PSA some asshole is doing spot on counterfeits of NWC now

[fcgamer | 4,719]

51 minutes ago, guitarzombie said:

We're talking about the person who made the NWC repro?  Thats who im referring to.  If they're in such need with such a high skill of replicating an NES-EVENT-02 board, they could easily go into business for themselves and create other NES/SNES/Genesis PCBs with mappers and sell them like infiniteneslives or any of those other places.

No, I'm just stating in general. 

I have no idea about the woman who made that cart, and I don't fancy looking into her situation. I wouldn't recommend that you do either, it might come across as stalking

[phart010 | 1,705]

9 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

is 1:1 the problem? I know some folks would have a problem with the Mario All-stars I posted, but considering its contemporary with the machine , I personally think worth a bit more, historically anyways.

We all have our preferences for okay repros / boots, and ones we don't like. The nwc really doesn't bother me, but I'm not in the market for that anyways.

trying to decide what is "okay" and what "isn't" is like trying to decide on pizza toppings with your family. Because of that and also dozens of bias against games being released in Asia , I simply stopped giving a crap about fighting a war that can never be won.

 

 

Yes, 1:1 is the problem. People don’t like to spend top dollar for something authentic only to find out they have been duped. The whole purpose of making a fake game that closely resembles the original is to deceive others.

I think the discussion here has shown that we can at least agree that we collectors don’t like 1:1 replicas of original games.

[Dr. Morbis | 2,088]

13 minutes ago, phart010 said:

I think the discussion here has shown that we can at least agree that we collectors don’t like 1:1 replicas of original games.

Yeah, it doesn't matter one iota how benevolent the intentions of the original creator are; we all know that one or more of these NWC carts are going to be used to attempt to fleece someone of their hard-earned money somewhere down the line.  It could be a year from now or it could be 10 years from now, but these now exist so it's going to happen.

If he/she had made just a single copy to keep personally, I'd be more okay with it, but to immediately throw copies up on eBay.... and now we have to track those Gray #'s frome here to eternity....  Damn

[fcgamer | 4,719]

20 minutes ago, phart010 said:

Yes, 1:1 is the problem. People don’t like to spend top dollar for something authentic only to find out they have been duped. The whole purpose of making a fake game that closely resembles the original is to deceive others.

I think the discussion here has shown that we can at least agree that we collectors don’t like 1:1 replicas of original games.

I definitely don't agree though, I much prefer my super Mario All-stars bootleg to any nes repros of famicom exclusives.

[Gloves | 11,761]

34 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Just to demonstrate something, I've posted some pictures.

A: Baby Boomer, famicom version. It's licensed by Color Dreams. Yet anyone seeing that picture would call it a bootleg (it's not).

B: Pokemon, by Sintax. It's an original game, yet everyone would call this a bootleg.

https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/6117372200_1612243402.jpg

C Rockman X by Sachen. Same situation as the Pokemon game. People would call it a bootleg, yet it's original.

 

D Three Kingdoms, Famicom. Original game, no license from Nintendo. People would call it a bootleg, though it's an original game.

E Mahjong Academy by Sachen. Again, original game, yet people would call it a bootleg.

https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/6282863200_1612243590.jpg

F Tetris by Tengen. People would likely consider this unlicensed at worst, despite the game infringing on Nintendo's property.

https://obrazki.elektroda.pl/6423545200_1612243627.jpg

G Robodemons, by Color Dreams. Original game, many would consider it unlicensed.

H Super Mario All-stars. This one's a fake, it was made in the early to mid 90s. 

This is where the situation and problems start, imo.

Why does something like Ultimate Frogger or Larry get a pass as homebrew, and even Tetris gets a pass, yet that Pokemon game I showed above is considered bootleg by most? All are exactly the same, original games with stolen IP.

Why are people okay with "repros" of games exclusive to other regions, yet the original versions are sometimes considered bootlegs?

is 1:1 the problem? I know some folks would have a problem with the Mario All-stars I posted, but considering its contemporary with the machine , I personally think worth a bit more, historically anyways.

