Learning Japanese

[Tanooki | 4,932]

1 minute ago, Renmauzo said:

Like Tanooki, the last time I was actively working on my Japanese was 20 years ago. I took weekend classes that were open to all ages, it cost $20 a semester and my teacher was a retired teacher from Kyoto who moved to Canada when her husband retired. The weekend classes were a massive help; there were textbooks/workbooks, homework to be done for the following week, and an even focus on reading, writing, and oral. Check what's available in your community; classes are still cheap and the structure of a class setting - at least for me - helped.

On my own, I'd go to a Japanese convenience store close to me and get the newspaper (the owner would have them brought in every week with his shipments) and the local Japanese community centre would publish a weekly newsletter that was free, so I would use those to practice. Check to see what your local Japanese community centre is doing and what resources they have available.

I took a 'Japanese as a second language' course (101 & 102) in college which had a bunch of other great workbooks (I'll look for them downstairs later today) which was a great way to stay immersed throughout the week.

So, while not as specific as others, the key for me was immersion and repetition, and an expectation that it was going to take time, so I needed to be patient. Having another language besides English is a great asset, as other languages have commonalities grammatically (for me, having French and Spanish helped).

I'm rusty now, so it's been nice reading through this thread as it's really stoking the fire and making me think it's past time to get it back.

Nice, yeah very similar, just different country basically.  What sucks as we know here from my NA days, I'm not from KY, did not grow up here, 25 years in (mostly) San Diego county, and another 3 back there 8+ years ago too for a stint.  Due to that the community was in many places, it was quite easy for me to keep some level of skill up.  Around the Clairemont area of SD county there's a really sweet couple blocks of nothing but Japanese shops, markets, home goods, entertainment/fun stuff, even a Book Off.  Closer was the game shop I used to enjoy too.  It wasn't hard for me to drive down a couple times a month or more and just buy manga, browse stores, get some import games, etc and I'd take my sweet ass time and keep trying to read up this and that and it is SO helpful.

Sadly, all I have here, as far as I know, it Choi's Asian Food Market which has a Japanese section, along with chinese, tai, and a few other randomness.  Not very helpful, so unless I want some Japanese candies or some new real green tea that's imported no help there.

I'm poking away at that duolingo though, but it is limited unless you pay as it uses an energy system to do more lessons.  I guess that's ok, to space it out so you're not doing too much.  That other app I mentioned isn't limited though in my last post.

[Brickman | 3,983]

8 hours ago, Tanooki said:

@Shmup Yeah that's why I added the notes, why they had given the books away free, but being old files on youtube the links croaked and NHK just hadn't corrected it probably being forgotten.  Combine with the book which helps a lot, because while the video does it, it's far trickier, it's a great combination.  It will give you a LOT of vocab, but the major thing, you get situational Japanese backed with ALL the grammar needed for a kid or adult to hold an intelligent conversation.  So if you can master that book/video you'll be able to do excellent in written and spoken Japanese, mostly conversational which is normal, but has formal as well too.

 

That Kirsten Dunst modern version of that classic 80s tune is awesome.  The comments leading to that, it's making me think I need to check out duolingo.  I would like to get the rust off my Japanese as I keep bumping into it online and the lack of ability to handle once what I could comfortably do is slowly bluntly pissing me off.

 

Edit: Installed that duolingo/made account.  Kind of surprised I got a perfect on lesson starter bit 1.  Curious to see how this works long term, cost, etc.  Seems a bit too good for free.

Also I forgot to mention Tae Kims Guide to Learning Japanese on ios (android?) is free and has some helpful stuff.

I like to think of Duolingo as a supplement to study. You won’t learn to master Japanese using it but it’s good to do a few levels a day as part of your routine to solidify things you learn elsewhere.

I personally prefer LingoDeer but you do have to pay for it after a few lessons.

If you mastered 101 & 102 you probably won’t get too much out of either app besides as a refresher.

