cromag27 | 46 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 ** Liability is included in the base price for games valued below $1000. Games valued from $1000 to $2499 are gradually charged more on a sliding scale for liability. Games valued $2,500 and up are charged an additional 2% of their declared value. If we find games on an order are undervalued we may have to adjust pricing on the order for correct liability costs. i'm having a hard time getting wata to explain how i should fairly value my games (really only one i'm concerned about), to avoid any unpleasant surprises. 'megan' has been emailing me and this was one of her replies: You can use pricecharting.com or gamevaluenow.com to look up comparable sales of your game. We also recommend ha.com -Megan ok..... but my game, in its condition, isn't listed on any of those sites. and wata doesn't allow phone calls, so i'm still lost. what if they value my game at $50k and charge me 2%, which would be $1000. if someone knows how i can fairly value and obtain proof, of a nes smb3 lefty factory sealed, please let me know!! unfortunately it's not a 9.2/a+ so ha.com won't work! i'm new to all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearcat-Doug | 5,104 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 1 minute ago, cromag27 said: ** Liability is included in the base price for games valued below $1000. Games valued from $1000 to $2499 are gradually charged more on a sliding scale for liability. Games valued $2,500 and up are charged an additional 2% of their declared value. If we find games on an order are undervalued we may have to adjust pricing on the order for correct liability costs. i'm having a hard time getting wata to explain how i should fairly value my games (really only one i'm concerned about), to avoid any unpleasant surprises. 'megan' has been emailing me and this was one of her replies: You can use pricecharting.com or gamevaluenow.com to look up comparable sales of your game. We also recommend ha.com -Megan ok..... but my game, in its condition, isn't listed on any of those sites. and wata doesn't allow phone calls, so i'm still lost. what if they value my game at $50k and charge me 2%, which would be $1000. if someone knows how i can fairly value and obtain proof, of a nes smb3 lefty factory sealed, please let me know!! unfortunately it's not a 9.2/a+ so ha.com won't work! i'm new to all this. I'd probably just estimate it since it says they will adjust the value if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OptOut | 8,881 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 These guys are the real pits. Skimming just as much as they possibly can off the top. Nice little racket they got set up. 4 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromag27 | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Share Posted February 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, OptOut said: These guys are the real pits. Skimming just as much as they possibly can off the top. Nice little racket they got set up. they running the market! well them and ha. lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OptOut | 8,881 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 1 minute ago, cromag27 said: they running the market! well them and ha. lol. Yep. Just another reason I'm glad not to be interested in graded games, tbh. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YOURTURN | 1,256 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 58 minutes ago, OptOut said: Yep. Just another reason I'm glad not to be interested in graded games, tbh. Between this, their continued QC issues, and the whole "pedigree" nonsense... I don't blame you one bit. Plus I am starting to hope CAS will say they will grade my 'CIB' Wii game so I can have an excuse not to use them or VGA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefaultGen | 5,399 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 If you don't know the price, they can't know it either. The market isn't established. Just give a reasonable guess. It's going to be what, something like $20-50k regardless, so still $400-1000, you can't exactly grade it cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulag Joe | 582 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 13 hours ago, cromag27 said: ** Liability is included in the base price for games valued below $1000. Games valued from $1000 to $2499 are gradually charged more on a sliding scale for liability. Games valued $2,500 and up are charged an additional 2% of their declared value. If we find games on an order are undervalued we may have to adjust pricing on the order for correct liability costs. i'm having a hard time getting wata to explain how i should fairly value my games (really only one i'm concerned about), to avoid any unpleasant surprises. 'megan' has been emailing me and this was one of her replies: You can use pricecharting.com or gamevaluenow.com to look up comparable sales of your game. We also recommend ha.com -Megan ok..... but my game, in its condition, isn't listed on any of those sites. and wata doesn't allow phone calls, so i'm still lost. what if they value my game at $50k and charge me 2%, which would be $1000. if someone knows how i can fairly value and obtain proof, of a nes smb3 lefty factory sealed, please let me know!! unfortunately it's not a 9.2/a+ so ha.com won't work! i'm new to all this. So this happened to me. I declared the value at $2,000 for a few games and they emailed after receiving them telling me how much THEY think my games were worth and then refused to grade them unless I paid up. I asked for pop reports as there were no prices for some of my games because they've never been sold before, nor seen on ebay/ha/any auction house ever. I knew that some of my sealed games were likely the only ones in existence because I've had search notifications on every auction site for over 20 years now (on ebay) looking to see if other sealed copies are indeed out there. Of course wata told me to fist myself when I asked for the pop reports and I had to go on their word if I wanted them graded. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OptOut | 8,881 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 It's absolutely despicable, IMO. Grading should be an entirely neutral, object-oriented service. You grade the game in front of you, according to the quality, condition and completeness of that item. The value, proven or otherwise, should be NO part of the grading service, it is an entirely separate consideration to the substantive quality of the item on the grading table. This is YET ANOTHER conflict of interest for WATA, they have a DIRECT interest in making sure that games graded by them sell for as much as possible, so they can continue to press these ridiculous surcharges onto future patrons. You send an expensive game to them they WANT it to grade as high as possible so they can squeeze as much extra coin as possible. WATA are WAY too involved in the value pumping side of the business. This is so transparent, it can ONLY be the huge dollar signs leading chump after chump into their churning maw. It's basically apparent at this point, it can ONLY be the money keeping people interested in grading, it has NOTHING to do with the games. 8 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulag Joe | 582 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 The whole racket of refusing to disclose populations of the items they grade and the value these items are selling for warrants real legal action and investigation into market manipulation and potential fraud. The fraud is even more pronounced in how they label resealed games as simply "third party seal". I've seen countless auctions now of people paying thousands for games they likely think are genuinely authentic but the authenticator- Wata, doesn't delineate that in a clear way on their own packaging. If you send a card to PSA that has been trimmed, has writing on it, or altered in any way, they refuse to grade it. If you send a left bros box with a john elways QB cartridge inside it and use an at home shrink wrap machine to seal it, you get a graded "third party seal" left bros in return! It's outrageous! 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woobie | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 1 hour ago, Gulag Joe said: they label resealed games as simply "third party seal". Actually? I honestly cant say I have seen this (not saying that its not true, simply that I havent seen it) In regards to the liability I had assumed that was due to insuring the package being shipped. "FedEx, UPS, and Purolator offer similar coverage. Each domestic parcel is automatically covered for a value of up to $100 against loss or damage. As for packages with a value above $100, additional coverage is available for $2 to $5 per $100 of coverage." So its automatically covered for up to $100, and then 2% - 5% beyond that. The way I read WATAs wording then is that: 0-1000: Cost is included as a part of the grading 1000-2499: Sliding scale up to a maximum of 2% 2500+: 2% of value So the way I read it, basically once it starts to get to 2500+, since they are fully declaring value / insuring it fully, they are charged 2% (at a minimum) and are just passing that cost on to the consumer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woobie | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 That being said, I do disagree with some things WATA has done I disagree with things like the "pedigree collections" I just find it silly buzz words to draw attention / make some stuff "more valuable" I find the lack of population reports to be kinda frustrating. I can understand in a sense the "well if we release a population report with a small subset of data then the data is skewed" but by now you figure they would of had enough data and they can just update it monthly. That being said I know VGA doesnt release pop reports either, which is also frustrating. I suppose there might be confusion with people crossing stuff over (though honestly it seems more like people cross from VGA -> Wata, I dont know of any situations where someone went the other way) They are pretty bad with the "time estimates" now, I get it, they are busy but yikes...when you say "it will take 30 business days to grade your item" and it takes 2x that....well thats a bit much....5-10 extra days? Sure, stuff comes up. But wow...Shoot high (if you figure "at most" it will take you 60 business days, say 60. If I get my item back in 45? Im pretty stoked) I disagree with slabbing CIB games, just a personal take on it but ugh. Sealed I understand (you're taking an item that would never be opened, preserving that seal), but CIB? You're taking something that has already been taken out, used, is meant to continue to be used then putting it in a slab with a number attached. That pushes the "Games as an investment" angle too much for me. I dont think anyone is buying a graded CIB game and breaking it open to play it. But back on topic in response to OP, yea, you're basically going to have to "Guess" based on other solds (even though its few and far between). A 9.0 A sold on HA for 38,000 and had offers since of 72,000. Obviously without knowing what yours will grade I would just say 50K on it. It sucks having to pay that big premium but guess it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromag27 | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Share Posted February 20, 2021 10 minutes ago, Woobie said: Actually? I honestly cant say I have seen this (not saying that its not true, simply that I havent seen it) In regards to the liability I had assumed that was due to insuring the package being shipped. "FedEx, UPS, and Purolator offer similar