PSA some asshole is doing spot on counterfeits of NWC now

[fcgamer | 4,718]

Wait, so a game isn't a bootleg if it uses stolen code, yet wasn't released in a certain region? 

Speechless, wow wow wow, umm yeh, sorry this is wrong in so many ways.

[fcgamer | 4,718]

Also, Nintendo never converted that game from disk to cartridge, until the all stars format...

 

[fcgamer | 4,718]

On another note , I thought the person that made these was French? If so, it's fine, nwc carts weren't in her region so it's not a bootleg

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

3 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Sure, I'm off work now, not gonna write a book while on the clock.

 

[fcgamer | 4,718]

Just now, Code Monkey said:

 

Am I on or off the clock now, that is the question.

[Lincoln | 230]

Anything that isnt copying a source item directly and without rights holder's involvement is a bootleg. So that's famicom only games in a nes cart, vs games on a cart, hacks and translations, etc. 

"Repro" is the colloquial term for bootlegs in the community, but there is nothing that is truly a repro in our hobby. anything that aims to replicate an original item (quality notwithstanding) would just be a counterfeit, since we're dealing largely with intellectual property. 

There's a lot of creative things you can do with bootlegs that make them interesting to retro gamers and collectors alike, but most people understand counterfeits are bad for collecting and serve little purpose for gaming. This nwc is squarely in counterfeit territory, even given subtle identifiers, and is unacceptable to release into the community. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Lincoln

[fcgamer | 4,718]

I think in terms of this NWC, it can be considered an unofficial reissue.

It's not 1:1, there's a market for these so people can host their own nwc competitions, etc, and it's not causing problems for the vast majority of the community. What's the problem?

Edit: Besides, this one was made for the French region, therefore it would be bootleg not counterfeit territory

Edited February 1, 2021 by fcgamer

[Ferris Bueller | 495]

I've gone over this before, I guess it was years ago, and it's the reason I call them Aftermarket Games.

[LeatherRebel5150 | 1,055]

6 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

Timewalk? Those games were never released, I don't think. They had games like Zelda: Ancient Stone Tablets and some other hacks that weren't official releases so they weren't bootlegs of anything official. Their version of Mr. Gimmick is from the NTSC prototype that was never released so that's also not a bootleg, there was no official version released. Did Timewalk actually sell bootlegs of any licensed properties?

Japanese / Taiwanese exclusives I have no clue about.

VS. game conversions aren't bootlegs, those games were only released as arcade cabinets if I understand the VS. games correctly. Seeing them on a cartridge is like a novelty more than anything, it can't be a bootleg if there was no previously official release on that medium.

What's SMB2J? Do you mean Super Mario Bros. 2? There was never any J in the title and Nintendo are the ones that converted that game to cartridge from the disc, they did the same with The Legend Of Zelda after it had been out a few years. Bunnyboy put the ROM on North American cartridges which is a different medium, does that classify as a bootleg? Same as my previous paragraph, I don't think so but I'd have to think about that.

All of these examples are vastly different from a bootleg of an identical game on the same media delivery system. This isn't putting a Nintendo World Championship cartridge onto a DVD, it's putting it onto an identical NES cartridge like the original. These really are not fair comparisons.

If you have comparable sources to support your argument I would be very interested in discussing it but probably in another thread. I think other people would like to discuss that as well but these comparisons are not the same.

Your never going to get to the bottom of the rabbit hole on this with him. I can make an attempt to sum up his position because Ive seen him argue it many times over the years. I used to take it a little personally since I used to make hacks/translations/unreleased games years ago, but it doesn't bother me much anymore.

The "problem" is he sees the existence of such a creation as driving down peoples interest in the legitimate item. At least when it comes to translations. For example if I didn't make Devil World on a NES cart then I would have to acuire the actual famicom cart in order to play it. The thing is I would never do that, because I personally hate the look of famicom carts and have no interest in collecting them. Which he says is a thing that didnt use to happen is the "good ol days" when apparently no one cared about the aesthetics and its not a valid reason to exclude something from your interest pool.  

That's at least a small part of the argument. I've given up being concerned about it a long time ago. I enjoy the ones I made and will probably have a  few to trade or give away in the future when I finally clean out some stuff.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

@fcgamer I love you, you know that, and I know you’re passionate about 60-pin the same (if not more) as I am about 72-pin. You and I are supposed to figure out a way to marry the two and unite the libraries eventually.

