Masks in public/at the park

[Boosted52405 | 178]

9 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Not likely. She was the "offending" party of the two, and her actions show that she had no shred of concern about respecting anyone else's feelings.

You don't know if you don't try.  Everyone has different opinions on the use of masks, especially when they aren't legally required on kids in public.  You can't expect that everyone views life the same as you.  When interacting with a stranger, start friendly before going to 100 - demanding something from someone is extremely different than asking them to do something out of respect.

[Boosted52405 | 178]

@fcgameralso, I think an argument you're webbing together is my feedback of 1) parents acting in unity in a park, and 2) strangers talking to your kids - these are 2 very distinct things.  The unity piece is the allowance of strangers kids to run around together, however, it is not common or expected that other parents talk or even interact all at all with your kid, if that makes sense.  Purely supervision on the unity front, again pre-pandemic days.  Of course, if a lil kiddo biffs it and needs help or something, I can see strangers jumping up to help.  Perhaps that helps a bit on that point you're blending together as twofold.

[JamesRobot | 5,800]

4 hours ago, Boosted52405 said:

For any parent involved in this discussion...how would/do you feel when a stranger talks to your toddler, let alone tells them what to do?  It puts them instantly on the defensive, if not a protective/offensive state of mind. 

I am of the mind, that if another adult needs to tell my kid what to do, the kid was probably being a nuisance.  It def happens from time to time.  My reaction is to apologize to the adult and ask the boy why he was being talked to.  It's usually something stupid and he didn't realize he was being annoying.  Kids live to test boundaries, especially if they feel they are distanced from their parents influence.  

I actually feel more comfortable in those situations than if a rando just strikes up a conversation with a little kid.  That's where one really needs to be on point.  It's usually just an elderly person who loves kids.  But the creep factor is def turned up.  As long as they are polite and keep their distance I'll allow it with keen attention. 

[JamesRobot | 5,800]

4 hours ago, SuperJimtendo said:

Your body your rules. No means no. 

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

12 hours ago, fcgamer said:

No, I wouldn't.

As the owner, the responsibility is on me to control my pet / child / whatever. She didn't control hers, then got defensive likely *to save face*, therefore she's in the wrong.

You need to follow the conversation here if you're going to join a debate, you keep switching. You argued at first that you would not have to make sure your cat was friendly with dogs if you brought it to the park. I then argued that you would certainly have to be responsible for your pet playing nicely with other pets at the park if you bring it there.

You then said no, I'm wrong and argued that you are responsible only for your pet. Dude........that's exactly what I said. You are responsible for your own pet to make sure it plays nicely with other pets. You're confirming I was correct.

 

12 hours ago, fcgamer said:

Another point some people keep making is about the park being public, and how there isn't a legal rule of first come, first serve. Here's my thoughts on the issue, as a decent human being.

Two things come into play, #1, what I'll refer to as the "disturbance" or "offending behaviour", and #2, what I'll refer to as who was there first. Let's examine first some common "disturbances"

-smoking

-reeking of alcohol

-playing loud music

-making out to a point you should get a room

-cursing

Etc

These are behaviours that while not necessarily illegal, can be a bit disrespectful. So:

If I reek of alcohol and am sitting on a park bench, then I crack open another beer and pound it , that is my business if I'm not causing any problems and am keeping to myself. If a mom then comes over with her kids, sits next to me, and chastises me, imo she's in the wrong as she came second, and she could have sat somewhere else.

However, if she was with her kids, then I rolled up and sat down next to them, reeking of beer, and cracked open another, I'm in the wrong as I am committing the "offending" behaviour and I wasn't there first.

Imo it's about being a decent, considerate human being, despite what any actual law says.

During a pandemic, not wearing a mask would be considered the "offending" behaviour of the two options. They came second, they're again in the wrong.

I think you're mixing morally with legally here, they're not the same thing. Morally everything you said is correct, people SHOULD respect someone that was there first and not stinking like alcohol or some other substance. However, nobody here is arguing morals, we're arguing if the other parent and child had the legal right to be in that space and the answer is yes. In your example, if I show up stinking of alcohol and sit down on a bench right next to you, I have every legal right in the world to do so and you can't say anything to me about it. Morally you're correct but legally you couldn't be more wrong.

