Console Debate #14 Neo*Geo

[Tanooki | 4,929]

I hope this isn't long, I'll probably get an eye roll and passed by.

Pretty sure it's known a big red is in this house, so that may give you the impression I'd slap this with a 9 or a 10, but you know what?  I give it an 8 trying to be more than fair.

Hardware wise I think it basically given its potential and size of the games allowed is worthy of a 10.  For the era it was unparalleled as a console, because it wasn't, it was arcade hardware so it's kind of a cheat.  The hardware despite the late 80s design had enough overhead and expansion capability allowed through learning, better coding, optimization of doing insane things if you look at 1990 vs 2000+ released games.  When you pop it up against the other cartridge based hardware of the time (SNES, PCE, Genesis) it basically trouned it badly in almost every way and I think we know why.

Look at the games too, shockingly good stuff, some solid variety, and a true mix of pick up and play stuff but also with some that had serious legs of the era that can last half hour, hour, maybe more just depending on the game.  They had something there, knew it too, so they included what probably was the first memory card based popular console system and put that on the arcade too.  Mind blowing, having save files, but portable ones, not just between rich kids with their AES at home but for the masses from MVS to MVS too, or between either type.  Some of the games the system has are so stunning, for years they've ended up in bundles and resold, in more recent times the ACA has been blowing them out, even dotemu got a dirty hand into bundles for the anniversary of the hardware 5 years ago, and then stand alone too with Neo Turf Masters, some Metal Slug games, Blazing Star, Samurai Shodown II and others.

So why slap it with an 8?  Easy.  Its strengths are also its most damning weaknesses.  Its arcade roots keep it from being a 9 or 10.  Those roots gave it a hell of a library for arcade hardware, but 150~ games for a console, one that lasted over a decade well that's anemic.  N64 gets crapped on for having roughly 300 in less than half the time.  And again drawing that beefy cart system parallel to N64, genre issues.  N64 lacked some genres almost completely if not entirely.  Neo Geo, same thing, but to be fair, the arcade is the reason why.  RPG lover?  Forget it.  FPS player?  Not happening.  Big meat head into yearly full priced sports reruns?  Nope.  Neo Geo had to play to the larger by far arcade cut of the market.  Platforming, Brawlers, Puzzles, 'fun' sports one offs, horizontal/vertical shooters, run and gun, racing games, and obviously fighting.  Love those?  You're set.  Want something beyond that, slim pickings, a few oddities like your Super Spy, Crossed Swords, Stakes Winner(horse racing), and a few others are about it.

That's why it's an 8.  Limited by its ties to the bigger more successful brother the MVS.  The 'console' Neo Geo got gimped by its high price, lack of variety, even larger lack of releases (had like 100~ to the 150 on MVS), and what I said up there basically. 

 

[Sumez | 2,930]

9 hours ago, CMR said:

there's no way around the expense of owning the original hardware

Yes there is, and it's called MVS. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Sumez

[Sumez | 2,930]

7 hours ago, Tanooki said:

That's why it's an 8.  Limited by its ties to the bigger more successful brother the MVS. 

When the original post includes a picture of both an AES console and an arcade Big Red, I'm assuming the platform discussion here regards the Neo Geo platform as a whole, and not just the home releases (despite the "console debate" prefix)

It's also kind of impossible to separate the two unless you're just looking at the collector aspect, which I think would be completely unfair. The Neo Geo community and market are both awful, and I would never hold that against the Neo Geo itself.

  

7 hours ago, Tanooki said:

For the era it was unparalleled as a console, because it wasn't, it was arcade hardware so it's kind of a cheat.

This is an interesting subject to bring up, because at the time we were used to arcades outshining home consoles by a long shot. That's just the nature of arcade, right? You'd go there to get stuff you could never get at home.

But I think it's worth noting that this is only a thing because at the time consoles were notorious for relying on seriously old, outdated and cheap hardware, even if they obviously wouldn't tell you that. MegaDrive sporting its famous "it's 16-bit!", despite the thing being 16-bit here was a ten year old CPU.
You might think the SNES was state of the art because of how great it looks compared to its contemporary consoles, but the truth is that just like today, Nintendo has always cheaped out on the hardware in order to make sure not taking a loss on console sales. It's just that... so did everyone else.