Thanks for the recommendation, I’ll check out Tae Kim’s Guide to learning Japanese.

[Tanooki | 4,932]

I've read that Busuu is far better in ways than duolingo, it's a pay thing, but more effective.  I'm not looking to spend at this rate, maybe if it got serious.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

I’d love to learn to speak, read, and write Japanese in order to properly document and archive Famicom games.

I’ve got a very very low level understanding of European languages like German, Spanish, and Italian for this reason.

[Brickman | 3,983]

4 hours ago, ThePhleo said:

I’d love to learn to speak, read, and write Japanese in order to properly document and archive Famicom games.

I’ve got a very very low level understanding of European languages like German, Spanish, and Italian for this reason.

No time like the present!

I’m enjoying it so far and don’t even mind kanji (for now at least).

If I start really progressing I might edit my first post with all my resources and study schedule.

[Tanooki | 4,932]

Go for it use Duolingo to start along with the videos I supplied and find the companion books(3) in pdf and you’ll be set for elementary level Japanese. That’s more than enough for old games. Worked for me when I was fluent enough. 

[DoctorEncore | 3,691]

As you're probably starting to realize from all the varied responses here and throughout the internet, there is no shortcut. You simply have to be disciplined and study a lot. Native Japanese students don't have any special methods for learning Kanji (there are some very basic tips such as breaking them down into their radicals). Instead, they learn them through sheer repetition and memorization.

I took Japanese for two years at a major university (University of Michigan) and it was the hardest, most time-intensive course I took. And I wasn't taking easy classes, I was in the honors college and earned bachelor's degree in biochemistry with high honors. I even took some pretty advanced math and physics courses. In fact, my college Japanese courses were probably harder than any single class I took in medical school.

If you want to learn the language for real, try to get signed up for an in-person college class and really dedicate yourself to the lessons. If you can't do that, the Genki series is the textbook I used and it's pretty good (https://www.amazon.com/dp/4789014401/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_YCQGZFZ34AGNKE0K3KSK).

The bottom line is you just need to sit down and put in the work. Give yourself an hour a day with no distractions and literally just study. Get some notebook paper and practice your hiragana and katakana just like a grade school kid would. Keep doing that for long enough and you'll eventually have a good grip on it. Then move on to sentence structure and grammar. It's very different than English and it is challenging, but you can do it.

Repeat after me: The key to adult learning is repetition.

[Brickman | 3,983]

7 hours ago, DoctorEncore said:

As you're probably starting to realize from all the varied responses here and throughout the internet, there is no shortcut. You simply have to be disciplined and study a lot. Native Japanese students don't have any special methods for learning Kanji (there are some very basic tips such as breaking them down into their radicals). Instead, they learn them through sheer repetition and memorization.

I took Japanese for two years at a major university (University of Michigan) and it was the hardest, most time-intensive course I took. And I wasn't taking easy classes, I was in the honors college and earned bachelor's degree in biochemistry with high honors. I even took some pretty advanced math and physics courses. In fact, my college Japanese courses were probably harder than any single class I took in medical school.

If you want to learn the language for real, try to get signed up for an in-person college class and really dedicate yourself to the lessons. If you can't do that, the Genki series is the textbook I used and it's pretty good (https://www.amazon.com/dp/4789014401/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_fabc_YCQGZFZ34AGNKE0K3KSK).

The bottom line is you just need to sit down and put in the work. Give yourself an hour a day with no distractions and literally just study. Get some notebook paper and practice your hiragana and katakana just like a grade school kid would. Keep doing that for long enough and you'll eventually have a good grip on it. Then move on to sentence structure and grammar. It's very different than English and it is challenging, but you can do it.

Repeat after me: The key to adult learning is repetition.

Yep definitely great advice. I have studied German and Spanish so I know the hard slog with language learning, but I know Japanese will be harder with the kanji.

