The history of the Metroid Series

[phart010 | 1,705]

51 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Ugh... I don't know.  I'm being open minded here with that Treehouse bit.  I really don't like that one hit kill bit with EMMI, they're a bit TOO aggressive, but the rest doesn't feel as gimmicky and grating than that gameplay downgrade that was Samus Returns.  There are some good mechanics here, clearly took what SR did and refined some the turd elements into something more workable here.  Just finished clip #1 of 2 making that comment.

I feel I could own this, maybe a gift?  It's clearly a true sequel from Fusion seeing what is there and that's a plus.

I'm just not going to like some here be an (intentional or not) by looks Nintendo apologist who sees minimal to no wrong and just want this, and want it now.  Not going to be an internet dumpster troll either, something about it appeals, some about it also is very unappealing.

Is this Mercury Steam again?  Or did Nintendo do this.  MS is a very hit and miss company with old IP, did like the 3DS/PC game of Castlevania, but even it's a bit on the weird side mixing up like 3 games in 1, but it worked ok.

I believe it is Mercury Steam again. That’s not necessarily a deal breaker though. I’m sure Nintendo is overseeing many aspects of the project.

I have a lot more hope in this than with Samus Returns. The counter attack wasn’t necessarily a bad thing in Samus Returns, it just seemed to be overused. Like it was the solution to beating every single enemy and boss. It’s a cool thing to have, just not too much it. I think having the EMMI sequences helps balance it out so it’s not all melee combat. 

Speaking of the EMMI sequences, your right - they are one hit kill. But they give you a fair warning that your entering an EMMI room, so I think that’s fair. 

I was just thinking about how the sound of EMMI came to be. Back in Metroid NES there were these eerie rooms just before you get a weapon and also the areas where you use the elevators. The soundtrack in these rooms had this creepy tune that made you really feel alone.
 

They adapted this soundtrack in Super Metroid. It still kinda sounded similar but they changed the sounds in the track into futuristic sounding beeping noises. In pretty much all the rooms where you’d hear this soundtrack, you are either alone or solving a puzzle. 
 

The beeping sounds that the EMMI makes are very reminiscent of the beeping sounds in those transition areas in Super Metroid. Thinking back to it, I wonder if replaying Super Metroid after having played Metroid Dread will feel any different since you’ll probably now be associating those rooms with the helpless feeling you get while being chased by an EMMI

Edited June 17, 2021 by phart010

[Reed Rothchild | 9,510]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

I'm just not going to like some here be an (intentional or not) by looks Nintendo apologist who sees minimal to no wrong and just want this, and want it now.

And I'm not going to be perpetually negative about a pasttime that is a fun escape from actual pressing real world issues.

And I don't want it now.  I want SMTV now.  I'll get Dread when it goes on sale for $40 6-12 months from now. 

[Reed Rothchild | 9,510]

(I'll also concede that a hypothetical 2D Metroid that completely blows the doors off the franchise/genre in maybe the same way a game like BoTW did would be an amazing thing, but that this will not be that, because Nintendo will make Metroid Prime 4 the tentpole title, not this, because the reality of gaming in 2021 is that a big AAA 3D shooter thingy is a much bigger deal than any 2D sidescroller)

[DefaultGen | 5,400]

I'm interested to see how innovative this will be, or if it's just a 2.5D iteration on Super Metroid. We have a lot of Super Metroid-style games these days. Metroid, Super Metroid, and Metroid Prime were all game changers, something totally new. I love Nintendo's mold-breaking games (Mario Galaxy, BOTW, Metroid Prime, etc.). I mean, I'll play it and enjoy it either way, I just hope it's at least a little more than "New Super Metroid U".

Also anyone else hate 2.5D? It just looks so cheap as an art style. I think the New Super Mario Bros games are the closest to pulling it off, but even those probably have the worst style of any Mario game. Some games use it alright like Shadow Complex or Inside, but those are never going to look as good as a Super Metroid, Cuphead, or The Messenger.