We all have our preferences for okay repros / boots, and ones we don't like. The nwc really doesn't bother me, but I'm not in the market for that anyways.

trying to decide what is "okay" and what "isn't" is like trying to decide on pizza toppings with your family. Because of that and also dozens of bias against games being released in Asia , I simply stopped giving a crap about fighting a war that can never be won.

 

 

I won't speak for others, but I am in general not ok with stolen IP. Everything you've listed that is not entirely original falls under a general "not cool" umbrella for me personally.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Morbis said:

Yeah, it doesn't matter one iota how benevolent the intentions of the original creator are; we all know that one or more of these NWC carts are going to be used to attempt to fleece someone of their hard-earned money somewhere down the line.  It could be a year from now or it could be 10 years from now, but these now exist so it's going to happen.

If he/she had made just a single copy to keep personally, I'd be more okay with it, but to immediately throw copies up on eBay.... and now we have to track those Gray #'s frome here to eternity....  Damn

But you don't, because you can look at a pic and see it's a fake.

The truly bad stuff is fakes that are of items that never existed, i.e. what people used to and still do "repro"

That stuff really screws people up trying to document obscurities...is it a real item, or fan made? That's much more devastating to the hobby...

[Lincoln | 230]

3 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

But you don't, because you can look at a pic and see it's a fake.

The truly bad stuff is fakes that are of items that never existed, i.e. what people used to and still do "repro"

That stuff really screws people up trying to document obscurities...is it a real item, or fan made? That's much more devastating to the hobby...

I can't imagine how the collecting community has gotten along 20+ years having polar viewpoints to yours. Its a wonder we havent all gone broke blindly chasing phantom grails

[Gloves | 11,761]

And @fcgamer just a cursory look at, for instance, the Pokemon game you listed - it's a bootleg bro. 

It's by Sintax: https://bootleggames.fandom.com/wiki/Sintax#List_of_Games

Assuming it's the "Leaf Green" game (https://bootleggames.fandom.com/wiki/Pokémon_Leaf_Green_(Game_Boy_Color)) that's 100% a bootleg. They ONLY made bootlegs, as far as I can tell. They stole graphics, IP, music, basically everything from other games.

You can't really just go around like, trying to change the definition of the term, or otherwise claim that obvious bootlegs are not bootlegs.

[OptOut | 8,881]

[a_profile_name | 230]

36 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I won't speak for others, but I am in general not ok with stolen IP. Everything you've listed that is not entirely original falls under a general "not cool" umbrella for me personally.

Are you against fan fiction? And what if someone writes fan fiction and also sets up a patreon?

If we do this black / white, then we'll quickly come to the conclusion that Nintendo was right to go after youtubers posting "let's play" videos (and I think most people will agree that saga was ridiculous, even though technically it's stolen ip).

There is a lot of gray area here, and the context matters. How much was distributed? How much did the person making it profit from it? Was the drive behind it making a passion project, or was it just a lazy way to make cash?

[Gloves | 11,761]

Just now, sg17 said:

Are you against fan fiction? And what if someone writes fan fiction and also sets up a patreon?

If we do this black / white, then we'll quickly come to the conclusion that Nintendo was right to go after youtubers posting "let's play" videos (and I think most people will agree that saga was ridiculous, even though technically it's stolen ip).

There is a lot of gray area here, and the context matters. How much was distributed? How much did the person making it profit from it? Was the drive behind it making a passion project, or was it just a lazy way to make cash?

I have no opinion regarding fan fiction, though point taken. 

I'd put Let's Plays under the same umbrella as reviews, personally. 

There is gray area, yes. I'm just giving my personal opinion. And hey, my opinion can change, too. I'm pretty open to changing it in general.

At the end of the day, regarding the original topic of the thread, this NWC repro - it is illegal, and ebay states in their ToC that they are not allowed. How that turned into this ridiculous debate is beyond me lol.