For kanji I was using remember the kanji but it wasn’t doing it for me. I’m now using the website wanikani and it is really good. It uses spaced repetition learning and breaks kanji down into learning first the radicals then kanji and then words. Highly recommend it if anyone is also looking into learning Japanese.

I don’t currently have time for in person classes but I’ve tried them in the past and find them to be not useful because you go at the pace of the slowest class members. I’ll get a tutor once I’m past the beginner stage. Genki, tanooki’s videos, Duolingo, Anki flash cards and wanikani will easily teach me beginner to intermediate I think.

[shindo | 2]

@DoctorEncore has some great advice, as does all the other posters in this thread. Repetition is key when learning as an adult. When I first came to Japan almost 14 years ago now, I didn't know a word of the language. I knew I had to get competent fast, so I just put my head down and studied every free moment I had. Of course, what works for one person might not work for another, but my preferred method was using flashcards. Old school, hand-written flash cards. Look around your room and write down random items, verbs, etc and then translate them. For me, it was important to actually write the kanji/furigana myself. It helped to codify the word into my brain. Then, just go through them. All the time. Once you get better, try to narrate your life in Japanese. You'll sound stupid (I sure did!) but being unwilling to make an ass of yourself will really, really set you back in your learning. 

Now, you kids are spoiled with your newfangled smartphones, so you can download a huge amount of vocab and just do them on the train, or in your room, or on the toilet, wherever. Memorize a group of them, and then move on to more. Do this in conjunction with going through a textbook (the go to is probably still Japanese for Busy People) and also listening to as much Japanese as you can. Youtube videos, anime, news, whatever. The more input, the better. If you're having fun, it's much easier to study. So, watch your Ghibli movie without subtitles and write down a word if you don't know it to look up later. Or play a game in Japanese only. It helps, trust me. You could also sign up for lessons online with Japanese teachers, or find a language partner. Easier to do in non-pandemic times, but they are out there.

Of course, immersion is cheating if you can actually move here! That was my shortcut. Now I use mostly Japanese throughout the day and in my job. It opens up so much in a culture. Good luck!

[fcgamer | 4,723]

I've honestly seen a lot of bad "advice" in this thread, it's worrying. 

Here's a few points to consider, upon which I feel strongly:

1. University classes are generally a waste of time, the pace generally moves rather slow compared to what you can do with self-study.

2. Self-study has its own set of perils, such as falling into "bad habits" or mistakes.

3. Study abroad / immersion at a beginner's level is a waste of time, honestly. The very basics of any language can be quickly learnt at home, unless you have infinite money you should only do your stints abroad after already knowing the basics, to propel you to the next level.

4. Do not study grammar out of context, ever.

5. Do not ever get hung up on "trying to sound like a 'native' speaker", whatever that even means. 

6. Word etymology is your friend.

7. Don't get hung up about tones, either.

8. In this day and age, recognition is much more important than writing or spelling.

9. Rote memorization is definitely *not* necessary, and is actually detrimental to learning.

10. "Translating " , generally due to point 9, leads to a decrease in fluency and progress, and should also be avoided.

11. Focus on what you know, rather than what you don't know.

12. Adults can learn languages equally as effective as children can, if not better, it's just that 99% of them follow 1 - 11 and are therefore learning wrong.

I know I may come across sounding arrogant, but I feel very strongly on this issue. I have personally done almost all of the about mistakes with my earlier language-learning, and I have also witnessed people falling into these very same pitfalls in my ten + years of teaching others foreign languages. 

This also comes after years of studying languages in various ways, to different levels of success. I have working knowledge of the following, aside from English:

German, Dutch, Afrikaans, Latin, Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, and Wan Ghu*, though over the years I have also learnt about Croatian, Bulgarian, French, Japanese, Anglo Saxon, and Yiddish, as well as the Cyrillic and Hebrew alphabets.

*Wan Ghu is a constructed language that I hashed out over the course of a weekend whilst in a coffee shop, a month or so back. 

Edit: if anyone wants me to elaborate on the reasoning behind any of the points above, please feel free to comment.