 

12 hours ago, fcgamer said:

I just explained to 4 year olds today about sound waves, vibrations, and pitch, in a foreign language to them. 

A few weeks back we learnt about motion and physics, and the whole germs / mask / covid thing was taught almost a year ago.

If the kids aren't understanding, you probably just aren't explaining it in a way that's digestible to them.

 

Kids listening and nodding about sound waves is not the same as telling a kid they can play but must stay 6 feet apart, their brains don't have that logical ability. They're going to process the information of what they want to do, then execute doing it. They're not going to consider they need to run a checklist of rules prior to executing any action, the 4 year old mind doesn't work that way. I'm willing to set up a poll for every parent here and ask them if they think their 4 year old child, in a public park, would have the ability to play with another kid without (not once single time) being less than 6 feet away from that other kid. Some kids yes, most no.

 

9 hours ago, FenrirZero said:

Sorry to say this @JamesRobot but she was not showing the signs of being a "Karen".

As Wikipedia states...

"Kansas State University professor Heather Suzanne Woods, whose research interests include memes, said a Karen's defining characteristics are "entitlement, selfishness, a desire to complain", and that a Karen "demands the world exist according to her standards with little regard for others, and she is willing to risk or demean others to achieve her ends."

It's a little sexist, per say, since men can also be "Karens" too.

With that said, the only reason I am not fully condoning you is because your behavior are based on what it means to experience severe anxiety. And if you knew my variation of Asperger's, you would know that mine has made me become angry over things that did not require it. So when it comes to this pandemic, even that innocent 4-year-old can be seen as a walking contagion. Something that germaphobes see when it comes to cold/flu season.

In this case you are a parent first. This means that you should have made it clear that everything tied to the pandemic has you on edge. That no matter what current facts claim, you feel safer knowing that your kids are playing with those who also wear mask. Because it's your job to protect your kids while you are still alive. And if this offends her in any way, be the better person by apologizing and leave towards another part of the park.

Because it is also your job to show your kids what is the correct way to act in situations like this one. Just like it is hers to do just that with her kid.

I will let that slide because this pandemic has taken a lot out of you. And I can only bet that you would have let that kid be a kid if the worse we were facing was the common cold. Where as the worse I faced has its own list. With the emotional end of that list being the reason why I am forcing myself to do a "Asperger's Therapy" kind of thing this year.

With that said... You both are parents. She should have respected your feelings, and you should have been more restrained with yours. And I can only hope that if you both meet again this can be resolved. 

So is the woman's name Karen or is Karen used as something else now? It's the first I've heard of this.

[YOURTURN | 1,256]

36 minutes ago, Code Monkey said:

So is the woman's name Karen or is Karen used as something else now? It's the first I've heard of this.

Some think it's a name chosen after the "Can I speak to the manager?" haircut meme needed a name.  Others think that the name was chosen from Mean Girls. Either way, the term is mostly used for those who are more extreme than this mother. [Source: https://www.insider.com/karen-meme-origin-the-history-of-calling-women-karen-white-2020-5]

When it comes to the Mother in this event, what she did would also make me be a "Karen" in the end. Long story short, it is tied to the "therapy" I am doing (which is video game collecting related). And the actual Karens I have dealt with online have helped me understand what she was hoping to gain that day (i.e. a moment of normalcy).

[fcgamer | 4,723]

2 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

You need to follow the conversation here if you're going to join a debate, you keep switching. You argued at first that you would not have to make sure your cat was friendly with dogs if you brought it to the park. I then argued that you would certainly have to be responsible for your pet playing nicely with other pets at the park if you bring it there.

You then said no, I'm wrong and argued that you are responsible only for your pet. Dude........that's exactly what I said. You are responsible for your own pet to make sure it plays nicely with other pets. You're confirming I was correct.

 

I think you're mixing morally with legally here, they're not the same thing. Morally everything you said is correct, people SHOULD respect someone that was there first and not stinking like alcohol or some other substance. However, nobody here is arguing morals, we're arguing if the other parent and child had the legal right to be in that space and the answer is yes. In your example, if I show up stinking of alcohol and sit down on a bench right next to you, I have every legal right in the world to do so and you can't say anything to me about it. Morally you're correct but legally you couldn't be more wrong.