Compare with mainstream consoles since the PlayStation 2, where every new generation has famously sported state-of-the art hardware, or even completely new technology you wouldn't even see in gaming PCs at the time, just in order to remain competitive at release. I think the Neo Geo as it was in 1990, was much more comparable to what you normally see from any new console release today.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Sumez

[O.G. CIB | 415]

19 hours ago, Reed Rothchild said:

Quick, someone crunch the numbers

It’s less than 50% when take the entire 150+ games into consideration. Plenty of shumps, beat em ups, puzzle and sports games. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by Mr. CIB

[Jicsan | 586]

Only ever encountered Neo Geo in the arcades where I played some King of Fighters, Metal Slug, and the like.  Always enjoyed it.  I remember drooling over the ads for the home console in Game Fan magazines, but the price, oh man!  Never once have I even seen the actual home hardware let alone play it.  However, I explored it's library pretty thoroughly via MAME years ago.  You guys are right about so many fighting games... but some of them are cream of the crop;  King of Fighters, Samurai Showdown, Last Blade, Mark of the Wolves, etc.   Granted I'm a super casual when it comes to fighters, and usually only play the cpu (on easy).

So I give the Neo Geo a 7.  Maybe it does deserve higher, but it was (and still is) too expensive and too elusive and that's too bad.

[mbd39 | 2,017]

21 hours ago, MagusSmurf said:

Never played it. Kind of interested in the non-fighting game side.

I do like Metal Slug but have never been able to love it. There being no real line between "endlessly continue right where you die and beat the game effortlessly" and "start all over from the beginning upon game over" was frustrating. Perhaps I should actually dedicate time to trying to 1CC the games at some point, maybe Contra-style "learn the game in baby mode and then do it for real" but these games seem a good deal longer than Contra.

 

The console version of Metal Slug has limited continues. That's what I've always played in emulation.

 

[Sumer | 221]

9 for me.  One of the best...right after the NES and Sega Genesis.

I am also including the MVS arcade cab into this rating, and not just the AES console. I have a BIOS-modded AES now with about 10 games, but most of my memories were, of course, of the arcade cabinet.  Seeing the thing for the first time at Aladdin's Castle with four different games was a sight to behold.  I had seen and played a Playchoice 10, but everyone knew those were NES games and mostly used to preview new games to purchase for home use (in my case) or for the unfortunate kids who never got a NES (my good, best friend...his parents refused to get him one).  Lots of tokens/quarters got placed in the MVS cab to play Crossed Swords and King of the Monsters...my brother and I were hypnotized by that cabinet.

And my one super rich friend whose dad was a heart surgeon and would buy him anything...and that anything was an AES.  He had an AES as early as 1993 or so.  He suckered his dad into new games all the time through pool/billiard games. He would bet his dad he could beat him in pool and if he won, his dad would have to buy him an AES game to go along with his system.  Keep in mind, the AES carts at that point were (and are still are...it seems) $200 a pop.  After losing to his son three times and shelling out $600 for three new AES games, the dad wised up.

I was lucky that my good friend had an AES, as I got to go to his house quite a bit to play it.  Art of Fighting, though kinda crappy now, blew me away when I first played it in a LIVING ROOM setting.  My little brother begged my mom to force me to take him with me whenever I went to my friend's house.  My mom sort of asked me if I could ask my friend.  Of course, I never did ask my friend, and just came back and said, "Nope, he said he could only have me over."  I know...I was not a good brother back then.

Now, like I said, I have an AES now, but it never gets played.  I have a MVS cab in the basement 'cade and that gets the full attention.  It also helps that MVS carts are, by and large, MUCH cheaper than AES carts.  

I know I haven't really talked about the games, but just my fond memories regarding Neo Geo from that time period when it was current and new.  I guess it is not a 10 because my memories and attachments to the NES are just a wee bit stronger...and the price of the hardware and carts(I know...unfair).