[Tanooki | 4,930]

@phart010 I don't mind it either, they just have a very hit and miss relationship with old franchises.  And that IS exactly my problem why I used the word gimmick.  They took something that should be optional, and was also a bit fiddly too on the controls as well, and made it forced, a lot, way too much.

The EMMI issue I'm starting to get a bit more chill on seeing that cloak.  You can clearly short of being in line of sight, evade them as long as you don't run out of juice, then life, if they don't just walk into you of course.  That spares some of the ugly of that problem.  Either way, been too long since I've bothered with Metroid 3, so, if that's accurate good point and probably it would.

@Reed Rothchild That was a wide comment, not just a shot at you I've seen far far worse.  And yeah it's an escape from what sucks, that's why when a game sucks that makes it even worse.  I've got more pressing stuff I should bother with too, but I'm beyond 100% evade at this rate and just going to see how it goes.  I also agree with you they're being very targeted with this, and I'd love a real BOTW stylized 'open world' style Metroid if it was handled very similarly there, not a slog like Skyrim and other painful chores are.  But hey yeah 3D wooo, MP4 will topple this, despite it being the spinoff while this is the original franchise.

[Sumez | 2,933]

58 minutes ago, DefaultGen said:

We have a lot of Super Metroid-style games these days.

Lots of games wanting to be Metroid, sure. But I have very rarely seen any other game understand what Super Metroid does well and try to replicate it.

The only game I can think of offhand with similar qualities is King's Field (jp KF2)
 

[phart010 | 1,705]

1 hour ago, Sumez said:

Lots of games wanting to be Metroid, sure. But I have very rarely seen any other game understand what Super Metroid does well and try to replicate it.

The only game I can think of offhand with similar qualities is King's Field (jp KF2)
 

Have you tried Axiom Verge? 

It fits somewhere between Metroid 1 and Metroid 3.  The story may not be the easiest to follow, but the mechanics of the game have captured the spirit of what makes a good Metroid game. It possibly does Metroid better than Metroid does Metroid. If not for the lower quality graphics, Axiom Verge would be right up there with Super Metroid. It’s a VERY VERY good game in my opinion.
 

Props to Thomas Happ. You have given me happiness

Edited June 17, 2021 by phart010

[Sumez | 2,933]

Ok, I'm *really* earning my "grumpy gamer" card in this thread, but I have to be honest, I didn't care much for Axiom Verge. I was enjoying myself well enough to play it through, but it felt very bland and generic to me, like a ton of other indie metroidvanias. Not like Metroid at all. I think its biggest qualities was all the unique weapons you could play around with.  

Edited June 17, 2021 by Sumez

[phart010 | 1,705]

3 minutes ago, Sumez said:

Ok, I'm *really* earning my "grumpy gamer" card in this thread, but I have to be honest, I didn't care much for Axiom Verge. I was enjoying myself well enough to play it through, but it felt very bland and generic to me, like a ton of other indie metroidvanias. Not like Metroid at all. I think its biggest qualities was all the unique weapons you could play around with.  

Would you have liked it more if you could change the character sprite to Samus?

[Sumez | 2,933]

I would have liked it more probably if exploring the map felt exciting, and not just like routinely mapping out a video game, with a bunch of forced backtracking for the hell of it.

It doesn't help of course that I've placed literally dozens of other games with this exact basic structure (many of which are better, I even liked Shadow Complex over Axiom), but Super Metroid still stands out as a masterpiece.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Sumez

[Reed Rothchild | 9,510]

I also thought Axiom was merely a 7/10 sorta deal.

Hollow Knight though... that kinda recaptured some of the dark, foreboding, mysterious atmosphere of Super Metroid.  At least, I thought it did.

[phart010 | 1,705]

33 minutes ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I also thought Axiom was merely a 7/10 sorta deal.

Hollow Knight though... that kinda recaptured some of the dark, foreboding, mysterious atmosphere of Super Metroid.  At least, I thought it did.

