PSA some asshole is doing spot on counterfeits of NWC now

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,011]

When people argue details, it means they're losing the argument. The item in the OP is counterfeit. All these other examples are not apples to apples comparisons. Shows me other straight knockoff games but out to deceive someone, even an onlooker, and an argument can be built from there. 

Bootlegs doesn't automatically means counterfeit. Item in OP is counterfeit. If I put up some fake jordans and say "read description" and then say they're fake, I'll still be dinged by ebay and if I do it again I can get a perma-ban. How is the NWC in the OP different? Bc I still haven't read that explanation. 

[Khromak | 768]

2 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

If I put up some fake jordans and say "read description" and then say they're fake, I'll still be dinged by ebay and if I do it again I can get a perma-ban. How is the NWC in the OP different?

The difference is that Ebay doesn't understand or recognize video games so they're less diligent about it.

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

@fcgamer good examples you’ve been posting.

I think there’s one more category of bootleg.

“Pirate Original”

I can’t just make a game starring Mario and expect no one to call me out on it. I certainly can’t expect Nintendo not to sue me into oblivion.

Even if I make 100% of the content by hand, I’m still using the IP of another entity.

 

Me personally, I consider Sachen’s Rocman X, Gaiapolis, Super Pang, and Super Pang II “Pirate Original” games.

I also consider Mega Drive Tetris, and Tengen Tetris the same way. They didn’t have the rights to the IP and claimed it as theirs.

Theres also a very fine line between homage and piracy. Throwing a photo of Mario in a PS5 game isn’t exactly piracy, but making him a playable character is....but yet making a blue overall, red hatter, mustachio’d plumber from Brooklyn is cheeky as long as his name is Mario.

The truth is there are no hard categories.

Nintendos license to Mike Tyson expired, so does that mean MTPO is unlicensed?

What about Tecmo, and LJN ... they have a TON of licensed sports and movie titles between them. Are they unlicensed now that it expired?

What about Tetris? Nintendo doesn’t own Elorg or the Tetris company and I think that’s EA’s property now...

how about studying within the console lifespan.

Are the licensed versions of Gauntlet, PAC man, RBI Badeball, and Indiana Jones illegitimate because they were later produced illegitimately?

 

We as collectors like to have hard boundaries, but in reality there are none.

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,011]

41 minutes ago, Khromak said:

The difference is that Ebay doesn't understand or recognize video games so they're less diligent about it.

Maybe not as much but they definitely do. I know someone who got the ban hammer from selling a modded Wii and another person who got a 3 day ban for putting the work homebrew in the title of a 3DS listing. 

People just don't make enough of a stink about counterfeit games. If they did, ebay would have to care more just out of pure pissed off customers. The problem is that there is this assumption that if you say it's fake it's ok which is something that is hurting the effort to get counterfeit goods off the market place. 

[a_profile_name | 230]

One more thing to consider, is that you are all looking at it from a collector / historian viewpoint. But that represents only a small minority among old game enthusiasts. Most people who like the nes don't collect for it, and so they don't see the value in original items the same way you do.

Not an exact example, but still related:

I saw some guy in a fb retro gaming group who psted a pics of his private "pokemon display". He had cards from the WOC era, and sealed boosters. In his display, he also had boxed "copies" of the gen 1 gb games. One box was European, three boxes were American. Now you may wonder - four games? Did he have one of them double? Nope, the fourth was the well known American release of Pokemon green...

And I really scratched my head over it - why would some who spends this amount of money on cards would put a fake game on display? When I asked him he said that he doesn't care for the games, he never had a gameboy so he never played them, and he only likes the cards. He wanted them in the display cause it looked cool. I think the other boxes were legit because when I zoomed in they didn't look new. He said he paid full price for red, blue, yellow and bought green from aliexpress. Later he added g&s in plastic ds cases.... (not the hg&ss, he baught the "original" g&s in ds cases...). He said he didn't want pay 400$+ (or whatever) for the legit copies and also that he liked the ds style cases better...

Obviously, this guy saw value in owning original tcg products, but completely didn't care for original games. But this is because he is a card collector, and has no interest in games.

Now, I consider this as really bad taste. My preferences are exactly the opposite from this guy. I consider modern fakes to useless junk that should be put in the recycling bin (same for the nwc cart of course). I share the same respect and value for original items that most people here have. But still, I believe we are a minority for valuing those things. Most people simply don't care, and they'll a put an "american pokemon green" and "pokemon silver in ds case" alongside original cib copy of red, just to make the display in their living room "nicer".

They aren't even deceiving themselves - they simply saw no value in the original item to begin with.