 

Kids listening and nodding about sound waves is not the same as telling a kid they can play but must stay 6 feet apart, their brains don't have that logical ability. They're going to process the information of what they want to do, then execute doing it. They're not going to consider they need to run a checklist of rules prior to executing any action, the 4 year old mind doesn't work that way. I'm willing to set up a poll for every parent here and ask them if they think their 4 year old child, in a public park, would have the ability to play with another kid without (not once single time) being less than 6 feet away from that other kid. Some kids yes, most no.

 

So is the woman's name Karen or is Karen used as something else now? It's the first I've heard of this.

We already discussed the morally versus legally thing five pages back, and agreed more or less that we would stick with morally for the argument. You need to go back and re-read from the start.

No one is arguing the legality of whether the kid and mom can be there, that's just silly.

Edited January 5, 2021 by fcgamer

[fcgamer | 4,723]

5 hours ago, Boosted52405 said:

The kid in question did not come up and talk to strangers, he went within a few feet of the OP and his kid - here is the exact text from the OP "her kid comes within a couple feet looking like he wants to play."  This is 100% normal behavior at a park for a 4yo.  Again, to explain this I really feel you haven't been to a busy park with kids.  As long as the Mom was supervising her kid in this situation, I still feel the only thing she did wrong was send him in unmasked.  You seem to feel she was negligent for letting her kid get close to anther kid/family on a playground, I fully disagree.

The park wasn't busy though! So it's quite obvious the kid made a beeline straight for the stranger when he got in the empty park, and even ends up talking with a strange man, all the while the mom just sits and does nothing. I feel that's a bit negligent.

[Code Monkey | 2,006]

2 hours ago, fcgamer said:

The park wasn't busy though! So it's quite obvious the kid made a beeline straight for the stranger when he got in the empty park, and even ends up talking with a strange man, all the while the mom just sits and does nothing. I feel that's a bit negligent.

What's the alternative? The mother can stand behind her child and yell things like, "Don't eat that!" or "Don't touch that!" or "Don't talk to him," "Don't do that!"

Or she can get a few minutes to herself while her kid plays. It isn't negligent to let your kid go play by himself where you can see him.

[JamesRobot | 5,800]

Nothing wrong with letting your kid just go for it at the park.  I wouldn't call the mom negligent.  It's pretty common practice to just sit on the sidelines on watch the kids run ragged.  Of course, as a parent, it's still your job to keep an eye out.  I was not offended in any way that the kid came up to me.  I'd say it was even expected as we were the only other family in the park.  Pretty typical interaction really.

[fcgamer | 4,723]

2 hours ago, Code Monkey said:

What's the alternative? The mother can stand behind her child and yell things like, "Don't eat that!" or "Don't touch that!" or "Don't talk to him," "Don't do that!"

Or she can get a few minutes to herself while her kid plays. It isn't negligent to let your kid go play by himself where you can see him.

It all depends what the mom was doing though. If she's just watching him, that's fine, but if she's playing on her phone or sleeping or something, I think that's a bit negligent. All depends if she's watching or not, and we don't know from the information given.

 

[darkchylde28 | 1,546]

On 1/4/2021 at 11:41 PM, Boosted52405 said:

@darkchylde28Well we can certainly agree to disagree, but to ask, do you have kids?  Your comment about how the families should all play at the park and keep their distance tells me maybe not...park playgrounds are like a candy land for kids.  If there are 2-3-4 families at a single park, good luck keeping them all 6ft from one another!  It would be a mission impossible level adventure with all the parents in perfect coordination - just not feasible.

The link you provided is kind of a joke, can you provide an actual example of a single enforcement penalty?  There is little to no chance a cop or anyone is going to take action over 4 year olds on a public playground.  It is up to the parents to abide by the public health orders.  According to the OP, he was cool with the kids mingling if they had masks - isn't that breaking the rules too?

You say the Mom flew off the handle...when, when she said the kid was 4?  I don't get that at all from the first post.  You say she was the instigator, I really don't see that, I guess except when she showed up?