But you gotta be understanding of other peoples terminology and put it in front of your own sometimes, even if your own is the proper term.

I don’t go around saying NWC Gold is a legitimate release anymore despite believing it. Hell, Nintendo Power giving away Dragon Warrior 1 lends more credit to that theory!

I also don’t go around saying Stadium Events = WCTM anymore unless it’s a “joke” and I actually own one again.

 

I hate bootlegs and counterfeits of all kinds because it’s sews doubt in the history of items and makes my job as an archivist harder.

There’s an entire slew of categories for these things and because it ties up into unlicensed territory it muddies the waters for me...and because 4 tengen games tie up into licensed and various Activision games tie up into Brazil unlicensed it makes it worst.

What I’m trying to say is, I agree with you but you can attract more bees with honey than vinegar.

[Tanooki | 4,929]

9 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Which brings me back to my original post.

Aside from very few collectors, the vast majority of people only care about this stuff when it's their swimming pool that has been shat in. It's always been that way and it's apparent it hadn't changed.

With that being said, no use getting upset over it, just gotta become more informed if you want to make a purchase, as this stuff will keep happening.

That's really the center of it all, including all this nitpicking nonsense of calling you out over what you do or do not collect.  None of this would even be diverting towards you had this entire duplicate NWC not been made, and even yet them claiming having a real they could have done it 100% too which likely is very very true given what is seen.

That pariah comment, I was one of them, got anything from the eye rolls to being told to shut up along side of you and some others, some who got booted far earlier than my exit.  Typically I'd stick more to skewering those buying some numbered release bootlegs of sold copies of lost prototype games.  There was nothing legal about that, nothing more above board than any other bootleg.  YOu buy a proto off a private seller to a yahoo japan auction, unless that seller owned the code, you don't own shit, other than the board and chips.  But hey it was ok to rake up a few thousand bucks or more making copies and being a team player supporting that, or as you pointed out Timewalk, and bunny and his illegal as shit retrousb releases (vs NES, Kid Dracula, etc), or the rest of it.  I think the first legit 'bootleg' if you want to go there, but let's not, it's a reproduction would be a mix of what Capcom did with iam8bit Duck Tales to Piko and his buy outs or licensing agreements over lost/lost incomplete titles.

I get what you're trying to do, point out the hypocrisy of it all.  You're right, but then again, their comments swinging back at you, they are too.  There's enough hypocrisy around for everyone.  Enjoy.  ...and now back to my multicarts, famiclones, and flash kits.

[fcgamer | 4,718]

@Tanooki: Thanks for keeping it real. Agree on all aspects, including my own doings in the mix.

 

[Lincoln | 230]

8 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I think in terms of this NWC, it can be considered an unofficial reissue.

It's not 1:1, there's a market for these so people can host their own nwc competitions, etc, and it's not causing problems for the vast majority of the community. What's the problem?

Edit: Besides, this one was made for the French region, therefore it would be bootleg not counterfeit territory

Reissue is something done officially, as something can only be properly issued by whoever owns it. Unofficial and reissue are contradictory terms. Those mega mans, street fighter ii, and disney games from recent years as close as we get to reissues as they are all backed by licenses. Even the gold ducktales was done with capcom backing so it would fall into the same group. You can argue the if the colored shells or new artwork disqualify them as reissues but thats basically what Nintendo did with metroid back in the day.

This nwc was made in france but its attempting to be a 1:1 american cart, so its counterfeit. Where it happens to be is irrelevant. If i was doing 1:1 famicom games in correct famicom shells and printing original artwork labels form them, thats still counterfeit if I'm in america the whole time.

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

I didn't realize until now that people use their own definitions for certain words rather than what has been defined in the dictionary. Sadly I can't argue against that.

[phart010 | 1,705]

35 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I didn't realize until now that people use their own definitions for certain words rather than what has been defined in the dictionary. Sadly I can't argue against that.

These are new words. They’ll put them in the dictionary eventually 

[Tanooki | 4,929]

I don't know about new words, but words that have been muddied, bastardized.  The way I look at it dates me to the oldwarez days of the early mid 90s though.  Ever got a pirated game and had one of those FILE_ID.DIZ files in it?