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

3 hours ago, fcgamer said:

If he's not, gotta get rid of the protos, all repros, I'll modify my sale thread as well, no retrousb repros, no Timewalk, no Tengen Tetris though the others are fine, etc.

You keep mentioning Tetris......are you under the impression Nintendo owns the Tetris IP? It was made by some random guy in Russia for some old computer console and then the Russian government claimed it as theirs since it's not exactly a democracy over there. Nintendo even had a hard time figuring out where to go to procure a license for the Game Boy release but they certainly don't own it.

And if you're talking about Tengen specifically, this was heard in court and a judge, that knows a hell of a lot more about IP and licensing than us, decided it was fine for them to make and sell this game. I'm going to believe the judge.

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Found some bootlegs to report:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Larry-And-The-Long-Look-For-A-Luscious-Lover-RetroUSB-Limited-Ed-0-23-NES-RARE/233865486677

Same guy is selling a NWC repro, let's report it too:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Nintendo-World-Championship-1990-NWC-NES-CIB-25th-Anniversary-Retrozone-RetroUSB/233867363141

 

The first one isn't a reproduction, I've tried explaining this to you before. That game was never produced to begin with so it's impossible for this to be a reproduction. Kevin didn't have the licensing to use the Larry likeness when he made this game but that's not a bootleg / counterfeit / reproduction. It's unlicensed IP.

The second one you're completely right, I disagreed when Robin initially made this run of bootlegs and still believe it wasn't right for him to do that. Those are certainly bootlegs and that's why I didn't buy one.

2 hours ago, Gloves said:

  

@fcgamer with regard to reporting that repro, I literally just clicked "Login with Google" and it worked immediately. If my brackets made it sound like it was more effort than that I apologize.

Yikes. The reason Google allows you to log in with your username is because the client then gets access to your account information via the Google Services API. Once you log in, eBay can pull all of your personal and contact details, including your contacts. It's stated right in Google's Terms Of Service and is part of their marketing strategy.

Same with Facebook.

[Gloves | 11,761]

1 minute ago, Code Monkey said:

Yikes. The reason Google allows you to log in with your username is because the client then gets access to your account information via the Google Services API. Once you log in, eBay can pull all of your personal and contact details, including your contacts. It's stated right in Google's Terms Of Service and is part of their marketing strategy.

Same with Facebook.

Why yikes? I really don't care about any of these companies having that info, frankly. I'm WELL aware of Google's strategies, I've worked directly with them multiple times on large projects.

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

Just now, Gloves said:

Why yikes? I really don't care about any of these companies having that info, frankly. I'm WELL aware of Google's strategies, I've worked directly with them multiple times on large projects.

My inbox fills up with trash whenever I do anything like that. It's scary to think about just giving it away like that.

And your contact list, they don't get to decide if they want their name and phone number given to these companies but Google just hands it over.

I try to give Google and Facebook as little as possible.

[Gloves | 11,761]

16 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

My inbox fills up with trash whenever I do anything like that. It's scary to think about just giving it away like that.

And your contact list, they don't get to decide if they want their name and phone number given to these companies but Google just hands it over.

I try to give Google and Facebook as little as possible.

Honestly I've been going through my own data cleanup process for stuff like this over the years, and the frank truth is odds are that you've already given up more data than you'd be comfortable knowing. It's a pretty regular thought in my head - just how comfortable am I with:

1. Google having all the data it does about me
2. Google sharing that data
3. My lack of knowledge of the breadth of that data

And comparing with:

1. How much convenience Google et al bring to my daily routines
   1. e.g. I have multiple Google Homes, Chromecast, etc.

For YEARS I used the same 1 password for literally everything. Just cleaning up THAT mess has been insane. The amount of websites that don't even LET you change your password, delete your account, update your email, etc. is ridiculous. 