I’ve never thought of Super Metroid as being dark. Definitely the wrecked ship was. But to me it’s always felt more exciting because of the discoveries. Kinda like snorkeling/scuba diving on a coral reef in Hawaii. Or like exploring Mayan ruins. There’s a lot of interesting things to see everywhere you go. 
 

Thinking about it now, I guess you are right. When you first get to Crateria, it is abandoned. But once the camera detects you, the whole place wakes up and it actually becomes pretty lively in my opinion. Same for Green Brinstar, theirs lots of life and even the music is pretty lively.

 

Edit: thinking about this some more.. it goes back and forth between dark/foreboding/mysterious and lively. On arrival in Crateria it’s dark. Then it becomes lively until you get to the plant boss.. pretty mysterious. Then it becomes mysterious in Red Brinstar. Norfair is lively again. Kraids lair is dark and mysterious. The path to the ship is lively, but the wrecked ship itself is dark. Maridia is mysteriously lively. Then Ridleys lair is lively but in a threatening way. Finally, Tourian is mysterious.

There’s a lot of mood dynamics at play

 

Edited June 17, 2021 by phart010

[Sumez | 2,933]

I'd say Super Metroid is "dark" in the context of making you feel really lost on an unknown planet, moreso than straight up scary/creepy.

[Tanooki | 4,930]

7 hours ago, Sumez said:

Ok, I'm *really* earning my "grumpy gamer" card in this thread, but I have to be honest, I didn't care much for Axiom Verge. I was enjoying myself well enough to play it through, but it felt very bland and generic to me, like a ton of other indie metroidvanias. Not like Metroid at all. I think its biggest qualities was all the unique weapons you could play around with.  

You deserve a thanks on that...I felt the same.  I even wanted to make sure, I've owned it twice, and the second time I got fed up with it and didn't even bother finishing it before asking enough just to break even and get out from under the thing.  It's just not that interesting, like you said basically, more indie game wannabe 'metroidvania' filler and I'm over that for the most part.  I can enjoy a random one still here and there like Bloodstained from IGA, and I think Dead Cells from watching a lot, it may fit that rare case of it works (though it's as much a lose all your stuff rogue too so it's dissimilar.)

Facing reality really, the truth comes down to it.  Nintendo for better or worse nailed it so damned hard with Super Metroid they set a limbo bar so well 99% of the drunks in line fall on their ass and don't even come close.   IGA with or without Konami was a rare case of matching such ability as Nintendo pulled off, his game got graced and well earned as such owning half that metroidVANIA moniker.  Coupling those 2 titles/franchises into that name set a bar few seem to understand how to come near matching.  It happens, but rare, like a full solar eclipse.

[phart010 | 1,705]

10 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

You deserve a thanks on that...I felt the same.  I even wanted to make sure, I've owned it twice, and the second time I got fed up with it and didn't even bother finishing it before asking enough just to break even and get out from under the thing.  It's just not that interesting, like you said basically, more indie game wannabe 'metroidvania' filler and I'm over that for the most part.  I can enjoy a random one still here and there like Bloodstained from IGA, and I think Dead Cells from watching a lot, it may fit that rare case of it works (though it's as much a lose all your stuff rogue too so it's dissimilar.)

Facing reality really, the truth comes down to it.  Nintendo for better or worse nailed it so damned hard with Super Metroid they set a limbo bar so well 99% of the drunks in line fall on their ass and don't even come close.   IGA with or without Konami was a rare case of matching such ability as Nintendo pulled off, his game got graced and well earned as such owning half that metroidVANIA moniker.  Coupling those 2 titles/franchises into that name set a bar few seem to understand how to come near matching.  It happens, but rare, like a full solar eclipse.

I was surprised listening to Iga speak about his inspiration for Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. If I remembered correctly, he said his inspiration for SOTN was actually Zelda LTTP, not Super Metroid. Very weird, as everyone considers SOTN to be Super Metroids cousin.

