PSA some asshole is doing spot on counterfeits of NWC now

[Tanooki | 4,932]

4 hours ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

I know we had a fun talk about bootlegs and fun definitions that basically 15 people or less in the world care about but

THE AUCTION IS AT €800 GUYS!

So $1000 shipped with 3 hours left and we're worried about the definition of some words 11 people use? C'mon this type of interest in a counterfeit cart is a problem with the community at large. This is t the average consumer who just wants one on their wall. These are people who spend thousands of dollars per cart bidding on this.

Can we be adults and talk about how this type of interest is only going to drive the manufacturer to presue making more counterfeit carts to get closer to the authentic carts? 

The bidding this high suggests there is a great desire for replica carts. The closer those carts are to authentic, the more these whackos are going to pay.

Shocking really it went that high already and likely more.  But then again, I guess I'll play the usual bad guy here on this.  So what if it encourages it further?  What's the largest downfall of this?  Inconveniencing interested buyers in the real deal?  That's their job to be well informed.  Perhaps the real largest issue, it spread, like a cancer as some would perceive it and damages the values across the board on loose games and up from there.  I don't have an issue with that, given how bad things have slid in the last year.  Given the atrocious increases in the last decade, they're nothing to the last year.  At this rate with that king of swing in the wind it'll bring out all types.

I've been dumped on before mentioning what you just said there at the end.  I'm supposedly in the minority or an anomaly that wants a dead pan 1:1 replica cart.  Clearly you do, I'm a whacko, not that I'd pay that, but I'd love to have outright copies of this old stuff to deflate all the garbage going on, scatter the investors elsewhere to ruin something else instead.  I just see a good outcome, if it gets so toxic you have to pay for analyzing services to determine if your 16bit Nintendo cart is circa 1995 or 2020, the people running away will be tremendous, like lemmings off a cliff diving into the next thing to exploit.  It would then leave those who truly do care, enjoy the games, the history, the exploration and fun of discovery types to enjoy their fun in peace.

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,012]

3 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

So what if it encourages it further?  What's the largest downfall of this?  Inconveniencing interested buyers in the real deal? 

Morally, fraud is wrong. The reason this item sold for the price, or even more than the total sum of it's parts, was because how close it looked to the original. NWC 1990 repros are available, widely, most notably from retroUSB which have no attempt to mimic the original. 

What this encourages is fraud. It encourages the pursuit of 1:1 repros of any high dollar item, and the closer of a replica, the more $$$ it will command. 

The largest downfall of this is people essentially being robbed at one or another. 

Again, morally if one person gets robbed it's a problem and of people are supporting and encouraging the opportunity for people to be robbed it reflects negatively on the community.

Your arguments aren't wrong but they're just the side of a dark knight. Sure if things go to shit there will still be those who benefit and I know you and I will still be here collecting but only bones it hurts just knowing people being robbed by scammers is cheered on.

[Tanooki | 4,932]

Oh I know i agree, it totally sold because it comes off as an authentic modern copy.  I get the appeal of that entirely.  And you got it, they don't want what bunnyboy did because it's a clear fraud made for fun.  The buyers here want it to be right, not just functional so no one feels bad about it other than the equally morally shitty thing of those existing too using equally stolen code at its heart.  This just takes it another step and makes the physical end mimic it, not just a dump of the code.

I know it encourages fraud, that's kind of why I said what I did.  Fraud isn't good, but it would have the up side of scaring away the devilish investors making it worse for others.  If they feel their investment is threatened, they'll short sell their stuff before they end up having the equal of an early 1900s 'run on the bank' when everyone flocks to dump stuff.

You got it though, I'm not wrong, but I am playing the dark knight role here, that's my intent entirely.  I don't want to see people being robbed either this way, or at the end of a weapon, but idealistically I don't see a damn thing which can be done at this rate to stop the bleed.  We're way beyond throwing a band-aid on it.  We're into like white hot poker to seal the artery bad.  And that NWC is one very brightly burning poker if there ever was one.  That is more complicated, no argument there.  The next step, a basic board, NROM, TKROM, whatever.  If you can copy the Nintendo art into the traces, the etchings on the chips and match their look externally, get a nice ??mm thickness laminated label, basic security screws and a plastic shell the next stop is going to be anywhere from Duck Tales to Duck Tales 2.  That WILL drive people out in masses when they can't trust the cheap one vs the expensive one.

