Dumars2001 | 164 Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 5 hours ago, Maertens29 said: I saw that I had a single view come from VGS and I was like...... Have I been mentioned here!? I'll gladly accept this small cameo. Thank you sir. Nice! I love watching your videos! Keep up the great work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumars2001 | 164 Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 3 hours ago, AdamW said: Well...yes. There are people buying and people selling. That's the definition of a market. It could be a very small market, it could be a very unstable market, it could vanish in six months, but it's still a market. The very concept of a market is intended to exclude the sorts of value judgments you want to make about whether it "should" exist: it's intentionally a very disinterested concept. If someone's buying and someone's selling, you've got a market. I mean, I don't have any skin in this game either, really. I don't have anything anyone at HA would be interested in buying. I just have a different opinion on how likely it is that a high-end games market will turn out to be real and sustainable. Is it, on some level, absurd to pay half a million dollars for a copy of Super Mario Bros? Of course it is. We left the realm of vaguely objectively identifiable value long ago. If you want to play Super Mario Bros there are a hundred ways you can do it that would make more sense than paying half a million dollars for a sealed copy and opening it. If you want to look at the box art you can find lots of pictures of it on the internet. (Or just buy a not sealed box for a lot less money). But it's not really any more absurd than paying that range of money for a comic book. Or for a coin. Or for an orchid. Or for a stamp. Art is arguably slightly different, because there really only is exactly one Sunflowers (well, actually, there are a few, but who's quibbling) or The Scream or whatever. But a comic's just a press-printed replica of some art some guy drew. You can read the contents of Action Comics #1 for free very easily, and it's not very artistically significant, is it? It's a hokey story about a guy who can pick up cars. It's culturally significant, but it's not really the same thing. A coin is a small disc (usually) of metal you can point at and say "this small disc of metal is very old and there aren't very many of them around any more!" A rare orchid is a plant that usually doesn't look any prettier than a thousand other plants you could buy for a dollar. A stamp is an intentionally disposable bit of paper with possibly a picture on the front and some glue on the back. And yet there are longstanding and sustainable markets valuing certain instances of all those things in hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars. The internet informs me that the record sale for a coin is $10m, unless I'm missing something; the record price paid for an orchid seems to be $100,000, but then I only looked at one page of search results; the record price for a single stamp is $9.48m. Would you say, objectively, that spending nearly $10m on this reddish irregular octagon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_philatelic_items#/media/File:British_Guiana_1856_1c_magenta_stamp.jpg is more or less insane than spending half a million dollars on a not-quite-first-print of Super Mario Bros? I mean, it seems hard to say... Some of those markets are very small and more or less everyone in them knows each other, and yet there they are and have been for decades. I have to agree with your views about this subject and think you hit the mark on many points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
final fight cd | 186 Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 (edited) Can somebody explain how HA works? I’m so confused. Auction started 21 days ago. It ended. But now the “live” auction begins? When does the live auction end? And what is the difference between the normal auction and live auction? I’ve only ever used eBay, so pardon my ignorance. Edited April 4, 2021 by final fight cd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tidaldreams | 654 Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 52 minutes ago, final fight cd said: Can somebody explain how HA works? I’m so confused. Auction started 21 days ago. It ended. But now the “live” auction begins? When does the live auction end? And what is the difference between the normal auction and live auction? I’ve only ever used eBay, so pardon my ignorance. HA is a live auction and has an auctioneer marketing the product to bidders and accepting bids (think art auction houses like Christies, etc.). There is technically no end time and bidding will continue until there is only one bidder left (e.g., if there is a price war between two bidders, the auction will continue until one backs out). The bids you see before the live auction starts are "proxy bids" (what people will pay without seeing the item), and determine the starting price of the live auction. Ebay OTOH has a set end time that won't change if there is a price war, and doesn't have an auctioneer marketing the product. A good auctioneer should have deep knowledge and be able to effectively market the product to bidders to engage them, which would ultimately affect the sale price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumars2001 | 164 Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 (edited) Some insane prices are currently rolling in from today's auction, which is still on going. Complete udder madness with these prices! Here are just a few examples below. Nes The Little Mermaid for $5040 Nes Monopoly for $3,840 Nes Rampage (later seal) for $3,600 Nes Karnov for $28,800 Nes Kung Fu (later print) $5,160 Nes Adventure Island for $16,800 Nes Back to the Future for $4680 Nes Jackal for $1980 Nes CIB 1942 for $1680 Nes Commando for $15,600 Nes Excitebike (later print) $9,600 Nes Tetris $3,720 Nes Rad Racer (later seal) $5,760 Nes Tyson's Punchout CIB 7.5 (early print) $2,040 Edited April 5, 2021 by Dumars2001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW | 713 Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 Yikes, i quit following after the premier Pokémon block the other day. Stuff sure be crazy. I should check what the lower tier pokemons went for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonebone | 1,307 Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 I've seen Geocities websites in 1996 with better reliability than HA had today. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoctorEncore | 3,690 Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 I bet the guys at Wata are laughing their assess off (after wiping them with $100 bills, of course) looking at the population reports. How many of these buyers are Bitcoin millionaires? I have disposable income and could join the party if I really wanted to, but I can't comprehend parting with my hard earned money as frivolously as these buyers do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW | 713 Posted April 4, 2021 Share Posted April 4, 2021 Yikes, hello - in the 'reactions to HA' category, someone just bought this VGA 90-graded Pokemon Yellow (the white ESRB print which I reckon is first print) for $65,000:https://www.ebay.com/itm/184684645993?nordt=true&rt=nc That's interesting given how little HA's WATA 9.6-graded copy sold for the other day - "only" $18,000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIB_Wholesale | 418 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 22 minutes ago, AdamW said: Yikes, hello - in the 'reactions to HA' category, someone just bought this VGA 90-graded Pokemon Yellow (the white ESRB print which I reckon is first print) for $65,000:https://www.ebay.com/itm/184684645993?nordt=true&rt=nc That's interesting given how little HA's WATA 9.6-graded copy sold for the other day - "only" $18,000. it makes sense because of the way the condition crosses over with the cash multiplier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW | 713 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, SealedWholesale said: it makes sense because of the way the condition crosses over with the cash multiplier It makes sense (you know, so far as these things make sense at all :>) compared to the price of the WATA 9.8 copy HA sold in November ($78k) but I was surprised the 9.6 copy in this auction went so "low", I didn't figure it'd get such a discount for being "one grade" lower. Seems like WATA 9.6 can really go different ways in HA sales, depending on how the buyers are feeling. I get the feeling maybe HA buyers are worried about how many 9.6 Pokemons might be out there, but feel safer about 9.8s... Edited April 5, 2021 by AdamW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIB_Wholesale | 418 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 19 minutes ago, AdamW said: It makes sense (you know, so far as these things make sense at all :>) compared to the price of the WATA 9.8 copy HA sold in November ($78k) but I was surprised the 9.6 copy in this auction went so "low", I didn't figure it'd get such a discount for being "one grade" lower. Seems like WATA 9.6 can really go different ways in HA sales, depending on how the buyers are feeling. I get the feeling maybe HA buyers are worried about how many 9.6 Pokemons might be out there, but feel safer about 9.8s... Seems like there is a market for something like a Beckett 10 grade. Why doesnt Beckett do video game grading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumars2001 | 164 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 I find this almost unreal. this buyer won this back on August 18, 2019 GoldenEye 007 (NES, Nintendo, USA, 1998) Wata 9.6 A++ (Seal Rating).... Auction 121933 | Lot: 15250 | Aug 18, 2019 Sold For: $384.00 and look at the offers he has received (to sell) for it to date: Offers to date:$25,000 on March 15, 2021$3,500 on February 12, 2021$2,500 on February 12, 2021$1,500 on February 4, 2021 Keep in mind, that this is a players choice version too! Just shows the craziness happening right now. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiamiSlice | 3,089 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 20 hours ago, Jono1874 said: Can we really call a bunch of highly priced games being passed around among a absurdly small group of people a "market"? If someone were to look into what kind of connections these buyers have, how many of these people know each other personally? If myself and 50 friends pool a bunch of money together and start a bunch of high profile auctions for something inane, and we begins selling them to each other for $100,000 a pop, does that create a market? That's what this WATA/Heritage thing appears to be. Just a bunch of guys with a load of cash, throwing it at each other. That money never really leaves the pot. You may get some outsiders here and there, but is the market truly a market if there is no room for growth? What I see in certain in certain people online, in the Pawn Stars stuff, is desperation. "Oh look! Better watch out! your rare games are gonna be worthless someday! better invest in this instead!! XD" and so on. If this were organic or they had even a shred of confidence in what they're doing, they wouldn't be out there trying so hard to shove it down peoples throats. They suspect it isn't sustainable, and they suspect that their time is limited before the whole thing potentially calapses on itself. You're so late on this. You could have posted this a year ago and maybe it would have been valid. Not anymore. Hang around where normie collectors are - Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, etc. You'll see high end collectors, not "high end video game collectors," but high end collectors, who regularly buy and sell 5 or 6 figure collectibles, are now including video games and Pokemon cards in their portfolios. These are people who were trading sports cards, comic books, fine art, watches, etc. for years. Wata / Heritage accelerated the hype by opening up the subcategory in their comics section and the demand has arrived. You'll also find people who are better off than the average thrift store video game hunter, ready to drop 4, 5 figures on sealed or graded video games, and they are doing this as a short or long term investment, and they do this with other stuff too. I had my first experience selling to this kind of crowd a couple months ago and my head was spinning from how enthusiastic they were about it and how ready they were to put serious money in. Better yet, go into the Heritage Auctions categories outside of video games. Look at comic books and the rest of the stuff they have there. You will see years worth of lot after lot after lot of stuff moving for 4, 5 figures with no end in sight. These are mature markets now, people expect that the value is there long term, and their are enough high rollers out there that can continue to bring the demand. Then go check out some of the other auction houses and see how much money continues to come and go in these various categories. Look, there was a time when high end comic books or trading cards like Magic The Gathering seemed like niche markets that didn't have legs. There was a time when people questioned them. But there was enough hype and cultural validity for those things that new buyers came along with enough money to keep propping up the values until we got to the point that no one questions the prices of the high end items in these categories any more. I think this $660k SMB will show up again at one of these auction houses, sometime down the road, and could fetch more when it does. Sure, there could come a time when the market has a major correction, prices come down across the board, etc. But I think that's more likely to happen across all the collectibles markets, not just in this one. Because there's no reason to believe that the current mania is unjustified in this one market but justified in all