Console Debate #31 Playstation 2

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

21 minutes ago, Californication said:

 

If you look at the number of units the Nes sold and compare it to the PS2, knowing no other information we know that the Nes would have a high probability of being less sales because the market was smaller. The Nes was in the 3rd generation and the PS2 was in the 5th generation.

Let's say we look at sales as a percentage of the market that way we can get rid of any skew from the changes in population and size of the market. Atari sales were what percentage of the market, 90%? Nes was what percentage 90%? These are just guesses, but the point I am trying to make is that if we look at the percentage of the market the data is still incomplete because most of us wouldn't rank the Nes and PS2 on the same level of greatness. 

So using quanitity sold is incomplete for measuring the goat. Quantity is more a measure of how popular a console is at a point in time. But goat should be a measurement over all consoles life cycles.  

 

Dominance in the early history of video games isn’t an impressive feat though.

Generation 1 was the Magnavox Odyssey and approximately 1000 pong clones.

Generation 2 was Atari, Intellivision, Colecovision, and about 40 no name consoles that don’t matter culturally causing a massive crash in the US.

Generation 3 was NES recovering the market, and the Sega Master System and Atari 7800 just sitting in the background as noise somewhere.

Generation 4 is where competition begins to build with SNES, Genesis, TG16, Neo Geo, CD-i.

Generation 5 introduces the mass adoption of CD technology and Nintendo losing its footing. We have PS1, N64, Saturn, Jaguar, and 3DO.

Finally, generation 6 is where we see things become solidified, this is THE turning point for the industry as a whole forever more! Dreamcast out the gate first, and soon we get PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube....NOTHING else, no background noise.....unless you really consider Xavix, Nuon, and VTech V.smile in the same arena.

 

Sony already dominated the previous market generation out of pure spite alone, they then hit it out of the park again with the PS2, got experimental but greedy with the PS3, and won again with the Ps4.

they’re seemingly #1 out of the only 2 companies still making game consoles to this day...and an Xbox 5 doesn’t seem likely if Microsoft pushes Xbox on PC.

 

Sony didn’t just win the console race that generation, they MURDERED sega, made Nintendo choke (and eventually drop out of the home console race all together), and scared away ALL of the competition to the point that only the worlds TRILLION dollar companies (Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, Google) can even make failing attempts to try to maybe possibly hopefully compete with them in areas of the market they mostly ignore today...

They didn’t just win the console race...they won Video Games as a whole, and the PS2 is where they did it.

Edited June 12, 2021 by ThePhleo

[Californication | 1,477]

2 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Dominance in the early history of video games isn’t an impressive feat though.

Generation 1 was the Magnavox Odyssey and approximately 1000 pong clones.

Generation 2 was Atari, Intellivision, Colecovision, and about 40 no name consoles that don’t matter culturally causing a massive crash in the US.

Generation 3 was NES recovering the market, and the Sega Master System and Atari 7800 just sitting in the background as noise somewhere.

Generation 4 is where competition begins to build with SNES, Genesis, TG16, Neo Geo, CD-i.

Generation 5 introduces the mass adoption of CD technology and Nintendo losing its footing. We have PS1, N64, Saturn, Jaguar, and 3DO.

Finally, generation 6 is where we see things become solidified, this is THE turning point for the industry as a whole forever more! Dreamcast out the gate first, and soon we get PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube....NOTHING else, no background noise.....unless you really consider Xavix, Nuon, and VTech V.smile in the same arena.

 

Sony already dominated the previous market generation out of pure spite alone, they then hit it out of the park again with the PS2, got experimental but greedy with the PS3, and won again with the Ps4.

they’re seemingly #1 out of the only 2 companies still making game consoles to this day...and an Xbox 5 doesn’t seem likely if Microsoft pushes Xbox on PC.

 

Sony didn’t just win the console race that generation, they MURDERED sega, made Nintendo choke (and eventually drop out of the home console race all together), and scared away ALL of the competition to the point that only the worlds TRILLION dollar companies (Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook, Stadia) can even make attempts to try to maybe possibly hopefully compete with them in areas of the market they mostly ignore today...

They didn’t just win the console race...they won Video Games as a whole, and the PS2 is where they did it.

And when you stack up the PS2 library to other consoles what happens? The graphics don't hold up. And I personally would rather play a different library more of the time.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

Just now, Californication said:

And when you stack up the PS2 library to other consoles what happens? The graphics don't hold up. And I personally would rather play a different library more of the time.

Maybe, but that’s where we get into to “subjective” nature again.