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by sg17

[Brickman | 3,983]

I just wanted to post so I could be in this epic thread that will go down in VGS history.

*eats popcorn with OptOut*

[Reed Rothchild | 9,510]

1 hour ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

When people argue details, it means they're losing the argument.

NEVER SURRENDER

[LeatherRebel5150 | 1,055]

13 minutes ago, sg17 said:

One more thing to consider, is that you are all looking at it from a collector / historian viewpoint. But that represents only a small minority among old game enthusiasts. Most people who like the nes don't collect for it, and so they don't see the value in original items the same way you do.

Not an exact example, but still related:

I saw some guy in a fb retro gaming group who psted a pics of his private "pokemon display". He had cards from the WOC era, and sealed boosters. In his display, he also had boxed "copies" of the gen 1 gb games. One box was European, three boxes were American. Now you may wonder - four games? Did he have one of them double? Nope, the fourth was the well known American release of Pokemon green...

And I really scratched my head over it - why would some who spends this amount of money on cards would put a fake game on display? When I asked him he said that he doesn't care for the games, he never had a gameboy so he never played them, and he only likes the cards. He wanted them in the display cause it looked cool. I think the other boxes were legit because when I zoomed in they didn't look new. He said he paid full price for red, blue, yellow and bought green from aliexpress. Later he added g&s in plastic ds cases.... (not the hg&ss, he baught the "original" g&s in ds cases...). He said he didn't want pay 400$+ (or whatever) for the legit copies and also that he liked the ds style cases better...

Obviously, this guy saw value in owning original tcg products, but completely didn't care for original games. But this is because he is a card collector, and has no interest in games.

Now, I consider this as really bad taste. My preferences are exactly the opposite from this guy. I consider modern fakes to useless junk that should be put in the recycling bin (same for the nwc cart of course). I share the same respect and value for original items that most people here have. But still, I believe we are a minority for valuing those things. Most people simply don't care, and they'll a put an "american pokemon green" and "pokemon silver in ds case" alongside original cib copy of red, just to make the display in their living room "nicer".

They aren't even deceiving themselves - they simply saw no value in the original item to begin with.

 

This is the real issue that can never be overcome. There are a lot more people (look at reddit, facebook, etc) that are more concerned with how it will look than the authenticity. I've already admitted I hate the look of famicom carts and have no interest in owning them, but I have Repro's (yea I'm still gunna call them that I not playing "PC" speech in gaming) of them and have no issue with not having the real thing. The same can be said about my Firebird. I don't give to shits if the interior is original as long as it looks original.

In the example of my car, all I want is to create a small bubble of 1977 when I sit in it. As long as the stuff looks and functions the same as it did back then, than I can suspend my disbelief and lose myself in the time machine affect. The fact that the shifter knob was has a 2020 manufacturing stamp under it instead of 1977 doesn't change the feeling. My guess is most casual people picking up these games feel the same way. The label been replace? The shell is new? The PCB is new?..."Doesn't matter, it looks the same as I remember from when I was a kid and still goes into my NES."

[Lincoln | 230]

20 minutes ago, LeatherRebel5150 said:

This is the real issue that can never be overcome. There are a lot more people (look at reddit, facebook, etc) that are more concerned with how it will look than the authenticity. I've already admitted I hate the look of famicom carts and have no interest in owning them, but I have Repro's (yea I'm still gunna call them that I not playing "PC" speech in gaming) of them and have no issue with not having the real thing. The same can be said about my Firebird. I don't give to shits if the interior is original as long as it looks original.

In the example of my car, all I want is to create a small bubble of 1977 when I sit in it. As long as the stuff looks and functions the same as it did back then, than I can suspend my disbelief and lose myself in the time machine affect. The fact that the shifter knob was has a 2020 manufacturing stamp under it instead of 1977 doesn't change the feeling. My guess is most casual people picking up these games feel the same way. The label been replace? The shell is new? The PCB is new?..."Doesn't matter, it looks the same as I remember from when I was a kid and still goes into my NES."

cars are an entirely different beast. replacement parts are necessary and expected as cars get damaged and rebuilt. in some cases, like new 1st gen mustang bodies, you can get proper reproductions from original molds, but original appearance isn't generally a concern for non-cosmetics. i think it's the norm there because a non-functional car isn't much good for anything. even still, for collectors, an original survivor can be significantly more desirable and valuable than a restored example.

[a_profile_name | 230]

1 minute ago, Lincoln said:

cars are an entirely different beast. replacement parts are necessary and expected as cars get damaged and rebuilt. in some cases, like new 1st gen mustang bodies, you can get proper reproductions from original molds, but original appearance isn't generally a concern for non-cosmetics. i think it's the norm there because a non-functional car isn't much good for anything. even still, for collectors, an original survivor can be significantly more desirable and valuable than a restored example.