On a different note, I also used to hang out on a bunch of polyglot forums, and over time you really start to understand the most efficient ways for learning another language.

Edited April 14, 2021 by fcgamer

[Brickman | 3,983]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

I've honestly seen a lot of bad "advice" in this thread, it's worrying. 

Here's a few points to consider, upon which I feel strongly:

1. University classes are generally a waste of time, the pace generally moves rather slow compared to what you can do with self-study.

2. Self-study has its own set of perils, such as falling into "bad habits" or mistakes.

3. Study abroad / immersion at a beginner's level is a waste of time, honestly. The very basics of any language can be quickly learnt at home, unless you have infinite money you should only do your stints abroad after already knowing the basics, to propel you to the next level.

4. Do not study grammar out of context, ever.

5. Do not ever get hung up on "trying to sound like a 'native' speaker", whatever that even means. 

6. Word etymology is your friend.

7. Don't get hung up about tones, either.

8. In this day and age, recognition is much more important than writing or spelling.

9. Rote memorization is definitely *not* necessary, and is actually detrimental to learning.

10. "Translating " , generally due to point 9, leads to a decrease in fluency and progress, and should also be avoided.

11. Focus on what you know, rather than what you don't know.

12. Adults can learn languages equally as effective as children can, if not better, it's just that 99% of them follow 1 - 11 and are therefore learning wrong.

I know I may come across sounding arrogant, but I feel very strongly on this issue. I have personally done almost all of the about mistakes with my earlier language-learning, and I have also witnessed people falling into these very same pitfalls in my ten + years of teaching others foreign languages. 

This also comes after years of studying languages in various ways, to different levels of success. I have working knowledge of the following, aside from English:

German, Dutch, Afrikaans, Latin, Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, and Wan Ghu*, though over the years I have also learnt about Croatian, Bulgarian, French, Japanese, Anglo Saxon, and Yiddish, as well as the Cyrillic and Hebrew alphabets.

*Wan Ghu is a constructed language that I hashed out over the course of a weekend whilst in a coffee shop, a month or so back. 

Edit: if anyone wants me to elaborate on the reasoning behind any of the points above, please feel free to comment.

On a different note, I also used to hang out on a bunch of polyglot forums, and over time you really start to understand the most efficient ways for learning another language.

Probably the most spot on post to learning a language.

Point 12 is well said too. Couldn’t tell you the amount of times someone has told me that kids learn languages quicker or some other excuse. Adults can learn languages a lot quicker because they already have the foundations. They fail because of the points you mentioned.

[Renmauzo | 1,200]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I've honestly seen a lot of bad "advice" in this thread, it's worrying. 

Here's a few points to consider, upon which I feel strongly:

1. University classes are generally a waste of time, the pace generally moves rather slow compared to what you can do with self-study.

2. Self-study has its own set of perils, such as falling into "bad habits" or mistakes.

3. Study abroad / immersion at a beginner's level is a waste of time, honestly. The very basics of any language can be quickly learnt at home, unless you have infinite money you should only do your stints abroad after already knowing the basics, to propel you to the next level.

4. Do not study grammar out of context, ever.

5. Do not ever get hung up on "trying to sound like a 'native' speaker", whatever that even means. 

6. Word etymology is your friend.

7. Don't get hung up about tones, either.

8. In this day and age, recognition is much more important than writing or spelling.

9. Rote memorization is definitely *not* necessary, and is actually detrimental to learning.

10. "Translating " , generally due to point 9, leads to a decrease in fluency and progress, and should also be avoided.

11. Focus on what you know, rather than what you don't know.

12. Adults can learn languages equally as effective as children can, if not better, it's just that 99% of them follow 1 - 11 and are therefore learning wrong.

I know I may come across sounding arrogant, but I feel very strongly on this issue. I have personally done almost all of the about mistakes with my earlier language-learning, and I have also witnessed people falling into these very same pitfalls in my ten + years of teaching others foreign languages. 