I guess my take on this is that the OP should have simply talked with the Mom and requested that she keep her kid away from his kid, for obvious reasons.  If she's unwilling to respect and honor that, then leave.  Nothing else you can do.  It doesn't sound like he attempted to work with her at all based on the OP.  It's neutral territory at a park playground and the kid does not have to wear a mask (but totally should).  It sounds like he came off hostile from the get go, but again, we were barely provided any information about "triggered Karen".

Yes, two, and to address some posts that you made later, I've had a 4 year old and am on my way to having a second and didn't have any issues explaining things to my son when he was 4.  You seem to be missing all of the attitude implied by how @JamesRobot phrased what she spoke to him.  "Then Karen pipes up indignantly," "Karen, defiantly," "Karen, 'Well I'm a nurse ...'"  All these speak to her being aggressive in her speech to him, immediately upon her kid coming back to tell her that he can't play near OP's kids without a mask.

As a parent, and knowing my son, I keep an eye out on what he's doing at the park/playground/etc. and will actively call him down the moment I see him doing something he shouldn't be.  Fortunately, he's always been generally good whenever we were in a public setting like that, but not always, and sometimes, when he didn't immediately listen, I'd have to go extract him from the fun and let him sit down for a couple of minutes in time out for not listening.

Knowing what I do about the social distancing guidelines, I'd have been watching my kids like a hawk, especially when I saw another family nearby, and would have immediately called either kid down for going too near other folks.  The mom in this clearly didn't.  If she couldn't control her kid, she shouldn't take him out in public--pure and simple.  In the few instances where one or the other of my kids has had a meltdown in or going into public places, they either got removed immediately or we didn't go.  There's zero reason to subject other people, parents or not, to my kids' bad behavior, and I expect the same of other parents (whether it always happens that way or not) .

So...the official legal mandates from the state of Colorado are a joke?  Why, exactly?  How are these legally binding rules any more humorous than the ones telling us other inconvenient things, like don't steal from people, or don't shoot the people who make you mad?  Since it seems you didn't read through the link very thoroughly, if at all, here are some excerpts:

How will this order be enforced?  Colorado law requires compliance with executive and public health orders; therefore, not following these orders is breaking the law.  (Emphasis mine)

How can local law enforcement or local public health agencies enforce public health orders?  Under Colorado law, counties and local public health agencies have the authority to administer and enforce an order. The state is recommending that local law enforcement and/or local public health agencies first reach out to the entity to seek voluntary compliance. However, local county attorneys or district attorneys can bring any civil or criminal action requested by the local public health director for a local violation of an order. A county attorney representing a local public health agency can seek a judge’s order in state court to force an individual or business to immediately comply with an order.

That sounds fairly serious to me and definitely worth obeying seeing as specific penalties haven't been provided, but the wording implies that the local public health director has carte blanche to lay down whatever civil or criminal penalty they see fit for violation of the order.

As far as OP working with the mom, what was there to work with her on?  He told the kid he couldn't play near his kids without a mask, then repeated the same to the mom when she asked about it, clearly irritated.  She then kept yelling back at him in an angry tone and toward the end tried to play the BS "but I'm a nurse" card, which is either nonsense or she ought to be let go from her position for being terrible at it (from a safety viewpoint), as public health workers, especially in Colorado, should have seen plenty of what this virus can and has done to people.  She started with an angry tone and kept it up while OP started out calm and only escalated in his reactions as she did.  I stand by my statement that she instigated and in whatever poor taste OP's dual finger salute may have been, I can understand how he got there with circumstances (both world-/state-wide as well as in his immediate vicinity) being what they were.

[Boosted52405 | 178]

9 hours ago, darkchylde28 said:

Yes, two, and to address some posts that you made later, I've had a 4 year old and am on my way to having a second and didn't have any issues explaining things to my son when he was 4.  You seem to be missing all of the attitude implied by how @JamesRobot phrased what she spoke to him.  "Then Karen pipes up indignantly," "Karen, defiantly," "Karen, 'Well I'm a nurse ...'"  All these speak to her being aggressive in her speech to him, immediately upon her kid coming back to tell her that he can't play near OP's kids without a mask.