[Brickman | 3,983]

That price is insane but I think this will actually make the real NWC even more valuable now. If I had one I’d be holding on to it.

I’d only ever buy a VGA/WATA graded one after this because it is the safest way to own a legitimate copy and you can track it.

[GPX | 1,369]

49 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Oh I know i agree, it totally sold because it comes off as an authentic modern copy.  I get the appeal of that entirely.  And you got it, they don't want what bunnyboy did because it's a clear fraud made for fun.  The buyers here want it to be right, not just functional so no one feels bad about it other than the equally morally shitty thing of those existing too using equally stolen code at its heart.  This just takes it another step and makes the physical end mimic it, not just a dump of the code.

I know it encourages fraud, that's kind of why I said what I did.  Fraud isn't good, but it would have the up side of scaring away the devilish investors making it worse for others.  If they feel their investment is threatened, they'll short sell their stuff before they end up having the equal of an early 1900s 'run on the bank' when everyone flocks to dump stuff.

You got it though, I'm not wrong, but I am playing the dark knight role here, that's my intent entirely.  I don't want to see people being robbed either this way, or at the end of a weapon, but idealistically I don't see a damn thing which can be done at this rate to stop the bleed.  We're way beyond throwing a band-aid on it.  We're into like white hot poker to seal the artery bad.  And that NWC is one very brightly burning poker if there ever was one.  That is more complicated, no argument there.  The next step, a basic board, NROM, TKROM, whatever.  If you can copy the Nintendo art into the traces, the etchings on the chips and match their look externally, get a nice ??mm thickness laminated label, basic security screws and a plastic shell the next stop is going to be anywhere from Duck Tales to Duck Tales 2.  That WILL drive people out in masses when they can't trust the cheap one vs the expensive one.

Whilst I can see your argument, it is never ever a good thing if you get exactly a 1:1 repro to the average consumer’s eyes. For starters, if they are unassuming or unknowing, then they won’t be put off from making offers. So this leads to people being ripped off by the bucketloads rather than people being put off. The ones likely to be put off, ironically are the ones who have the most passion for gaming, the ones who can distinguish the contents, the feel, the smell of an original item. 

Your hoping for “everyone” to be put off and then everything gets to low values due to non-trust of the products, but when will this time come? Might take another 20-30 years for this to completely happen. During this period, there will be plenty of headaches for all involved consumers.

One more thing, if everything becomes indistinguishable between an original and a repro, do you think it will end just that in the realms of video games? Counterfeit money, Mona Lisa, and other pricey stuff, do we really want to live in a world of 1:1 exact repros? 

[GPX | 1,369]

53 minutes ago, Shmup said:

That price is insane but I think this will actually make the real NWC even more valuable now. If I had one I’d be holding on to it.

I’d only ever buy a VGA/WATA graded one after this because it is the safest way to own a legitimate copy and you can track it.

There are 2 stages: 

1. Repros being near 1:1 - VGA/WATA will likely give collectors more peace of mind.

2. Repros being exactly 1:1 - VGA/WATA can’t even tell - we’re all screwed!

[Brickman | 3,983]

7 minutes ago, GPX said:

There are 2 stages: 

1. Repros being near 1:1 - VGA/WATA will likely give collectors more peace of mind.

2. Repros being exactly 1:1 - VGA/WATA can’t even tell - we’re all screwed!

Yeah point 2 is a big concern but I think it would be pretty hard to make a 1:1 replica.

It could definitely happen but by that point I think the hobby would probably die out because collectors would be too scared to buy older games and then the people making the replicas would find it is not worth the effort.

[Hollywoodcaddy | 72]

