at 12:47 PM, fcgamer said:

I was baited into a bit of an argument earlier this week, locally, which ultimately went too far last night when one of the parties started making slanderous claims against my reputation. So I'm just curious to hear the opinions of everyone here, on the three points I had initially raised (which weren't taken very kindly).

1. When it comes to private tutoring, who should be setting the price, the tutor or the client? 

2. Do you need to provide a formal CV / resume for a private tutoring gig, when answering a post online?

3. Does a good resume / CV equate to a legitimate non-pedo/axe murderer tutor?

1 - Tutor, always.  If they don't like your price, they can pound sand.  YOU value what you're worth, not some (in your area) asian version of a Karen trying to get something for nearly nothing because they feel like it.

2 - No, a formal one at least no.  Examples of your work, free demo for first session, maybe even a reference verbal or written list of current/past clients.  That should be enough.  If someone wants a full sheet, maybe they need to go hire an actual full time/formerly full time retired teacher with an active/expired cred document and degree.

3 - Hah no, maybe it's not normal over there, but just pop up Fox News, CNN, Reuters and do a site history search on teachers either fucking, beating, ...both... their students.  I bet they have a good resume, official, and unofficial(with students.)  If they're being that shitty, might as well toss that back in their face.

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Member · Posted
4 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

1 - Tutor, always.  If they don't like your price, they can pound sand.  YOU value what you're worth, not some (in your area) asian version of a Karen trying to get something for nearly nothing because they feel like it.

2 - No, a formal one at least no.  Examples of your work, free demo for first session, maybe even a reference verbal or written list of current/past clients.  That should be enough.  If someone wants a full sheet, maybe they need to go hire an actual full time/formerly full time retired teacher with an active/expired cred document and degree.

3 - Hah no, maybe it's not normal over there, but just pop up Fox News, CNN, Reuters and do a site history search on teachers either fucking, beating, ...both... their students.  I bet they have a good resume, official, and unofficial(with students.)  If they're being that shitty, might as well toss that back in their face.

It looks like we have the same sort of mindset regarding this.

I recently started giving private guitar lessons to a student, I offered a free demo (hey, why not?), and we went from there. I wasn't asked how many bands I was in, or to see a demo tape.

From where I stand, it's private lessons, I remember once my brother got help from a local tutor in math, we never asked to see a resume or even for a demo, that's not how tutoring works where I'm from.

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Member · Posted
5 hours ago, arch_8ngel said:

I would think it has more to do with the proliferation of "digital nomad" types effectively flooding the market while seeking a reliable east Asian foothold.

While the internet access item mentioned may not be directly undermining your services, what it has done is make it a lot easier for more people offering similar services to be OK with moving away from home to work abroad in a field that is perceived (in the west), rightly or wrongly, as the low hanging fruit for a westerner seeking employment in Asia.

 

 

I would be interested to hear more about why you found the request for a resume so offensive, though. Seems like if you have applicable experience it would be worthwhile to justify your requested price.

The whole issue stems back to the culture here, and it becomes a power dynamic.

In the States, for instance, if you see your child's tutor in the streets, you'd likely give him or her "the nod", at worst, maybe even stop and chat for a bit. Here, you'll get blanked, 9/10 times.

As mentioned earlier, there hadn't been a pay raise for about 20 years, working regular classes. Obviously private lessons should be worth more than a class where a student is 1/20, right?

This even reflects in the fact that a 1:1 music lesson is almost the same as an hourly rate for a teacher getting paid to do a class.

This particular parent wanted the moon (asked for a large teaching outline upfront, etc) yet similarly only offered to pay (below) going rate for a private tutor, actually only offering the same amount as what a teacher would earn per hour teaching an hour in a 15-20+ kid class.

To me that's honestly offensive, an offer to do more work for equal or less money.

At best, the woman wasn't aware of market value, but honestly I don't think that's the case, as even some foreigners jumped on my ass about it.

I honestly think it's a matter of people (foreigners) trying to protect their own interests, with locals also trying to score "a deal" from the desperate or uninformed. 

 

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Member · Posted

To put it another way:

"Hi, I'm looking for someone to make me a Nintendo game. I want it to have XYZ features. I want it on a cartridge.

Please show me references and a resume of your work. Please also show me how many expositions your company has attended.

I'm willing to pay you $1000 to make the game. Thanks!"

Guy B: "I got another gig that's giving me waaaaay more money, but yeah , sure, sounds good , I'd totally take your offer if I weren't so busy. Too bad my other jobs pay more, lol"

Yeah, it's a bad look.

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