As a parent, and knowing my son, I keep an eye out on what he's doing at the park/playground/etc. and will actively call him down the moment I see him doing something he shouldn't be.  Fortunately, he's always been generally good whenever we were in a public setting like that, but not always, and sometimes, when he didn't immediately listen, I'd have to go extract him from the fun and let him sit down for a couple of minutes in time out for not listening.

Knowing what I do about the social distancing guidelines, I'd have been watching my kids like a hawk, especially when I saw another family nearby, and would have immediately called either kid down for going too near other folks.  The mom in this clearly didn't.  If she couldn't control her kid, she shouldn't take him out in public--pure and simple.  In the few instances where one or the other of my kids has had a meltdown in or going into public places, they either got removed immediately or we didn't go.  There's zero reason to subject other people, parents or not, to my kids' bad behavior, and I expect the same of other parents (whether it always happens that way or not) .

So...the official legal mandates from the state of Colorado are a joke?  Why, exactly?  How are these legally binding rules any more humorous than the ones telling us other inconvenient things, like don't steal from people, or don't shoot the people who make you mad?  Since it seems you didn't read through the link very thoroughly, if at all, here are some excerpts:

How will this order be enforced?  Colorado law requires compliance with executive and public health orders; therefore, not following these orders is breaking the law.  (Emphasis mine)

How can local law enforcement or local public health agencies enforce public health orders?  Under Colorado law, counties and local public health agencies have the authority to administer and enforce an order. The state is recommending that local law enforcement and/or local public health agencies first reach out to the entity to seek voluntary compliance. However, local county attorneys or district attorneys can bring any civil or criminal action requested by the local public health director for a local violation of an order. A county attorney representing a local public health agency can seek a judge’s order in state court to force an individual or business to immediately comply with an order.

That sounds fairly serious to me and definitely worth obeying seeing as specific penalties haven't been provided, but the wording implies that the local public health director has carte blanche to lay down whatever civil or criminal penalty they see fit for violation of the order.

As far as OP working with the mom, what was there to work with her on?  He told the kid he couldn't play near his kids without a mask, then repeated the same to the mom when she asked about it, clearly irritated.  She then kept yelling back at him in an angry tone and toward the end tried to play the BS "but I'm a nurse" card, which is either nonsense or she ought to be let go from her position for being terrible at it (from a safety viewpoint), as public health workers, especially in Colorado, should have seen plenty of what this virus can and has done to people.  She started with an angry tone and kept it up while OP started out calm and only escalated in his reactions as she did.  I stand by my statement that she instigated and in whatever poor taste OP's dual finger salute may have been, I can understand how he got there with circumstances (both world-/state-wide as well as in his immediate vicinity) being what they were.

Holy wall of text.  I'll keep it simple man, just because you would control your child in a particular way does not mean you can EXPECT another stranger to control their kid the same way.  Control what you can control, hence my feelings that if the OP was uncomfortable he had the liberty to get up and leave.  You'll continue to be disappointed in life if you expect people in life to behave like you - again, this is a public shared setting, this kind of stuff will happen frequently. 

The kid did not have to wear a mask, per the law.  The whole forum agrees with how the Mom should have behaved (mask & distance), but it doesn't justify the resulting behavior of the OP.  As for what the Mom said, we weren't provided any actual detail, yet the OP even agrees he went 0-100 in a matter of seconds.  What's wrong with being the bigger person and leaving, I ask?

As for your link that I said was a joke, absolutely it is - it's a State policy that is far more of a PR move than actuality.  Again, can you show me a single instance of it being enforced, let alone regarding children distancing?  "Taking criminal action" haha that's simply a public threat, the cops are not in place to go around massaging everyone's shoulders for every little civil dispute.  If you think otherwise, you should definitely reconsider.

As for how did I expect the OP to work with the Mom?  I've already shared that in vivid detail about 2 or 3 times in this thread.  It's extremely simple, you cannot go to a stranger in a public space and demand something of them.  You can be civil, friendly, and ask them to do something out of respect, but they don't have to.  Come to me as a stranger and demand something of me and I'll laugh at you.  The mature solution would have been to ask her to keep distance, if not, take it upon yourself to leave.