This also comes after years of studying languages in various ways, to different levels of success. I have working knowledge of the following, aside from English:

German, Dutch, Afrikaans, Latin, Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, and Wan Ghu*, though over the years I have also learnt about Croatian, Bulgarian, French, Japanese, Anglo Saxon, and Yiddish, as well as the Cyrillic and Hebrew alphabets.

*Wan Ghu is a constructed language that I hashed out over the course of a weekend whilst in a coffee shop, a month or so back. 

Edit: if anyone wants me to elaborate on the reasoning behind any of the points above, please feel free to comment.

On a different note, I also used to hang out on a bunch of polyglot forums, and over time you really start to understand the most efficient ways for learning another language.

My rationale is, if you're the guy doing the teaching, you're who I'd want to hear from.

Point 6 really got me to think back, and yes, word etymology has always been key for me. Understanding the history of a word really helped me to absorb it to where I would remember the context

Point 10 really resonates with me. Translating in my head was a big impediment to my fluency in French and Spanish, and once I stopped thinking in that way (and started thinking in the language I was speaking), it was like a switch flipped.

I do still feel strongly about the efficacy of the weekend community classes and how they helped me the most as the teaching was split between the building blocks of the language and practicality. I enjoyed the building block portions because it helped set me up for self study, but this is something that worked for me.

Great post FC!

[fcgamer | 4,723]

I think I'll start a new thread as I don't want to completely hijack @Shmup's thread, I'll comment more later today on all the points and my rationale behind each.

It's definitely something I've noticed from both studying and teaching languages to people of all ages and backgrounds though.

[Brickman | 3,983]

A small update as I come up to the one month mark of learning Japanese. So far so good. I've learnt 73 kanji so far, which puts me just under how much is taught in grade 1.

Some days I can study a lot of material and others only a little, but one thing I never stop doing is my kanji. I feel this is probably one of the top things to always be learning to fully grasp Japanese.

I've started reading some graded readers and can understand roughly 30-40% so far, which surprised me. I am using Anki to increase my vocabulary outside of what I learn through WaniKani which I think has helped.

I've watched 2 videos of the Now Learn Japanese series and find it is very useful for learning the basics and expressions. I'll be continuing more of that this month.

My plan for this month is to continue kanji, start speaking some basic sentences and start making some progress on Genki 1 and the lingo deer app for grammar.

 

 

[Brickman | 3,983]

Just about to hit the two month mark now. I’ve started a monthly blog so I don’t keep bumping this thread every month. It also allows me to keep better track of my progress.

I’ll be back in a year and will probably update the first post with all the resources I’m using in case others are interested.

また来年

 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

Have you ever looked at the etymology pages on wiki for the kanji? It's quite interesting. For example, 年

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/年

 

[Brickman | 3,983]

6 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Have you ever looked at the etymology pages on wiki for the kanji? It's quite interesting. For example, 年

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/年

 

I hadn’t, that was an interesting read. I might look into more when I have time. It is interesting learning the origin which can further reinforce the meaning.

[A_Feisty_Pickle | 244]

I'm a beginner as well, about 6 1/2 months in (but who is keeping track?). I would say I am learning at a fairly standard pace, although I am putting quite a bit of time into it.

During work breaks // lunch I do my Anki reviews, learn 20 new items in Wanikani, and do all my Wanikani reviews. Currently level 20. I would say some of the harder levels so far are around 7-8, and around 15. I think overall it has become easier with time as I'm getting more used to it. This takes ~2 hours per day.

Then in the evenings I do my Genki lessons // reviews (chapter 22 so almost done!), reading and listening practice. As I have progressed I have been spending more time per day reading / listening and less time with Genki, partially just because I'm able to understand input a little better now. I do roughly 30 minutes of Genki, and 1.5 hours split between reading and listening. 