My oldest son thinks NES sucks and would rather play Minecraft and Roblox despite them also being graphically inferior in today’s environment.

But we all know that Contra, MTPO, Ninja Gaiden, Double Dragon, Tetris, Mega Man 2, Zelda, and Castlevania 3 are some of the greatest games of all time....Mario 3 possibly being the #1 tie GOAT between it and Super Mario World, and Mario 1 maybe being the most culturally significant game of all time. (Yeah there can’t be a SMB without Mario Bros., DK Jr., and Donkey Kong before it...but still)

[Californication | 1,477]

6 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

Maybe, but that’s where we get into to “subjective” nature again.

My oldest son thinks NES sucks and would rather play Minecraft and Roblox despite them also being graphically inferior in today’s environment.

But we all know that Contra, MTPO, Ninja Gaiden, Double Dragon, Tetris, Mega Man 2, Zelda, and Castlevania 3 are some of the greatest games of all time....Mario 3 possibly being the #1 tie GOAT between it and Super Mario World, and Mario 1 maybe being the most culturally significant game of all time. (Yeah there can’t be a SMB without Mario Bros., DK Jr., and Donkey Kong before it...but still)

So ya I don't know all the historical stuff, but if what you are saying is accurate that the PS2 was the pivotal point for Sony's success I understand that part of your argument. But as someone who has libraries from 15 consoles, and enjoys playing video games, I care about what is the best over time. Video games are art and good art is timeless.

(Edit: and obviously my taste in libraries is clearly subjective I don't play sports, racing, turn based rpg's, strategy, rhythm.)

Edited June 13, 2021 by Californication

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

2 minutes ago, Californication said:

So ya I don't know all the historical stuff, but if what you are saying is accurate that the PS2 was the pivotal point for Sony's success I understand that part of your argument. But as someone who has libraries from 15 consoles, and enjoys playing video games, I care about what is the best over time. Video games are art and good art is timeless.

This being VGS, I know you probably are using one, but If you’re not using a CRT then you’re missing out on what the PS2 should look like.

Purely on a graphics perspective, it is the last console generation where CRT is a must. Some games on the next generation up are practically unplayable on a CRT (Final Fantasy 13’s text was unreadable for example)

[Robot_Ninjutsu | 122]

On 6/12/2021 at 7:46 PM, ThePhleo said:

Generation 4 is where competition begins to build with SNES, Genesis, TG16, Neo Geo, CD-i.

Uhh...CD-i?  I wouldn't consider the CD-i a serious contender in that battle.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

8 hours ago, Robot_Ninjutsu said:

Uhh...CD-i?  I wouldn't consider the CD-i a serious contender in that battle.

I think they sold more units than the Neo Geo, so you’d probably have to take away that as well.

Edit: Yep just checked Wikipedia. They’re virtually tied.

Super Nintendo Entertainment System	49.1 million[75]
Mega Drive/Genesis	35.25 million[cn 2]
TurboGrafx-16	10 million[81]
Philips CD-i	1 million[82]
Neo Geo AES	980,000[83]
Neo Geo CD	570,000[84]

Edited June 14, 2021 by ThePhleo

[Sumez | 2,933]

Good thing we have sales numbers to inform of us the quality of various console platforms.

[Robot_Ninjutsu | 122]

On 6/14/2021 at 8:45 AM, ThePhleo said:

I think they sold more units than the Neo Geo, so you’d probably have to take away that as well.

Edit: Yep just checked Wikipedia. They’re virtually tied.

Super Nintendo Entertainment System	49.1 million[75]
Mega Drive/Genesis	35.25 million[cn 2]
TurboGrafx-16	10 million[81]
Philips CD-i	1 million[82]
Neo Geo AES	980,000[83]
Neo Geo CD	570,000[84]

The CD-i is not a contender because it didn't have the games.

I'm trying hard to imagine the sea of kids descending up stores, demanding copies of "Hotel Mario" and "Link: The Faces of Evil".

[RH | 4,895]

Sorry to segue a bit, but since you guys are talking about the Neo Geo, I'm just going to ask a question in case you know.

In the 90s when the AES and MVS were being sold, where did you even buy those things?  In my entire childhood, I never saw one.  Not even in a store.   Whether Walmart/K-Mart or department stores in the mall, some of which had electronics sections and a small selection of video games.

If you had the money and wanted one back in the day, how did you even get one, much less where did you find the games?

Edited June 16, 2021 by RH

[Robot_Ninjutsu | 122]

I'm rather curious about that myself.