[Tanooki | 4,930]

I think I heard that before too at some point as confusing as it is. I mean I guess it makes some sense, you have the hunt, the breakable walls, etc of LTTP there definitely, but sticking to the 2D style of Castlevania, they seemed equally if anything inspired by their own Castlevania II along with LTTP to craft SOTN.  In that case despite looks, it would fit having SM3 just a coincidence both set the bar so well.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

On 6/17/2021 at 11:49 AM, phart010 said:

I just finished watching the first one. Sounds like they have figured out the importance of the exploration component of the game. Also they specifically mentioned that Adam will not be bossing you around in this game. 

I never played any of the modern Metroid games, but if they feature a dude with a boring name like Adam, yeah no thanks, honestly doesn't seem to fit imo.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

21 hours ago, RH said:

Well, this is my opinion but I think the big picture is, many of us love Metroid originally for what it was in it's early days-- open exploration where you could get lost. Yes, back-tracking for long passages could suck, but this still added to the feel that you were in a real world, where caverns are random and you never know where your next target will be.  That process is refined a little bit as the series went on, but still, Metroid worlds were open for exploration and once one boss was defeated and a new skill was acquired, you had to remember where that skill would have been useful to progress in a different direction OR you have to hunt down a new path you've missed.

Fans of the series since the first decade have missed that gameplay.  That is "Metroid" on a spiritual level.  All of these other games could truly be amazing titles and worth being loved... but it's not the original experience and that's what we'd like to get back to.

Again, I'm all for both.  Sure, you can create these linear, FPS spin-offs or even pinball games, but also have the OG style series, with added power-ups, better graphics and bigger worlds.  That's what we've been longing for.

 

This is exactly how I feel, and it's the same feeling I have about Castlevania.

I don't play Castlevania to feel like I'm playing OG Metroid, and I don't play Metroid to feel like I'm playing Halo or whatever FPS it best mimics.

So while these could be excellent games in their own right, the direction they are going doesn't suit me as a fan of said franchises.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

17 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

Also anyone else hate 2.5D? It just looks so cheap as an art style. I think the New Super Mario Bros games are the closest to pulling it off, but even those probably have the worst style of any Mario game. Some games use it alright like Shadow Complex or Inside, but those are never going to look as good as a Super Metroid, Cuphead, or The Messenger.

Yup, I'm not a fan of that style either.

[Sumez | 2,933]

8 hours ago, phart010 said:

I was surprised listening to Iga speak about his inspiration for Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. If I remembered correctly, he said his inspiration for SOTN was actually Zelda LTTP, not Super Metroid. Very weird, as everyone considers SOTN to be Super Metroids cousin.

Makes sense to me. Super Metroid and SOTN represent two vastly different approaches to the same genre. Almost complete opposite ends of the spectrum. And most indie metroidvanias go the SOTN route because it's easier to replicate. Or, I should say, harder to fuck up. A lot of its quality comes from the incredible work done on its various assets, where there's a a lot more depth to Super Metroid's experience.

That's not saying I think Super Metroid is better, that's a really tough match-up. I love both games. But there really is almost nothing else like SM.

[TDIRunner | 2,727]

22 hours ago, DefaultGen said:

Also anyone else hate 2.5D? It just looks so cheap as an art style. I think the New Super Mario Bros games are the closest to pulling it off, but even those probably have the worst style of any Mario game. Some games use it alright like Shadow Complex or Inside, but those are never going to look as good as a Super Metroid, Cuphead, or The Messenger.

I used to enjoy it more.  There was even a point where I wished for a Super Metriod remake in the style of NSMB.  But I guess I've grown tired of it as I would much rather see these 2D games done with sprites.  

[spacepup | 2,404]

20 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

I also thought Axiom was merely a 7/10 sorta deal.

Hollow Knight though... that kinda recaptured some of the dark, foreboding, mysterious atmosphere of Super Metroid.  At least, I thought it did.