For reading I've been mostly going over "Japanese Short Stories for Beginners" which is make for English speakers. It has 20 stories where for each story it has the text, the translated text, a summary in English and Japanese, a list of vocab words used in the story, and some review questions. I think it is probably a little lower of a level than I need. It's very accessible for beginners. I also have a native Japanese kids book with 100 short stories but it's a little harder, I poke around that occasionally. Also I read NHK Easy.

For listening it's mostly been simple anime and Hololive. Right now I'm watching Shirokuma Cafe which is kind of the most recommended anime for beginners I have seen. Might be a little excessive, but I watch the same episode once a day for seven days. Each day I pick up a little more that I missed previously. As I get better I assume I'll be able to drop it down to 3-5 viewings per episode and eventually (hopefully!) 1 viewing. Finally for Hololive I've been watching Okayu. She is probably the most calm and "normal" sounding member which I figured would be better for learning. I watched her Mother 3 playthrough and currently her Dragon Quest 4 playthrough. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

44 minutes ago, A_Feisty_Pickle said:

Right now I'm watching Shirokuma Cafe which is kind of the most recommended anime for beginners I have seen. Might be a little excessive, but I watch the same episode once a day for seven days. Each day I pick up a little more that I missed previously. As I get better I assume I'll be able to drop it down to 3-5 viewings per episode and eventually (hopefully!) 1 viewing. 

I'm curious, what is your goal in watching the same episode over so many times?

[A_Feisty_Pickle | 244]

16 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I'm curious, what is your goal in watching the same episode over so many times?

I've found I "hear" a lot of words I know but I don't recognize at real time speed. I can use my knowledge from previous viewings to fill in the gaps. Kind of like pieces of a puzzle. I can use context as I know what happens later in the episode and I may know some of the surrounding words of the "missing" word. 

[Hammerfestus | 3,835]

17 minutes ago, A_Feisty_Pickle said:

I've found I "hear" a lot of words I know but I don't recognize at real time speed. I can use my knowledge from previous viewings to fill in the gaps. Kind of like pieces of a puzzle. I can use context as I know what happens later in the episode and I may know some of the surrounding words of the "missing" word. 

Not Japanese speaker here but Windows media player and I’m sure others let you play video at various speeds.  I always found that helpful.  Also I always most preferred learning language audio with captions also in the foreign language.  I think it helps you catch what exactly is being said (unless, as happens, the captions are using different paraphrased lines from what’s being spoken).  Don’t bother with captions in your native language.  
 

Also, make sure you are practicing creating language.  It’s all well and good, especially as a beginner, to just want to shore up those passive listening and reading skills but I cannot overstate the importance of the active writing/speaking skills.  It’s much harder yes but you’ll be glad you did it from the start.

also, don’t gloss over any tedious and difficult grammatical stuff like learners tend to do.  Learn your word genders or whatever Japanese has.  You’ll thank yourself later.

[A_Feisty_Pickle | 244]

16 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

Not Japanese speaker here but Windows media player and I’m sure others let you play video at various speeds.  I always found that helpful.  Also I always most preferred learning language audio with captions also in the foreign language.  I think it helps you catch what exactly is being said (unless, as happens, the captions are using different paraphrased lines from what’s being spoken).  Don’t bother with captions in your native language.  
 

Also, make sure you are practicing creating language.  It’s all well and good, especially as a beginner, to just want to shore up those passive listening and reading skills but I cannot overstate the importance of the active writing/speaking skills.  It’s much harder yes but you’ll be glad you did it from the start.

also, don’t gloss over any tedious and difficult grammatical stuff like learners tend to do.  Learn your word genders or whatever Japanese has.  You’ll thank yourself later.

There's a handy website Animelon which lets you toggle English and Japanese subtitles. Usually on my last viewing of an episode I'll turn on Japanese subtitles which helps a lot, but I find if I have them on all the time I'm practicing my reading more than listening. I think there's also an option for speed. I might have to mess with this some more, but right now it just feels weird listening to it slower. 