I don't remember it word for word but the gist was: You may download this game legally for 24 hours for evaluation purposes.

 

Yeah, nope, still piracy.  The pirate groups did this to create a false sense of security for people who wanted to have their morality feel a bit nicer for what they knew deep down what they were doing.  80s, 90s...those copies of games that aren't original made by the original, or licensed by the original people would be called 'BOOTLEGS' or straight up pirated copies.  But somewhere in the 00s, we got to this space where we had to use comfort words, but why make one up when you can screw up another right?  Repro=reproduction, as in authorized copy of an original.  Repro (in this scene)= Ok to have, legit, because it's a reproduction right?  Nope, it's piracy, a bootleg, just a modern one using comfort language to skirt it, just like old warez groups gave you that 24 hours safety net of mental gymnastics to try out something illegally.

[T-Pac | 7,510]

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

I don't know about new words, but words that have been muddied, bastardized.  The way I look at it dates me to the oldwarez days of the early mid 90s though.  Ever got a pirated game and had one of those FILE_ID.DIZ files in it?

I don't remember it word for word but the gist was: You may download this game legally for 24 hours for evaluation purposes.

 

Yeah, nope, still piracy.  The pirate groups did this to create a false sense of security for people who wanted to have their morality feel a bit nicer for what they knew deep down what they were doing.  80s, 90s...those copies of games that aren't original made by the original, or licensed by the original people would be called 'BOOTLEGS' or straight up pirated copies.  But somewhere in the 00s, we got to this space where we had to use comfort words, but why make one up when you can screw up another right?  Repro=reproduction, as in authorized copy of an original.  Repro (in this scene)= Ok to have, legit, because it's a reproduction right?  Nope, it's piracy, a bootleg, just a modern one using comfort language to skirt it, just like old warez groups gave you that 24 hours safety net of mental gymnastics to try out something illegally.

I was referring to how he somehow thought bootleg and counterfeit were different but man, seeing Warez again is like looking through a time machine. I remember I went to a Warez site once and the website showed me a folder view of all the personal folders on my computer. After that I was more selective on what I installed.

[Gloves | 11,759]

Upon closer inspection of @CasualCart's drawing up above, I actually noticed that if you zoom in really hard, he's hidden his ACTUAL address in the image of the shipping box!

Spoiler

 

[Lincoln | 230]

46 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

I was referring to how he somehow thought bootleg and counterfeit were different but man, seeing Warez again is like looking through a time machine. I remember I went to a Warez site once and the website showed me a folder view of all the personal folders on my computer. After that I was more selective on what I installed.

That sounds like it was directed at me? If you disagree with something i said i would be interested to hear it rather than a passive dig.

[Code Monkey | 2,005]

6 minutes ago, Lincoln said:

That sounds like it was directed at me? If you disagree with something i said i would be interested to hear it rather than a passive dig.

No, fcgamer's post between yours and Ferris Bueller's on this page, he mentioned it's a bootleg but not a counterfeit. Wasn't towards you at all.

[T-Pac | 7,510]

16 minutes ago, Gloves said:

Upon closer inspection of @CasualCart's drawing up above, I actually noticed that if you zoom in really hard, he's hidden his ACTUAL address in the image of the shipping box!

  Reveal hidden contents

 

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

8 minutes ago, CasualCart said:

UwU 

[a_profile_name | 230]

It's easy to see these are fake. What I think causes all the outrage is mainly that now people see that this is possible and that if someone wants to, he can create an exact copy. But in that way, it's shooting the messenger. This would have happened eventually anyway. The scammers will create exact copies sooner or later, and it's hard to believe they getting their inspiration from some hobbyist who seemingly did this for her own fun (though I also find it hard to understand why someone would like to own this) .

[fcgamer | 4,718]

2 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

No, fcgamer's post between yours and Ferris Bueller's on this page, he mentioned it's a bootleg but not a counterfeit. Wasn't towards you at all.

If you look at my post, it's in direct relations to Lincoln's comments as follows, so I'm referring to *his* definitions, no need to try to take swings at me over it, especially when I use a emoji afterwards 

"Anything that isnt copying a source item directly and without rights holder's involvement is a bootleg. So that's famicom only games in a nes cart, vs games on a cart, hacks and translations, etc. "