There's a level of non-caring that I have at this point in time that I simply have to have to be not constantly paranoid lol.

And beyond all that, all your precious contacts have already signed away all their own data to Google and all the services THEY use. They don't even need my help distributing their data. 

Example:

I use Google Chrome as my main browser. I decided to see if I could live without the various accoutrements associated with it and use another browser. I decided to try the new "gaming browser" from Opera. It seemed alright, it worked well enough. Had some cool features like Discord always on, Twitch at the ready any time, and further diving into the history of Opera as a company showed it was owned by a super sketchy Chinese company... Wait that last one's not so great, eh? 

I'm pretty sure that unless you're prepared to go completely rogue, use a Linux distro, set up mail through like, well God knows what - what email service would you even use? Like, you need to live on the literal fringe if you want to absolutely avoid these big tech giants. And I honestly couldn't if I wanted to - I am a web developer for an advertising agency. It's pretty out of the question for me in my line of work.

[a_profile_name | 230]

24 minutes ago, Gloves said:

At the end of the day, regarding the original topic of the thread, this NWC repro - it is illegal, and ebay states in their ToC that they are not allowed. How that turned into this ridiculous debate is beyond me lol.

Ebay states a lot of stuff in their toc which unfortunately seems to have no hold in reality

I agree with you that it's wrong to sell this on ebay. You may fool someone, or you may sell to someone who wants to scam others. I just don't agree that the creation of the item is morally wrong in itself. It might be illegal but at least for me that's irrelevant. I'm talking about whether or not it's wrong morally.

Btw, on the topic of ebay - how do you guys report items? I remember once I saw a fake n64 game. Nothing surprising because there are tons of these, but the seller didn't even mention it's fake and listed it as "used" (one popular whitewashing term for "fake" today is "brand new" as far as loose carts go). Also, he sold it for it $50 which was higher even then the price of real cart.

After I looked at the item he "sent me an offer" and I got a bit mad and tried to report it. Now, I swear to god I tried 3 different browsers (ff, chrome, chrome on phone) and none worked. This was pretty ironic to see this epic fail of ebay - you can't even report listings.

[Gloves | 11,761]

6 minutes ago, sg17 said:

Ebay states a lot of stuff in their toc which unfortunately seems to have no hold in reality

I agree with you that it's wrong to sell this on ebay. You may fool someone, or you may sell to someone who wants to scam others. I just don't agree that the creation of the item is morally wrong in itself. It might be illegal but at least for me that's irrelevant. I'm talking about whether or not it's wrong morally.

Btw, on the topic of ebay - how do you guys report items? I remember once I saw a fake n64 game. Nothing surprising because there are tons of these, but the seller didn't even mention it's fake and listed it as "used" (one popular whitewashing term for "fake" today is "brand new" as far as loose carts go). Also, he sold it for it $50 which was higher even then the price of real cart.

After I looked at the item he "sent me an offer" and I got a bit mad and tried to report it. Now, I swear to god I tried 3 different browsers (ff, chrome, chrome on phone) and none worked. This was pretty ironic to see this epic fail of ebay - you can't even report listings.

If anything I'd say it's morally wrong to sell something like this simply because you're just as likely to sell it to someone else with more nefarious intent. It's just opening a can of worms, putting these claimed "perfect" copies out into the world. As has been said though, anyone with actual NWC money is going to be looking pretty closely at the item before buying. 

As for ebay reporting, I usually just ctrl+f "report". It's just a link and not very obvious. I do so on the item page. 

Tbh I dunno. I'm kinda back and forth on this whole thing in my head. Like, I don't like that people bootleg or pirate games. I'd rather see smart minds making original things. I'd hate for someone to take something like the Sage design and do something untoward with it, I'd consider that disrespectful to both Cart as the designer, and the community as a whole. On the other hand I'm totally down for like, fan art. It's like you say, very gray. There's a line somewhere for each of us I imagine, and it's probably quite unique among us. 