One of the best...definitely on the All-Star Team of video game consoles.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Sumer

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

I love Neo Turf Masters and the Metal Slugs, and I used to have a consolized MVS, but I sold it because I never used it.  I guess my only real knock is that it is so  tied to the arcade with most games being planned for release on both AES and MVS, that you don't get any non-arcade style games at all.  I'm not talking just no RPG's, but pretty much no game at all that can't be beaten in about an hour or less.  Usually that's the style of game I like: tight challenging game play that doesn't overstay its welcome, but sometimes you just want to relax and spend an afternoon fumbling your way through an adventure game or whatever, and the Neo Geo provides none of that.  It's like certain genres are entirely absent on purpose, and that's a real shame...

[Sumez | 2,930]

Considering it's pretty much the exact opposite on every platform today, it's not that much of a shame at this point.  It's the approach I miss the most in video games.

Edited February 6, 2021 by Sumez

[Br81zad | 628]

8/10

I love my consolized 2-slot. I'm a sucker for fighting games and shooters from that era. There's some fun puzzle games for the system too, if anyone has interest in those.

[BortLicensePlate | 652]

Haven't played one myself, but I love arcadey games and I love pixel art. I think it would be right up my alley, just haven't gotten into it yet. 

[Tanooki | 4,929]

So many consolized options, just wish some would start sporting HDMI for the thing.  I know at some rate that CRT will choke or something else will fold, even if it is solidly made and I only part time use the thing to keep it longer lived.  I know to some whiners it's heresy but I'd love to put a big square LCD in there but they just don't make them affordably over 19/20" in size and I've got a 25" screen in there that's utterly back breakingly heavy.  That and I do feel if I sat it down to a TV I'd probably use it far less, loses that arcade luster not standing there (or using a stool.)

What I'm finding fascinating is that the new games coming out for it in the last few years.  Sadly most of them are charging out the nose on them which is a shame.  I get the boards cost a bit, just not $600+.  Up coming very soon though is NeoTris for around $300 which isn't awful.

I have to agree with the other comments, like I said, it lacks some genres.  These days this can be corrected yet no one is bothering.... why?  Imagine someone doing a Zelda style game, or a normal JRPG... maybe adventure kind of Metroid 3 style?  The system has a memory card after all and more than enough room to get absolutely crazy making something amazing.

[Sumez | 2,930]

I have a dream of making a Neo Geo homebrew game, but it would never happen without a team of very talented artists to actually fully utilize its powers.

[Tanooki | 4,929]

Maybe, maybe not, I guess depending on your idea of a team size.  NeoTris that's nearly completed from what I can see given they're already planning a full physical roll out doesn't look like a lot of hands were in on it, but then again it's Tetris.

 

Looks like this was a one man operation at least as far as product development went, manufacturing is another matter.

https://www.chipsonsteroids.com/

[GPX | 1,369]

I think it’s almost unfair to rate it as a console entity. The Neo Geo is basically an arcade machine transformed into a box. As such, the games are primarily focused for arcade lovers, coin savers, and twitch gamers. It was never meant for general gaming genres or games where you can play for 20 hours straight with endless cutscenes. 

As a gamer since the late 80s, I’ve always had fantasies of owning a Neo Geo arcade/console. I think a lot of gamers back then would fit the mould “when young can’t afford; when old moved onto Nintendo, PS or Xbox”. Though thanks to emulation/MAME, there are a ton of great gaming to be had on this particular console.

Lastly, despite its library being limited in numbers and variety, it makes up for being highly loaded with charm and (usually) vibrant colours. This makes it very unique with a persona of its own, unlike most consoles which often has overlapping games across multi-platforms.

[arch_8ngel | 1,597]

Solid 8 -- because if you never played one, you never saw the pinnacle of sprite-based game-graphics in the 90's.

I would never say it has the best games for any genre, in terms of depth or length of gameplay -- my praise is primarily for the technological achievement (and the very nice 4-button right-hand layout)

Edited February 7, 2021 by arch_8ngel

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

I haven't spent a lot of time with it outside of playing the arcade version. I'd certainly be open to looking into it further though.