As far as output I have heard various opinions on outputting day 1 and waiting until you have a good understanding so you're not practicing "wrong". I'm not sure what camp I am in. I am mostly neglecting it because I'm more interested in input and would like to get that up to speed faster. Eventually I would like to work on output, although I have pretty limited use of that in Arkansas.  I have been to Japan and plan on going every couple years when there isn't a pandemic, but besides that I don't have too many interests in speaking. 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

2 hours ago, Hammerfestus said:

Also I always most preferred learning language audio with captions also in the foreign language.  I think it helps you catch what exactly is being said (unless, as happens, the captions are using different paraphrased lines from what’s being spoken).  Don’t bother with captions in your native language.  

I agree, yet also strongly disagree.

If you are at an intermediate level, or are studying a language that has a written form quite similar to a language you understand, then this works out okay, i.e. because I studied German, I can watch a movie with Dutch subtitles and feel quite alright with it.

But this is totally useless for a language that is very different from your own. For example, take the character 西 , which means 'west'. If you don't know this character, you would have no idea of it's meaning, and there's not even a radical to give you a clue to its pronunciation. As far as I'm concerned, it's an f'ing TV set with a mathematical "pi" symbol coming out the top. It would be impossible to derive the word 'west' from that.

Similarly, you want to avoid translating in your head, which a lot of folks tend to do. So it's better to know that XYZ, which you are hearing, is equivalent to ZYX, which you see written in your native tongue. If someone asks me what a single word means in Chinese, sometimes I can't give them a proper translation, as I know it's meaning within the context of the language, yet generally don't "translate" between languages. This is a good thing though, as I'm exclusively thinking in the language.

2 hours ago, Hammerfestus said:

but I cannot overstate the importance of the active writing/speaking skills

IMO, nix the writing, full stop. Learn how to input it into a computer, and maybe compile some texts via computer, and leave it at that. In this day and age, how many times do folks sit down and write things by hand? And even when they do, how large is the assortment of words that they write?

Plain and simple, for most, it would be a waste of time with little to be gained. Now learning to speak, yeah that's important.

2 hours ago, Hammerfestus said:

also, don’t gloss over any tedious and difficult grammatical stuff like learners tend to do

Again I disagree strongly. Grammar is man-made, it's not natural. If you asked folks here on this very board a grammatical question, we'd all have different answers based on our ages, education, country, region, mother tongue, etc. 

Children learn languages by mimicking what they hear their parents and others say. Then, if they make grammatical errors, their parents will correct them, choosing their battles as not to discourage or overwhelm the child. Then the child adapts, naturally, by hearing the correct pattern.

For Chinese I had a book that threw are me a list of counters to pair with nouns in one unit. Maybe fifteen counters with descriptions of when to be used. It was a nightmare, even native speakers found it to be too much. But now I am using those flawlessly, without memorizing large pages of grammar rules, just via conversations and corrections. For example:

I'd like two pages of water.

Two glasses of water?

Yes, please. Two glasses of water.

Much more natural way of learning.

2 hours ago, A_Feisty_Pickle said:

As far as output I have heard various opinions on outputting day 1 and waiting until you have a good understanding so you're not practicing "wrong

Definitely start now, see the part I wrote above...

2 hours ago, A_Feisty_Pickle said:

I've found I "hear" a lot of words I know but I don't recognize at real time speed. I can use my knowledge from previous viewings to fill in the gaps. Kind of like pieces of a puzzle

I'd personally recommend you listen once or twice at most, then move on. I'd reckon the vocabulary is going to be somewhat equivalent throughout the whole series.

What you want to do is not get hung up on the details of what you didn't catch, rather focus on what you initially did catch. Switching to this approach will help you much more in daily usage.

[Hammerfestus | 3,835]

1 hour ago, fcgamer said:

I agree, yet also strongly disagree.

If you are at an intermediate level, or are studying a language that has a written form quite similar to a language you understand, then this works out okay, i.e. because I studied German, I can watch a movie with Dutch subtitles and feel quite alright with it.