I personally thought Hollow Knight was amazing and absolutely loved it.  Almost every time I talk about how much I like it, someone tells me how overrated it is, or it isn't that great.  Which is fine if that is their opinion - but I LOVED the style and felt the gameplay was great.  There was so much to explore, and a lot of variety / difficulty in the boss fights.  It was easy to get lost in the world.

[phart010 | 1,705]

16 minutes ago, spacepup said:

I personally thought Hollow Knight was amazing and absolutely loved it.  Almost every time I talk about how much I like it, someone tells me how overrated it is, or it isn't that great.  Which is fine if that is their opinion - but I LOVED the style and felt the gameplay was great.  There was so much to explore, and a lot of variety / difficulty in the boss fights.  It was easy to get lost in the world.

I tried but didn’t follow through more than maybe an hour or two. Didn’t really seem to be that interesting in my opinion. I’m not really a fan of games that have a death and darkness feel though. But for some reason I really like Castlevania.

Maybe I’ll have to pick it back up and finish more of the game to see if it gets better

[Sumez | 2,933]

I honestly think Hollow Knight has a warm sense of cuteness that really permeates the "darkness" feeling it typically gets more credit for nicking from Dark Souls. I think it's the best strength of the game.

Like Axiom Verge, Hollow Knight is a very traditional indie metroidvania that doesn't try to reinvent the wheel, but the atmosphere in the game really sets it above most of the rest (they don't have anything on Treasure Adventure Game, An Untitled Story, or Castle In The Darkness though, IMO )

[phart010 | 1,705]

On 6/17/2021 at 2:26 PM, Sumez said:

Lots of games wanting to be Metroid, sure. But I have very rarely seen any other game understand what Super Metroid does well and try to replicate it.
 

I think some of the things that made Metroid games so good was just the feeling of exploring these alien environments on this alien planet that’s full of these alien life forms. The “enemies” are not all out to get you, a lot of them are just living their lives. Yes, some of them are genuinely aggressive. Others while non-aggressive are still pretty dangerous to touch, their life consists of just climbing around on walls or flying back and forth. Kinda like a porcupine, they probably won’t come after you, so if you got hurt touching one, that’s kinda your own fault. Samus doesn’t really have to kill them all, they’re basically like alien animals she comes across just minding their own business. Then there’s also the ones that are friendly and try to teach you how to do special moves. There’s a few enemies that are unique, you only see them in like one place in the entire game, so just seeing that enemy is rewarding in itself. And there’s also the family of invincible turtles that for some reason wants to launch you up into the air to find that energy tank. It just adds to feel of being on a real alien planet.

Speaking of that energy tank, that’s another thing that made the game great. All item treasures that are hidden everywhere. Beating the game is one thing, but the other half of the experience is when you get to re-explore all the areas and you even find secret rooms, and secret rooms within secret rooms. And then there the hidden items that you can uncover but have to think creatively about how your gonna get them. Like in blue Brinstar, the E tank on the ceiling... you can uncover it but you can’t reach it right away. There’s also items hidden in places you wouldn’t think to look, like the missile packs in the lava pit in the hot room. 

Another thing I think was appealing was the presentation of the items and weapons. On the 2D games, something about the way the items looked was just visually exciting, this was somehow lost in 3D Metroid. Getting items truly felt like acquiring treasures. Maybe it was the way the sprites looked or the way they flickered or the sound it made when you picked it up, but they just felt really satisfying to get. I also feel like part of the presentation of the items is also lost in 3D games like Prime because the entire room and item are moving in relation to Samus, whereas in 2D Metroid, the item/room is static, so the item itself becomes the focal point of the entire room.

In Maridia, the really long pipe that you travel through that takes you into the depths of Maridia just gives you this feeling that your going really deep into the flooded part of the planet. There’s kind of a sense of desperation that goes along with that, probably like what cave divers feel as they are going deeper into a cave. But then that is replaced by a sense of relief when you discover a secret path that leads to another area that you’ve already been to, and your left feeling kind of marveled at how an area you thought was so far away was actually interconnected with another place that your familiar with.

Edited June 21, 2021 by phart010