coverage. Each domestic parcel is automatically covered for a value of up to $100 against loss or damage. As for packages with a value above $100, additional coverage is available for $2 to $5 per $100 of coverage." So its automatically covered for up to $100, and then 2% - 5% beyond that. The way I read WATAs wording then is that: 0-1000: Cost is included as a part of the grading 1000-2499: Sliding scale up to a maximum of 2% 2500+: 2% of value So the way I read it, basically once it starts to get to 2500+, since they are fully declaring value / insuring it fully, they are charged 2% (at a minimum) and are just passing that cost on to the consumer the stated value also covers their potential liability if something happens to the game while it’s in their possession. but my issue is - they have the right to increase the declared value at their discretion. which means they would then charge you more to grade your game. so if i pay them $485 to grade a game valued at $20k and they come back and claim it’s worth $85k, i then have to pay a lot more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromag27 | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Share Posted February 20, 2021 (edited) double Edited February 20, 2021 by cromag27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woobie | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 1 minute ago, cromag27 said: the stated value also covers their potential liability if something happens to the game while it’s in their possession. but my issue is - they have the right to increase the declared value at their discretion. which means they would then charge you more to grade your game. so if i pay them $485 to grade a game valued at $20k and they come back and claim it’s worth $85k, i then have to pay a lot more. True enough, I suppose the argument can be made one way or the other. - They go based on what you declare the value to be and if a claim is made against them then it is only up to the value you claimed it as (like fedex isnt going to question what you consider something to be valued at, they just say "ok we will insure it up to that value). - Alternatively its a "Cover your ass" situation, someone sends something and says "oh its worth $500" but the reality is its sold for 10k+ recently, to avoid having someone come back with "well I was wrong, it was worth way more I just didnt see those others so now I want the 10k+ for it". Though thats a bit of a stretch argument Realistically I would prefer it that they didnt go one way or the other, give the user the option to insure it or not. If they dont insure it and its damaged...well guess they should of got insurance. And they would only insure it up to the amount specified by the user. If someone doesnt want to put insurance that should be there choice I guess moreso the point I was getting to is that it seems more like they are not "pocketing" the extra they charge for the insurance, its just they force it upon people as opposed to giving them the option to opt out of it or not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulag Joe | 582 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 Just now, cromag27 said: the stated value also covers their potential liability if something happens to the game while it’s in their possession. but my issue is - they have the right to increase the declared value at their discretion. which means they would then charge you more to grade your game. so if i pay them $485 to grade a game valued at $20k and they come back and claim it’s worth $85k, i then have to pay a lot more. Exactly correct. If I say my game is worth X- that's what you insure it for. There are no sales records of many sealed games. Pulling a hypothetical number out of the ether because some person who works at Wata who knows the population of that game says "I'd pay 20k for that" is not a realistic measure because the game in question is not being sold, it's being subjected to a third party grading process. It's not being "appraised". Appraisals are different, and this is where the conflict with Wata lies because it seems they are appraising games by taking property that does not belong to them, it belongs to you- the customer, and then asking their partners what they believe the cost of the item in question is worth when that is not what the customer asked for the customer submitted that item to be graded. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woobie | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said: this is where the conflict with Wata lies because it seems they are appraising games by taking property that does not belong to them, it belongs to you- the customer, and then asking their partners what they believe the cost of the item in question is worth when that is not what the customer asked for the customer submitted that item to be graded. I would completely agree with this statement. Postal service does not question you when you state a declared value for insurance. If you say its $100? Its 100, if you say its 10k? Its 10k. They only insure it up to the value you specified 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromag27 | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Share Posted February 20, 2021 (edited) i guess this especially blows my mind because they are charging a premium for insurance and they aren’t even licensed to sell insurance!!!!! they go so far as to even get into insurance jargon: we’ll pay the lessor of the declared value or replacement value. keep in mind the actual base cost for grading a game is the same at each level. what makes the price higher is the declared value and that’s for insurance purposes. but wait.... they’re a business and all businesses should carry “general liability” insurance. so are we basically paying their inusurance premium (plus some) for them??? Edited February 20, 2021 by cromag27 