But this is totally useless for a language that is very different from your own. For example, take the character 西 , which means 'west'. If you don't know this character, you would have no idea of it's meaning, and there's not even a radical to give you a clue to its pronunciation. As far as I'm concerned, it's an f'ing TV set with a mathematical "pi" symbol coming out the top. It would be impossible to derive the word 'west' from that.

Similarly, you want to avoid translating in your head, which a lot of folks tend to do. So it's better to know that XYZ, which you are hearing, is equivalent to ZYX, which you see written in your native tongue. If someone asks me what a single word means in Chinese, sometimes I can't give them a proper translation, as I know it's meaning within the context of the language, yet generally don't "translate" between languages. This is a good thing though, as I'm exclusively thinking in the language.

IMO, nix the writing, full stop. Learn how to input it into a computer, and maybe compile some texts via computer, and leave it at that. In this day and age, how many times do folks sit down and write things by hand? And even when they do, how large is the assortment of words that they write?

Plain and simple, for most, it would be a waste of time with little to be gained. Now learning to speak, yeah that's important.

Again I disagree strongly. Grammar is man-made, it's not natural. If you asked folks here on this very board a grammatical question, we'd all have different answers based on our ages, education, country, region, mother tongue, etc. 

Children learn languages by mimicking what they hear their parents and others say. Then, if they make grammatical errors, their parents will correct them, choosing their battles as not to discourage or overwhelm the child. Then the child adapts, naturally, by hearing the correct pattern.

For Chinese I had a book that threw are me a list of counters to pair with nouns in one unit. Maybe fifteen counters with descriptions of when to be used. It was a nightmare, even native speakers found it to be too much. But now I am using those flawlessly, without memorizing large pages of grammar rules, just via conversations and corrections. For example:

I'd like two pages of water.

Two glasses of water?

Yes, please. Two glasses of water.

Much more natural way of learning.

Definitely start now, see the part I wrote above...

I'd personally recommend you listen once or twice at most, then move on. I'd reckon the vocabulary is going to be somewhat equivalent throughout the whole series.

What you want to do is not get hung up on the details of what you didn't catch, rather focus on what you initially did catch. Switching to this approach will help you much more in daily usage.

Ahh yeah.  I didn’t think about the meaningless-to-us scribbles element of learning Asian languages.

 

When I said writing I didn’t necessarily mean actually writing by hand.  Prose or poetry you take your pick.  I think it is especially important to practice creating the written word.  The act of writing helps you to retain the information as well as giving you a chance to take your time and focus on proper grammar.  I obviously don’t know if the characters or anglicization is preferable but I’m a strong proponent of attempting the active skills ASAP.

Also, umm pssst.  Dutch and German aren’t the same language so I wouldn’t trust too much what you’re taking away from those movies.  Unless it’s in Achterhooks.  Then it just is my German after a Night out.

 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

9 minutes ago, Hammerfestus said:

Also, umm pssst.  Dutch and German aren’t the same language so I wouldn’t trust too much what you’re taking away from those movies.  Unless it’s in Achterhooks.  Then it just is my German after a Night out.

Perhaps my point was missed or misunderstood, so I'll try to clarify it here:

If I understand Spanish and I'm learning a foreign language (Italian, French, whatever) and I decided to watch a movie right off the bat using your method, with subtitles in the movie's language, even if I'm not at an intermediate level in that language, I'll likely be able to use cognates and similarities to understand the CC/ subtitles text to a reasonable level.

The same is true for someone who knows German (and in this day and age, most likely also English) and then watches a film in Dutch, with Dutch CC/subs.

But if you never studied from a language family before (let's say you are studying Polish, and are a new learner), subs or CC in Polish aren't going to help you at all, unless you are at an intermediate learner. But if you previously studied Czech or Croatian or something, they likely WILL aid drastically, even as a beginner.