[OptOut | 8,881]

13 minutes ago, Gloves said:

I'd hate for someone to take something like the Sage design and do something untoward with it, I'd consider that disrespectful to both Cart as the designer, and the community as a whole.

My bad...

[fcgamer | 4,719]

1 hour ago, Lincoln said:

I can't imagine how the collecting community has gotten along 20+ years having polar viewpoints to yours. Its a wonder we havent all gone broke blindly chasing phantom grails

Real or fake?

C&E, a company in Taiwan, originally made the game and released it on Famicom. So nothing odd over that.

But this cart itself, legit release from that company or a custom / fake? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

People that collect the plain vanilla stuff will never have this sort of problem, as they just walk the path that's been laid out for them.

Trailblazers though, we need to research and piece things together for ourselves, and that's where such items start to become a problem.

You might not care about this, but for those that collect niche and obscure things, it's very important.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

@OptOut Thank You!!! I was waiting and praying that you'd crank out one of your masterpieces.

Edit: just noticed it was reused from Inktober, but it's still much appreciated.

Edited February 2, 2021 by fcgamer

[fcgamer | 4,719]

2 hours ago, Gloves said:

I won't speak for others, but I am in general not ok with stolen IP. Everything you've listed that is not entirely original falls under a general "not cool" umbrella for me personally.

So are the nes Larry and Frogger homebrews fine in your book?

I think for Larry, the homebrewer got the original designer's blessing, but I honestly don't think he had permission from the tech giants that own the IP to do either of these.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

1 hour ago, Gloves said:

And @fcgamer just a cursory look at, for instance, the Pokemon game you listed - it's a bootleg bro. 

It's by Sintax: https://bootleggames.fandom.com/wiki/Sintax#List_of_Games

Assuming it's the "Leaf Green" game (https://bootleggames.fandom.com/wiki/Pokémon_Leaf_Green_(Game_Boy_Color)) that's 100% a bootleg. They ONLY made bootlegs, as far as I can tell. They stole graphics, IP, music, basically everything from other games.

You can't really just go around like, trying to change the definition of the term, or otherwise claim that obvious bootlegs are not bootlegs.

I'm not changing any definition. The game is programmed by scratch. All of that company's games are original. So they use IP of popular franchises? Well not only did someone do that with Frogger and Leisure Suit Larry, but with the latter entire gameplay was copied too.

So are the Larry and Frogger nes games bootlegs? That's my question.

 

[fcgamer | 4,719]

1 hour ago, Code Monkey said:

And if you're talking about Tengen specifically, this was heard in court and a judge, that knows a hell of a lot more about IP and licensing than us, decided it was fine for them to make and sell this game. I'm going to believe the judge.

The first one isn't a reproduction, I've tried explaining this to you before. That game was never produced to begin with so it's impossible for this to be a reproduction. Kevin didn't have the licensing to use the Larry likeness when he made this game but that's not a bootleg / counterfeit / reproduction. It's unlicensed IP.

I'd trust the judge too, and unless the wrong story had been circulating around for 20+ years, the judge favoured Nintendo and Tengen had to halt sales on their Tetris game.

Regarding the second part:

So the games I posted with Pokemon, Rockman, etc, would they also be unlicensed then, to you? The companies did not have permission to use that IP, but the games were programmed from scratch and are original titles, playing nothing like the original games that the IP come from.

[Sumez | 2,933]

On 2/1/2021 at 3:08 AM, guitarzombie said:

As far as I can see, repros have never decreased values of ANY games because those people were gonna be priced out anyway.

If they did, that would be the only positive side effect of it.

[Sumez | 2,933]

Also, anyone who tries to argue that a reproduction cartridge of a copyrighted and/or trademarked property like Mr. Gimmick, Devil World, SMB2J, etc. isn't a bootleg, probably shouldn't touch the subject any further... 

Like, that's a straight up bootleg in the most commonly understood definition, if that's not a bootleg, then bootlegs don't exist.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Sumez