I've only physically seen one Neo Geo in my life, and it happened to be at at the game store I worked at in my 20's.

 

[TDIRunner | 2,727]

34 minutes ago, RH said:

Sorry to segue a bit, but since you guys are talking about the Neo Geo, I'm just going to ask a question in case you know.

In the 90s when the AES and MVS were being sold, where did you even buy those things?  In my entire childhood, I never saw one.  Not even in a store.   Whether Walmart/K-Mart or department stores in the mall, some of which had electronics sections and a small selection of video games.

If you had the money and wanted one back in the day, how did you even get one, much less where did you find the games?

 

[cj_robot | 540]

5 hours ago, RH said:

Sorry to segue a bit, but since you guys are talking about the Neo Geo, I'm just going to ask a question in case you know.

In the 90s when the AES and MVS were being sold, where did you even buy those things?  In my entire childhood, I never saw one.  Not even in a store.   Whether Walmart/K-Mart or department stores in the mall, some of which had electronics sections and a small selection of video games.

If you had the money and wanted one back in the day, how did you even get one, much less where did you find the games?

I only ever saw one once, and it was in some department store at the mall, not a place I expected to see video games. I just remember being blown away by the size of the arcade joysticks that it came with. By then I had read about the games in magazines, but this was the first time I had seen what the actual console looked like. Turned out to actually be the last time I would ever see one.

[RH | 4,895]

13 hours ago, cj_robot said:

I only ever saw one once, and it was in some department store at the mall, not a place I expected to see video games. I just remember being blown away by the size of the arcade joysticks that it came with. By then I had read about the games in magazines, but this was the first time I had seen what the actual console looked like. Turned out to actually be the last time I would ever see one.

Any chance you recall the store it was in, or at least multiple stores it was likely in?  I'm guessing this was a system sold in a place like Nordstrom or Niemann Marcus (if Nieman Marcus has an electronics area.)

Both of those shops were not in Columbia but the fanciest department store we had  was Dillards.  There were no games in Dillards.

Edited June 16, 2021 by RH

[cj_robot | 540]

10 hours ago, RH said:

Any chance you recall the store it was in, or at least multiple stores it was likely in?  I'm guessing this was a system sold in a place like Nordstrom or Niemann Marcus (if Nieman Marcus has an electronics area.)

Both of those shops are in Columbia but the fanciest department store we had in Columbia, SC was Dillards.  There were no games in Dillards.

Can't remember, but it must have been either Macy's or Nordstrom because that's what we had in our mall. I just remember being surprised to see it, and then never seeing it there again. This was sometime in the early 90s, so I was probably 10-12 years old.

[Robot_Ninjutsu | 122]

Macy's *AND* Nordstrom in your mall?

 

I was actually thinking maybe Macy's would carry something pricey like the Neo Geo, but I didn't have one near me until 2003.

[GPX | 1,369]

Not sure if anyone’s mentioned this before, the library is definitely the strong point of the PS2 argument. One important aspect of its library being the interactive/party games:

- Dance mat games

- karaoke games (eg. Sing Star)

- instruments gaming (eg. DJ Hero, Guitar Hero)

- Eyetoy games

The games above really is what helps to differentiate the modern 3D consoles to that of the “retro” 3D consoles (eg. PS1, Xbox Original, Saturn etc.). And I had a blast playing some of these types of games!

The PS2 helped to draw in the casual gamers like no other console before it, and I think it’s impact in the party gaming scene is definitely a strong factor in why it was so popular back then. The forefather to the Wii in some regards, and a console certainly fun for the entire family or social gatherings.

[phart010 | 1,705]

20 hours ago, GPX said:

Not sure if anyone’s mentioned this before, the library is definitely the strong point of the PS2 argument. One important aspect of its library being the interactive/party games:

- Dance mat games

- karaoke games (eg. Sing Star)

- instruments gaming (eg. DJ Hero, Guitar Hero)

- Eyetoy games

The games above really is what helps to differentiate the modern 3D consoles to that of the “retro” 3D consoles (eg. PS1, Xbox Original, Saturn etc.). And I had a blast playing some of these types of games!

The PS2 helped to draw in the casual gamers like no other console before it, and I think it’s impact in the party gaming scene is definitely a strong factor in why it was so popular back then. The forefather to the Wii in some regards, and a console certainly fun for the entire family or social gatherings.

Ughh whenever I think about dance mats I mentally get whiff of stinky dance nerds playing Dance Dance Revolution at the arcade. That stink is burned into my memory