With some of you being pretty heavy hitters in the nes community...maybe it would be worth someone getting a hold of everyone with all of these known real games...and maybe have like an "OFFICIAL" whatever you would call it.....database/list that could be entrusted to someone...and that person would kind of be like "THAT GUY" ...the most trusted and highly respected...and whilst this database/list would be absolutely private it would also be respected enough that if you weren't purchasing from someone on this list then whatever you were purchasing would not be recognized as authentic....I dont know...I dont have all the answers...and please dont argue against what I said or ask a bunch of meaningless questions for everyone to debate about and lose focus on the problem...its just an idea for some of you to maybe discuss in private...I haven't been apart of this group long but it's quite clear a handful of you are VERY knowledgeable and well respected in the nes community and its makes sense that some of you could come up with some kind of defense against these new fakes that are bound to spread and cause harm to not only the nes community of collectors but eventually on all platforms and affect all collectors...I guess my point is...we as a whole CAN NOT let this happen...we cant just hope wata will be an answer...something on an official level has to be done I think...just getting the word out there about this new breed of fakes is not enough...one of you has to have the knowledge and that pull to do something...anything...if I can help in anyway please let me know...if you have the power to do anything please collaborate with others that have power too...we have to stop this dead in its tracks or it will eventually be the death of collecting...it will become like trading cards...it will simply fizzle out because of the saturation of fakes ...

[phart010 | 1,707]

28 minutes ago, Hollywoodcaddy said:

With some of you being pretty heavy hitters in the nes community...maybe it would be worth someone getting a hold of everyone with all of these known real games...and maybe have like an "OFFICIAL" whatever you would call it.....database/list that could be entrusted to someone...and that person would kind of be like "THAT GUY" ...the most trusted and highly respected...and whilst this database/list would be absolutely private it would also be respected enough that if you weren't purchasing from someone on this list then whatever you were purchasing would not be recognized as authentic....I dont know...I dont have all the answers...and please dont argue against what I said or ask a bunch of meaningless questions for everyone to debate about and lose focus on the problem...its just an idea for some of you to maybe discuss in private...I haven't been apart of this group long but it's quite clear a handful of you are VERY knowledgeable and well respected in the nes community and its makes sense that some of you could come up with some kind of defense against these new fakes that are bound to spread and cause harm to not only the nes community of collectors but eventually on all platforms and affect all collectors...I guess my point is...we as a whole CAN NOT let this happen...we cant just hope wata will be an answer...something on an official level has to be done I think...just getting the word out there about this new breed of fakes is not enough...one of you has to have the knowledge and that pull to do something...anything...if I can help in anyway please let me know...if you have the power to do anything please collaborate with others that have power too...we have to stop this dead in its tracks or it will eventually be the death of collecting...it will become like trading cards...it will simply fizzle out because of the saturation of fakes ...

Someone here already has a list of all the publicly known copies of authentic NWC and who holds them. The problem is that there are likely still authentic copies of NWC out there in the wild or in private collections of people who remain anonymous. Assuming there are “perfect fakes” and we only consider the ones that are on the list up until the cutoff date of when the “perfect fakes” were introduced, then we would disregarding some legitimate copies simply because they were not put on the list.

[Hollywoodcaddy | 72]

Yes...I get that...disregarding all of the others that aren't on the already known list is not what I'm saying at all...we have to use some common sense here...obviously if someone is not on the list..then it's up to us to get the word out there to those collectors and ASSURE them of there annoninomy and try to get them to, in a sense "register" with the foremost authority on their very special games...you know...explain the situation...what's happening...what it means for their most prized possession...why it would not only benefit the collecting community but also how it will benefit them to have their games "registered" with someone that has the entire nes collecting communities best interest at heart

[Tanooki | 4,932]

6 hours ago, GPX said:

Whilst I can see your argument, it is never ever a good thing if you get exactly a 1:1 repro to the average consumer’s eyes. For starters, if they are unassuming or unknowing, then they won’t be put off from making offers. So this leads to people being ripped off by the bucketloads rather than people being put off. The ones likely to be put off, ironically are the ones who have the most passion for gaming, the ones who can distinguish the contents, the feel, the smell of an original item. 

Your hoping for “everyone” to be put off and then everything gets to low values due to non-trust of the products, but when will this time come? Might take another 20-30 years for this to completely happen. During this period, there will be plenty of headaches for all involved consumers.

One more thing, if everything becomes indistinguishable between an original and a repro, do you think it will end just that in the realms of video games? Counterfeit money, Mona Lisa, and other pricey stuff, do we really want to live in a world of 1:1 exact repros? 

I'm going to answer this and your post below with stage 1 and 2.