That's completely true. But I think most people who buy old games and systems aren't collectors. So they'll prefere, say, a re-shelled gameboy more then an original with scuffs. You'll prefere the original, I'll also prefere the original, but I tend to believe most wouldn't. The norm you're talking about is the norm in this forum and probably also in other collecting communities. But this is still only a small portion of the wider retro gaming community. It sucks that it's like this...

[GPX | 1,369]

3 hours ago, Gloves said:

Future headline:

"Gamer discovers rare official Nintendo NWC cartridge inside deceased grandfather's NES console"

The online discussion following:

"This new find brings to light that Nintendo actually did some interesting things differently across the NWC carts - note the subtle differences..."

 

This is the kind of shit that can literally happen, without an over-exaggeration.

Future seller: "selling as a baby is about to pop out, needing more space in the home and some other life headaches".

Future buyer coming onto VGS: "Guys I've just purchased a rare variant!"

fcgamer in the future: "that's a bootleg-homebrew hybrid-variant near-perfect 1:1 ratio repro-counterfeit, can't ya tell the difference?!"

[85Collector | 8]

Aside from the entertainment value, this thread is fascinating to me. From my time at NA, I had understood the "anything except a 1:1/counterfeit is okay" rule to be pretty much universally accepted for the hobby. It's interesting to see such a variety of opinions. It sounds like these debates were had back on NA as well but I must have missed them.

By the way, semi-on-subject, does anyone know if these RetroBit multi-carts are licensed/approved? I don't recall stuff like this from a few years ago, where it's walking right up to the "not a 1:1 copy of a real product" thing. https://retro-bit.com/cartridges.html

[GPX | 1,369]

3 hours ago, Khromak said:

I have to admit I haven't read every post because this has blown up, but from what I read last night and what I'm reading this afternoon I think the difference of opinions here boils down to two sides, let me know if I'm way off base here but I think this summarizes pretty cleanly:

1. These 1:1 repros aren't OK at all because, while the person selling it right now may not be trying to, they can be passed off, and harm the hobby in general, because the very fact that this exists makes collectors' lives more difficult
2. 1:1 repro isn't a problem because this seller isn't trying to defraud anyone and is being upfront about what they're selling. People should do their due diligence and there are some ways to tell the difference.

Personally, I'm in the camp of #1, but I understand where #2 is coming from. Unfortunately, if they're realistic enough they can catch some buyers and even the possibility of that happening is absolutely not OK. Even if you aren't doing that or trying to do it, you're letting this loose and once, twice, or 50x in the future, your product could be used to do that. That's not OK. You're potentially causing harm down the line.

IMHO if you're keeping it for yourself it's less harmful, but even then...you will die and your estate might unknowingly sell it as original. You might be robbed and then it's in the wild...

It's like genetic modification, you have to understand that there are ripple effects and even though you're being careful in your sale, it will echo and reverberate.

Good summary!

I like the last 2 paragraphs:

"IMHO if you're keeping it for yourself it's less harmful, but even then...you will die and your estate might unknowingly sell it as original. You might be robbed and then it's in the wild...

It's like genetic modification, you have to understand that there are ripple effects and even though you're being careful in your sale, it will echo and reverberate."

The other issue that seems to be missed, is that the closer a repro is to the real thing, the more time and effort (in the research) ALL of us have to sacrifice in order to feel "safe" with our spending. It's the time factor that is slowly degrading our enjoyment of the hobby with all the research and detective work we have to do. Like you said, there will be ripple effects, so if this thread is one near perfect example, what will the future hold for other games and with better reproductions?

[Tulpa | 3,488]

21 minutes ago, 85Collector said:

By the way, semi-on-subject, does anyone know if these RetroBit multi-carts are licensed/approved? I don't recall stuff like this from a few years ago, where it's walking right up to the "not a 1:1 copy of a real product" thing. https://retro-bit.com/cartridges.html

Yeah, those should be licensed. They probably approached whoever holds the IP and offered to market/manufacture/sell them and send them a little extra revenue with no effort on their part.

[SNESNESCUBE64 | 532]

I'm not gonna read this whole thread, this whole thing is nonsense. The dead givaway that this thing is a bootleg (or whatever you wanna call it) is that this thing is all hand soldered and the soldering looks like shit. No NWC was hand soldered as far as I am aware, they were made using a process called wave soldering. If you want me to be frank, this is not a perfect copy, there are still minor nuances such as via locations.