Edited January 6, 2021 by Boosted52405

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 hour ago, Boosted52405 said:

As for how did I expect the OP to work with the Mom?  I've already shared that in vivid detail about 2 or 3 times in this thread.  It's extremely simple, you cannot go to a stranger in a public space and demand something of them.  You can be civil, friendly, and ask them to do something out of respect, but they don't have to.  Come to me as a stranger and demand something of me and I'll laugh at you.  The mature solution would have been to ask her to keep distance, if not, take it upon yourself to leave.

Funniest bit is the mum came to him,not the other way around 

[fcgamer | 4,723]

1 hour ago, Boosted52405 said:

Holy wall of text.  I'll keep it simple man, just because you would control your child in a particular way does not mean you can EXPECT another stranger to control their kid the same way.  Control what you can control, hence my feelings that if the OP was uncomfortable he had the liberty to get up and leave.  You'll continue to be disappointed in life if you expect people in life to behave like you - again, this is a public shared setting, this kind of stuff will happen frequently. 

The kid did not have to wear a mask, per the law.  The whole forum agrees with how the Mom should have behaved (mask & distance), but it doesn't justify the resulting behavior of the OP.  As for what the Mom said, we weren't provided any actual detail, yet the OP even agrees he went 0-100 in a matter of seconds.  What's wrong with being the bigger person and leaving, I ask?

As for your link that I said was a joke, absolutely it is - it's a State policy that is far more of a PR move than actuality.  Again, can you show me a single instance of it being enforced, let alone regarding children distancing?  "Taking criminal action" haha that's simply a public threat, the cops are not in place to go around massaging everyone's shoulders for every little civil dispute.  If you think otherwise, you should definitely reconsider.

As for how did I expect the OP to work with the Mom?  I've already shared that in vivid detail about 2 or 3 times in this thread.  It's extremely simple, you cannot go to a stranger in a public space and demand something of them.  You can be civil, friendly, and ask them to do something out of respect, but they don't have to.  Come to me as a stranger and demand something of me and I'll laugh at you.  The mature solution would have been to ask her to keep distance, if not, take it upon yourself to leave.

Just curious, who is more in the wrong, the OP or the mum, and why? Let's discuss.

[Boosted52405 | 178]

56 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Funniest bit is the mum came to him,not the other way around 

Actually no, funny enough, she went to a public park where people are expected to co-exist.  The OP has little to no entitlement in this situation, in which you're implying.

[Boosted52405 | 178]

55 minutes ago, fcgamer said:

Just curious, who is more in the wrong, the OP or the mum, and why? Let's discuss.

It's interesting that you'd like to instigate a separate conversation that the OP did not intend, the issue is that it's always going to come down to opinion on social expectations, since we've exhausted the legal aspects.  The OP was asking if he was over the line, so you can point the finger all over if you wish, not sure what you'll gain other to try and argue further.  I'm not really interesting in debating on who was "more" wrong, but here are some more forward-thinking ways to look at this.

1 - the Mom should have masked her kid and kept her kid at a distance proactively, given the obvious (pandemic) and out of respect of other park families.  I agree it's mind numbing she didn't do this.  Had she done this, all of this would have been avoided.

2 - the OP should have asked (not demand) the Mom if the kid had a mask, and if not, to respect distancing practices given the obvious (pandemic).  Beyond that, there is next to no entitlement.  Calling the cops for this manageable situation would be a notable waste of their time.

Both parents have wrongs in my opinion, but ask yourself, what are the kids going to remember the most?  They are going to remember the yelling, arguing, middle fingers, and that shit sticks with kids.  To allow an argument to occur with a random stranger in public is ridiculous IMO, you have no idea the mental health of strangers so do yourself a favor and avoid this kind of stuff (especially with little kids involved).  It's not about backing down or being a pussy, it's being smart.

Of course, this is all of my personal opinion.

[Link | 2,709]

...The ONS’s November Schools Infection Surveyof 105 schools saw 1.5 per cent of secondary level students testing positive for the virus, compared to 0.9 per cent of primary school pupils... Experts have speculated this shift may indicate the new variant of the coronavirus spreads more easily between children. 

https://www.sciencefocus.com/news/new-coronavirus-strain-children-hypothesis/