[T-Pac | 7,513]

I've always been a huge fan of the Neo Geo, even though there's only like 3 games on the platform that interest me. There's just this mystique to it that's undeniably appealing - with the massive cartridges, overpowered hardware, and arcade sticks as the stock controllers. 

I even appreciate the high-end price range of all things Neo Geo. It may mean I'll never own a system or any games, but it adds to the feeling of significance for the "unobtainable" holy grail of stock consoles.

I got my taste of the Neo Geo when I got a Neo Geo X system back in 2015. It was great fun until it stopped working about a year later.
It did leave me with a sore-spot for Neo Geo arcade sticks, though, since I wasn't a fan of the action buttons (as far as I'm aware, the Neo Geo X controllers are considered fairly faithful to the original AES sticks).

-CasualCart

[Tanooki | 4,929]

1 hour ago, CasualCart said:

I've always been a huge fan of the Neo Geo, even though there's only like 3 games on the platform that interest me. There's just this mystique to it that's undeniably appealing - with the massive cartridges, overpowered hardware, and arcade sticks as the stock controllers. 

I even appreciate the high-end price range of all things Neo Geo. It may mean I'll never own a system or any games, but it adds to the feeling of significance for the "unobtainable" holy grail of stock consoles.

I got my taste of the Neo Geo when I got a Neo Geo X system back in 2015. It was great fun until it stopped working about a year later.
It did leave me with a sore-spot for Neo Geo arcade sticks, though, since I wasn't a fan of the action buttons (as far as I'm aware, the Neo Geo X controllers are considered fairly faithful to the original AES sticks).

-CasualCart

Got that right.  I can see the appeal even if you can count the worthy games on a hand basically.  That stuff about it being overpowered for then and for console on the whole being it's an arcade system, the huge carts and the real arcade hardware used at home too.  In the end all they did was pull a Nintendo you know?  Famicom vs NES 60vs72pins.  That's it, they re-pinned the arcade games so they couldn't use far cheaper AES titles on the arcade systems.  Obviously it didn't take long even then for smart types to buy or make a converter to get around that and I can't blame people.  AES games were like $200 or so depending on the size of the chips used, arcade stuff was many times over more.

The irony of it now the MVS stuff is the cheap, which is why so many people get consolized arcade hardware and you can get all sorts from RGB, RCA, Component, SCART, VGA even HDMI options.  There was a huge mass of various styles of 1 slot boards, I think even knockoffs that are accurate to be fine were made, so now the chinese have gone all in offering sub-200 dollar builds to work on any old TV set old or new.

I never thought I'd own one, loved arcade time being wasted on them before the pizza or burgers so I"m far more familiar with the 1990 and mid 90s stuff than the later.  It's insane how big some carts are getting into the 500Mbit size and up.  It's crazy now, one of the absolute largest games is KOF2002 and 2003 and it's like a 90MB spread of chip data which is crazy given the size of the carts.

[acromite53 | 337]

I appreciate the correct usage of the asterisk * in the title.

Whats crazy to me is that after COVID, the price of many Genesis games are starting to exceed the value of Neo Geo games. I never thought that would happen. Perhaps the barrier to entry is too high for the Neo Geo console / no widely available HD console option for the general collector to have any interest.

I love the system. Its really cool to see the evolution of its graphics, sound, ROM size throughout its 14 year life cycle. So many high quality games and series started on the Neo Geo. Fatal Fury, King of Fighters, Art of Fighting, Metal Slug, World Heroes, Baseball Stars, you know what I'll stop listing them because its pointless to keep going. 

It is amazing that the system had the amount of success that it did its in heyday considering its exorbitant price. Granted, most of its success was in Japan and the following was niche. The concept of playing an arcade title at home was unthinkable before it. It is so cool. I am just so happy that it exists and had the great run that it did! 

Edited February 9, 2021 by acromite53

[G-type | 2,476]

I was very turned off by its high end wealth symbol status. I only played it in the arcades, and I always thought they were on par or slightly worse than "real" arcade games.