Do I want to see people ripped off by the bucket load?  No, but I see it as a natural consequence to correct a very large problem, so I'd consider it acceptable losses on the path to breaking trust that at this point is so far gone it's probably required.  Unless of course we get to your next point of it taking 20-30years, it would never take decades, months into 2-3 years maybe tops.  It wouldn't take long for it to get to your stage 1 vs stage 2 type of comparison.  We probably are at stage 2 on that NWC if they're comment about nerfing it intentionally isn't blowing smoke and that one would be trickier to fake than a retail cart.  So yeah I'd put it at more of 2-3 months or 2-3 years tops before you'd have to pay WATA, VGA or some lesser non-grading but verification service types to qualify your games.  That alone would ruin the high ball pricing on most games, the few it wouldn't would be the ones purely worth sticking into a plastic case like people do with coins and comics now for years.  The high end collectors still come out on top, and the 99% of us plebes who just want to enjoy the gaming for what it was(is) gets the human garbage out of the equation because their margins are ruined.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

@phart010 just for a record, I don’t know if you’re mentioning me. But I do not track current owners.

The only copy worth knowing who own(Ed) it is Howard Phillips, maybe the three winners of NWC, and the NWC Gold grand prize winner. Full stop. . . I also don’t officially document which ones they are either just out of respect for the practice.

[phart010 | 1,707]

19 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

@phart010 just for a record, I don’t know if you’re mentioning me. But I do not track current owners.

The only copy worth knowing who own(Ed) it is Howard Phillips, maybe the three winners of NWC, and the NWC Gold grand prize winner. Full stop. . . I also don’t officially document which ones they are either just out of respect for the practice.

Oh, I thought you were also tracking who has which ones. I mis-spoke

@Hollywoodcaddy

Edited February 12, 2021 by phart010

[GPX | 1,369]

3 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I'm going to answer this and your post below with stage 1 and 2.

Do I want to see people ripped off by the bucket load?  No, but I see it as a natural consequence to correct a very large problem, so I'd consider it acceptable losses on the path to breaking trust that at this point is so far gone it's probably required.  Unless of course we get to your next point of it taking 20-30years, it would never take decades, months into 2-3 years maybe tops.  It wouldn't take long for it to get to your stage 1 vs stage 2 type of comparison.  We probably are at stage 2 on that NWC if they're comment about nerfing it intentionally isn't blowing smoke and that one would be trickier to fake than a retail cart.  So yeah I'd put it at more of 2-3 months or 2-3 years tops before you'd have to pay WATA, VGA or some lesser non-grading but verification service types to qualify your games.  That alone would ruin the high ball pricing on most games, the few it wouldn't would be the ones purely worth sticking into a plastic case like people do with coins and comics now for years.  The high end collectors still come out on top, and the 99% of us plebes who just want to enjoy the gaming for what it was(is) gets the human garbage out of the equation because their margins are ruined.

I honestly think you’re simplifying the issue just a tad. I can see a lot of sequelae from repro practices the more they aim for exact 1:1 replica. Possible complications I can think of from a quick brainstorm:

a). The average consumer probably won’t be able to tell the difference and will likely be ripped off in the current or foreseeable future, and might do better with their money gambling at the Casino.

b). The typical collector will waste a lot of time doing close examination of pics and doing literal detective work to solidify their ease in making purchases. A lot of time and headaches to be had!

c). The variant collectors are starting to scratch their heads on whether their purchase might be a newly-discovered variant or just a damn good reproduction!

On the flip side, if someone claims to be serious with their gaming and don’t want to pay astronomical prices, what’s really stopping them from using emulation? 

[OptOut | 8,883]

Oh boy, it's the new season!

I hear @Tanooki gots some REAL scores to settle this time around! That @GPX character is looking like he's gonna be a real hoot this season too! And watch out for that badboy @phart010 ALLLLLL the soccer moms are talking about, raowwwwwww! 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 hour ago, GPX said:

c). The variant collectors are starting to scratch their heads on whether their purchase might be a newly-discovered variant or just a damn good reproduction!

I discussed this point much earlier in the thread, only I addressed this issue as to why NO repros are good / safe, even if they are for games not officially released in an area, and it was for the reasoning that it makes it much harder for collectors to know if they've found something obscure / rare / variant or just a fan made item. Interestingly enough, I was laughed off the stage for mentioning said point.

[OptOut | 8,883]

23 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

I discussed this point much earlier in the thread, only I addressed this issue as to why NO repros are good / safe, even if they are for games not officially released in an area, and it was for the reasoning that it makes it much harder for collectors to know if they've found something obscure / rare / variant or just a fan made item. Interestingly enough, I was laughed off the stage for mentioning said point.