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromag27 | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Share Posted February 20, 2021 17 minutes ago, Woobie said: True enough, I suppose the argument can be made one way or the other. - They go based on what you declare the value to be and if a claim is made against them then it is only up to the value you claimed it as (like fedex isnt going to question what you consider something to be valued at, they just say "ok we will insure it up to that value). - Alternatively its a "Cover your ass" situation, someone sends something and says "oh its worth $500" but the reality is its sold for 10k+ recently, to avoid having someone come back with "well I was wrong, it was worth way more I just didnt see those others so now I want the 10k+ for it". Though thats a bit of a stretch argument Realistically I would prefer it that they didnt go one way or the other, give the user the option to insure it or not. If they dont insure it and its damaged...well guess they should of got insurance. And they would only insure it up to the amount specified by the user. If someone doesnt want to put insurance that should be there choice I guess moreso the point I was getting to is that it seems more like they are not "pocketing" the extra they charge for the insurance, its just they force it upon people as opposed to giving them the option to opt out of it or not. well not “up to” the declared value. it’s either the declared value or replacement value, whichever is LESS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulag Joe | 582 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 7 minutes ago, cromag27 said: i guess this especially blows my mind because they are charging a premium for insurance and they aren’t even licensed to sell insurance!!!!! they go so far as to even get into insurance jargon: we’ll pay the lessor of the declared value or replacement value. keep in mind the actual base cost for grading a game is the same at each level. what makes the price higher is the declared value and that’s for insurance purposes. but wait.... they’re a business and all businesses should carry “general liability” insurance. so are we basically paying their inusurance premium (plus some) for them??? It's designed to charge you more. Again, they refused to grade a game I submitted because I didn't declare the value was high enough, despite no evidence of a previous sales price to back up their claim. I challenged them on this and they said they wouldn't grade it if I didn't pay what THEY said the game was worth. I didn't have a choice to haggle. They would've shipped it back ungraded...and that is my issuw- because they WILL grade and ship resealed games! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woobie | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 I took the cost they charged to mean the cost to insure the item by the shipping company. And isnt that argument the same as saying that the post office / shipping companies shouldnt charge you "a premium for insurance because they are not licensed to sell insurance" ? I just think call them out for things they should actually be held accountable for, stuff (like this) thats more grey area ? Eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromag27 | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Share Posted February 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gulag Joe said: It's designed to charge you more. Again, they refused to grade a game I submitted because I didn't declare the value was high enough, despite no evidence of a previous sales price to back up their claim. I challenged them on this and they said they wouldn't grade it if I didn't pay what THEY said the game was worth. I didn't have a choice to haggle. They would've shipped it back ungraded...and that is my issuw- because they WILL grade and ship resealed games! exactly. so did they guarantee the new “value” they gave it? nope n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulag Joe | 582 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 This bubble is going to burst when this practice begins to receive press coverage and buyer beware warnings as more buyers begin to realize what "third party grade" means and know that it's directly tied to the Wata brand. It will tarnish the value of every game graded by Wata. Maybe if they spent less time conducting a service of appraisal- which is not listed in any part of the services they provide, they wouldn't be backlogged with so many orders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromag27 | 46 Posted February 20, 2021 Author Share Posted February 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Woobie said: I took the cost they charged to mean the cost to insure the item by the shipping company. And isnt that argument the same as saying that the post office / shipping companies shouldnt charge you "a premium for insurance because they are not licensed to sell insurance" ? I just think call them out for things they should actually be held accountable for, stuff (like this) thats more grey area ? Eh. the extra premium is for return shipping insurance AND liability insurance while the games are in their possession. but the difference between wata charging a premium for insurance and a shipping company is everything we’ve been talking about - level playing field for all customers. shipping companies ask you what you have and it’s value. end of story. they will not create their own value and upcharge you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gulag Joe | 582 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, cromag27 said: exactly. so did they guarantee the new “value” they gave it? nope n Lol I can't answer that because I don't plan to sell them any time soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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