the others. Either they are all justified or none are. And to that last point I will say, Garbage Pail Kids collectibles have exploded in value in the past year. If games are a bubble then it can't be the worst one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code Monkey | 2,005 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 3 hours ago, tidaldreams said: HA is a live auction and has an auctioneer marketing the product to bidders and accepting bids (think art auction houses like Christies, etc.). There is technically no end time and bidding will continue until there is only one bidder left (e.g., if there is a price war between two bidders, the auction will continue until one backs out). The bids you see before the live auction starts are "proxy bids" (what people will pay without seeing the item), and determine the starting price of the live auction. Ebay OTOH has a set end time that won't change if there is a price war, and doesn't have an auctioneer marketing the product. A good auctioneer should have deep knowledge and be able to effectively market the product to bidders to engage them, which would ultimately affect the sale price. Are you saying the online bids aren't actually bids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiamiSlice | 3,089 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 1 hour ago, DoctorEncore said: I bet the guys at Wata are laughing their assess off (after wiping them with $100 bills, of course) looking at the population reports. How many of these buyers are Bitcoin millionaires? I have disposable income and could join the party if I really wanted to, but I can't comprehend parting with my hard earned money as frivolously as these buyers do. I'd reckon more of them are Tesla millionaires than Bitcoin millionaires. There have been so many ways to make money over the past 10 years, we've had a big growth in the top end of the income bracket. (This is typical when you have rapid inflation.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
final fight cd | 186 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, Code Monkey said: Are you saying the online bids aren't actually bids? I still don’t get it. So the auction is open for 21 days and bids are placed. But after the proxy bids end, the live auction begins? So the first 21 days is completely useless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tidaldreams | 654 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Code Monkey said: Are you saying the online bids aren't actually bids? No, they are real bids. I assume that the item would just sell at the highest proxy bid if there are no bids in the live auction, though if that happens the auctioneer has done a pretty poor job. Edited April 5, 2021 by tidaldreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tidaldreams | 654 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 4 minutes ago, final fight cd said: I still don’t get it. So the auction is open for 21 days and bids are placed. But after the proxy bids end, the live auction begins? So the first 21 days is completely useless? No, that is to gauge that the starting price of the live auction and generate interest. It would be a waste of everyone's time if all the live auctions start at $100 or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code Monkey | 2,005 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 12 minutes ago, tidaldreams said: No, they are real bids. I assume that the item would just sell at the highest proxy bid if there are no bids in the live auction, though if that happens the auctioneer has done a pretty poor job. So it goes to auction, then it does to a second auction? How do you bid in the second auction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
final fight cd | 186 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, tidaldreams said: No, that is to gauge that the starting price of the live auction and generate interest. It would be a waste of everyone's time if all the live auctions start at $100 or whatever. Gotcha. That makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW | 713 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 The online bids are real bids. Online bidders can bid as high a maximum bid as they like. But once the auction goes "live", internet bidders can't raise their max. The live bidders are then bidding against the highest internet bid until they reach it; if no live bidder bids as high as the highest internet bid, the internet bidder wins at the next multiple over whatever the highest live bid was. As soon as a live bidder outbids the highest internet bid, the auction is only between active live bidders. Most items in the current auction that I saw wound up going to live bidders, but not all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Code Monkey | 2,005 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 2 hours ago, AdamW said: The online bids are real bids. Online bidders can bid as high a maximum bid as they like. But once the auction goes "live", internet bidders can't raise their max. The live bidders are then bidding against the highest internet bid until they reach it; if no live bidder bids as high as the highest internet bid, the internet bidder wins at the next multiple over whatever the highest live bid was. As soon as a live bidder outbids the highest internet bid, the auction is only between active live bidders. Most items in the current auction that I saw wound up going to live bidders, but not all... I still don't understand what a live bidder is. How do you bid if you aren't using the internet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamW | 713 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 Well, pre-pandemic, by going to the actual auction. I think now they have proxies at the auction house taking the bids on the phone or in some kind of closed chat system or something. They only show the auctioneer on the live stream so I dunno for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tidaldreams | 654 Posted April 5, 2021 Share Posted April 5, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, AdamW said: The online bids are real bids. Online bidders can bid as high a maximum bid as they like. But once the auction goes "live", internet bidders can't raise their max. The live bidders are then bidding against the highest internet bid until they reach it; if no live bidder bids as high as the highest internet bid, the internet bidder wins at the next multiple over whatever the highest live bid was. As soon as a live bidder outbids the highest internet bid, the auction is only between active live bidders. Most items in the current auction that I saw wound up going to live bidders, but not all... Ok, this is actually different from how I thought it works lol. I thought you can still bid online during the live auction though? Edited April 5, 2021 by tidaldreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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