If someone has the money to spend on this stupid game, they should be able to do the homework required to understand whether or not it is fake. Bootlegs of this cartridge have been made for quite some time now, there is plenty of references available.

[T-Pac | 7,514]

[ThePhleo | 2,184]

5 minutes ago, CasualCart said:

And a meme was born....

Maybe a good replacement for the succulent?

[T-Pac | 7,514]

16 minutes ago, ThePhleo said:

And a meme was born....

Maybe a good replacement for the succulent?

I've always wanted to know what the succulent meant! 

(And I actually left a blank label above the door so this could intentionally be meme-ified haha)

-CasualCart

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,011]

3 hours ago, sg17 said:

But still, I believe we are a minority for valuing those things.

I would argue that the sales is legit games being such a massive portion of all retro game sales would give evidence to the contrary. 

[Sumez | 2,933]

7 hours ago, fcgamer said:

You do realise that Dendy games are highly collectible and oftentimes quite expensive, right? You also do realise that the original (collectable) Dendy games are of a high quality, perhaps even 1:1 with the legit product?

Just thought it's worth mentioning.

Maybe, but that isn't what I was talking about at all.

[fcgamer | 4,719]

13 minutes ago, Sumez said:

Maybe, but that isn't what I was talking about at all.

Yeah, but using the Dendy name in such a weird way, I honestly hadn't a clue what you were saying, no offence - I saw the typed combination of letters, but all meaning was lost.

[Sumez | 2,933]

I don't really want to touch this thread any further due to too much ego hogging its direction, but I feel like it might be worth clearing up the Tengen Tetris confusion, because a lot of people have been making baseless assumptions.

Atari/Tengen did have a license to make Tetris games, and assumed they'd be able to do so on consoles after making a deal with Pajitnov himself (who, by the way, is absolutely not a "nobody"). It was only when the release was challenged by Nintendo that it was settled in court that Atari could no longer distribute their copy, and ordered all copies to be recalled, the reasoning being that their arcade license didn't apply to consoles, and that Pajitnov didn't have the rights to make that call.

You could argue that Atari involuntarily released a bootleg, but I don't really see how you could see it as such unless they had actively continued to sell the game after the court decision. Which they didn't.

It all really comes down to legal trickery and loopholes. And for what it's worth, the guy who secured the console rights for Nintendo in 1989, went on to form The Tetris Company in 1996, and still holds 50% shares in the IP, essentially making a fortune on simply allowing other people to make shitty Tetris games alongside the occasional good one.  

[fcgamer | 4,719]

17 minutes ago, RegularGuyGamer said:

I would argue that the sales is legit games being such a massive portion of all retro game sales would give evidence to the contrary. 

Well yeah, because people generally aren't bootlegging retro games, right?

For these classic games though, not sure I agree or not. I know there's huge collecting communities across the globe only purchasing bootleg games, then there's all the repro crap that so many westerners purchase for their collections, throw in a healthy dose of homebrew games with stolen IP, casuals that just want something that looks similar to what they had as a kid, etc. It's really hard to say which market is bigger imo.

I mean, by now, I'd be very curious what the ratio of folks is playing on original hardware versus alternatives. 

[RegularGuyGamer | 2,011]

19 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

For these classic games though, not sure I agree or not. I know there's huge collecting communities across the globe only purchasing bootleg games, then there's all the repro crap that so many westerners purchase for their collections, throw in a healthy dose of homebrew games with stolen IP, casuals that just want something that looks similar to what they had as a kid, etc. It's really hard to say which market is bigger imo.

It's pretty easy though. Just look at sold listings on eBay.. I know I'm being ethnocentric but the West makes up most video game collectors and video game sales. So just look at sold listings for any genre of games per any system.

And again, I'm not talking bootleg games, or janky hacks. I'm talking counterfeit goods. Other categories are not apples to apples comparisons. There's no rabbit hole for me to go down. Either the item is purposely made to be an exact replica, or it is not.

It actually reminds me a lot of Fair Use. In fact, much of the items you bring into play may even fall into the category of Fair Use policy. One of the 4 main parts of Fair Use is that the item created cannot be confused with the original work.

So if the original work is a Gameboy game, or a PC game, then a port to the Famicom by a fan may constitute as Fair Use. HOWEVER, the NWC in the OP clearly violates copy right laws and CANNOT apply Fair Use given its sole purpose is to look and play like the authentic carts.

This violating copy right laws and categorized as a counterfeit item.

Edited February 2, 2021 by RegularGuyGamer

[fcgamer | 4,719]

Anyone else remember that guy on NA that wanted "repros" of Camerica/Codemasters games for aesthetic purposes alone? Lol.