It's your redemption arch dude, people love it when the badguys turn good and then join up to fight against a greater evil!

Now, we all need to band together and stop that dastardly @Tanooki before all games are repros forever! 

[GPX | 1,369]

3 hours ago, OptOut said:

Oh boy, it's the new season!

I hear @Tanooki gots some REAL scores to settle this time around! That @GPX character is looking like he's gonna be a real hoot this season too! And watch out for that badboy @phart010 ALLLLLL the soccer moms are talking about, raowwwwwww! 

Somebody’s got to do the typing for you peeps’ popcorn enjoyment!

[Hollywoodcaddy | 72]

Nobody thinks my idea is doable and I'm stupid for saying it and should just shut up....✔

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

9 hours ago, Hollywoodcaddy said:

Nobody thinks my idea is doable and I'm stupid for saying it and should just shut up....✔

It’s already being done  

I keep an archive of all known NWC greys and half the NWC golds (can’t find more than 7 different carts even though there’s supposedly 13)

Every time a new one pops up I add it to my archive (and if someone spots it before me and informs me they get $100)

Everytime an old one pops up I look at my archive and compare tiny damaged spots and the glue mottling to make sure they match...if someone informs me about this cart popping up before I see it they get $10 per photo shown if it’s already a known number.

I also have a private list that I can’t confirm the numbers publicly. I can say there’s more than zero on that list and that’s it

Basically, I’ve been preparing for this day for years now.

[Hollywoodcaddy | 72]

1 hour ago, ThePhleo said:

It’s already being done  

I keep an archive of all known NWC greys and half the NWC golds (can’t find more than 7 different carts even though there’s supposedly 13)

Every time a new one pops up I add it to my archive (and if someone spots it before me and informs me they get $100)

Everytime an old one pops up I look at my archive and compare tiny damaged spots and the glue mottling to make sure they match...if someone informs me about this cart popping up before I see it they get $10 per photo shown if it’s already a known number.

I also have a private list that I can’t confirm the numbers publicly. I can say there’s more than zero on that list and that’s it

Basically, I’ve been preparing for this day for years now.

Good good...you said exactly what I was getting at in a nutshell

[Tanooki | 4,932]

@OptOutHmm...no.  I said my piece.  I don't need to go in circles.  If he thinks I'm simplifying that's fine, and maybe I am, but I think the issue really is kind of that simple as far as I'm concerned.  Why? Because (a) a normal consumer likely wants to play the game not invest.  (b) The Collector if they care that much should be made to do their due diligence, I have no pity, they feed the beast.  (c) Variant collectors, well that's a rabbit hole of likely OCD issues among maybe something else?  If they're that into it, they still fall into (b) and need to do their job.

Sure emulation is a choice, but if someone wants to use the real hardware that is their right, or perhaps an analogue(company) device or similar thing.  If they want to use an actual game, whether it's a 1:1 clone or an exorbitantly priced original due to clowning, it's their choice and that would go back to the a-b-c above.  Maybe it is casino like?  Maybe not...but that's why most places including ebay and amazon where much is trafficked are highly anti-private seller and allow returns for any halfassed reason among the legit ones.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

I could only imagine if someone bought that to swap the board into one of those perfect gold repro carts. This could get really bad.

[Bearcat-Doug | 5,104]

On 2/11/2021 at 11:43 PM, ThePhleo said:

@phart010 just for a record, I don’t know if you’re mentioning me. But I do not track current owners.

The only copy worth knowing who own(Ed) it is Howard Phillips, maybe the three winners of NWC, and the NWC Gold grand prize winner. Full stop. . . I also don’t officially document which ones they are either just out of respect for the practice.

I thought Nintendo Power just announced the gold cart winners together. I didn't know there was a grand prize winner.

[LeatherRebel5150 | 1,056]

Been a little quiet in here.  I just came across this

https://www.gameboxgods.com/

I don't know about boxes and what to look for. But the mindset of "Repros bad, original only" is a shrinking segment of people that buy classic games. A site like this wouldn't stay afloat if the average buyer cared. Regardless of what you think this hobby is moving or may already be to the same point of the classic car hobby. Numbers matching all original stuff will always carry a premium, but the average collector will have not much issue picking up this aftermarket stuff.